Dragon in Winterfell - What does this mean?

[Vanilla Fire]

As much as I love the theory of the northern dragon I have a tiny argument against it.

The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone.

I am no wolf, but if smoke and ash momentarily interfered with my vision it could result in a blur. People are known to assign meaning to randomly shaped clouds and a pillar of smoke above a flaming structure could, if you squint at it, look like a long, serpentine body.with wings. Also, there is no suggestion of movement. The snake 'is' in the sky.

Additionaly, the dragon interpretation assumed they are most snake-like in a wolfs perception, although I would envision a dragon more akin to a lizard. Wolves of the north may not know lizards, and a gliding one might seem like a snake, but my point stands.

Last of all, it took the 'dragon' a wolf baring his teeth to disappear. That is, an instant. Again, no suggestion of movement. It 'was no more'.

This all seems like a confused wolf perceiving a non-existant image for a flash second, reacting to it because it bears a remote resemblance to something dangerous. But it can possibly be something akin to the Bran-tree incident. If we assume that there is magic grounded in Winterfell, then we might have experienced it's release. If there is indeed a hidden dragon egg beneath it - we might have experienced it's dreams. That is - Summer saw the 'true nature' of the situation, rather than the obvious smoke and fire. It lasted a second, as the situation lasted a second - the magic was released, or the dragon within the egg returned to it's slumber

There is no shortage of red herrings in these books and as I mentioned - I love the theory, but analysing the very fragment we're discussing made me a skeptic.

[DaveRoid]

Are the hot springs still active in winterfell after it is burned?? I seem to remember boltons and co. being very cold when they settled in.

[Pod The Impaler]

This isn't a prophetic dream though. Bran is warging summer. I don't think there is any instance of prophetic visions occurring while warging.

And why not ? Perhaps his connection with Summer means when one has a prophetic or green dream, the other has it also (in their own way).

I always thought it was something symbolic, not literal.

[7V3N]

Are the hot springs still active in winterfell after it is burned?? I seem to remember boltons and co. being very cold when they settled in.

We do not know. Winterfell is colder, but that could be due to quite a few things:

• Winter is coming.
  
• The walls that had hot water flowing through them kept Winterfell warm, and now they are destroyed.
  
• There is no Stark in Winterfell?
  
• The walls are no longer there to keep the wind out.
  
• It was intensely snowing at Winterfell when the Boltons occupied it.
  

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

And why not ? Perhaps his connection with Summer means when one has a prophetic or green dream, the other has it also (in their own way).

I always thought it was something symbolic, not literal.

Why isn't it a prophet dream? Because he's warging summer :)

Find an instance where warging is prophetic.

[Tagganaro]

Most damning for the Winterfell Dragon, and this has already been said, but I find it strange that Bran wouldn't mention to any of the others that he saw a dragon. When he awakes he's very anxious to tell Osha about the burning castle and dead men...but makes no mention of seeing a dragon flying overhead? It seems simply unreal that that wouldn't rate as important enough for him to mention.

This is a very good point that I'm not sure I really thought of. You'd think that Bran would comment on this. Is there any explanation for why he wouldn't? Has it been discussed up-thread and I just forgot? Anyone have any reasons for that?

I kind of am beginning to feel like that with all the "waking dragons out of stone" talk and ice dragon talk, we are owed another birth of dragon scene. I'd feel kind of cheated (but equally impressed and would still find it awesome anyway) if this dragon birth was just an afterthought in a Bran/Summer wolf dream and has now been keeping a low profile in the North without even a mention in 3 books. When I think dragon, I want stupid slavers getting their faces burned off, not "I'm just gonna fly away and chill for a little while" lol.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

This is a very good point that I'm not sure I really thought of. You'd think that Bran would comment on this. Is there any explanation for why he wouldn't? Has it been discussed up-thread and I just forgot? Anyone have any reasons for that?

I mentioned that Bran has failed to mention important things before. Like that time he had a prophetic dream when he looked into the heart of winter that scared him out of a coma, yet never mentions it.

Darn kid is a vision miser!

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Also for damage caused by the potential release of the dragon. In some of the reek chapters the wreckage of a fallen tower is discussed. I can't remember the details but its one of the oldest towers, and it completely collapsed.

[7V3N]

While it is strange Bran would not bring up a dragon, he also had no idea what he was seeing. Winterfell destroyed? He must have been in shock after seeing that. Also, Bran has never once brought up the Heart of Winter since first seeing it. "That is why you must live." If that is why he needs to live, and he knows it, why would that not be on his mind ALL THE TIME?

[Dr. Pepper]

Also, Bran has never once brought up the Heart of Winter since first seeing it.

I think it's rather difficult to tell whether or not Bran told anyone about his first 3-eyed crow dream considering that chapter ends almost immediately after he woke up and the next one ends some weeks later. He certainly has been telling people, Maester Luwin in particular, about his crow dreams. “I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes." Luwin brushes these dreams off as just simply dreams.

The 'winged snake' vision was basically one that describes the destruction of Winterfell. He immediately tells his companions about this upon waking, describing blood, steel, dead animals and fire.

[SJC]

Why isn't it a prophet dream? Because he's warging summer

Find an instance where warging is prophetic.

This episode is simply the difference between prophecy and symbolism. Prophecy is a story within the story, and is known to the characters in the story. Symbolism is the author using a description to convey additional information to the reader or hint at something of additional weight than the simple image described. Summer's description of the burning of Winterfell, if it is anything other than the fanciful language of a wolf describing the fires (the winged snake) and smoke (gray cliffs devouring stars) the wolf does not understand, is symbolism from GRRM. In my view, for what it's worth, it symbolizes a Targaryen (Jon) rising from Winterfell. At any rate, Bran does not comment on the supposed dragon because the image is not meant for him, it is meant for us.

And to go back to an earlier question of interpretation, it was suggested (in response to my point that the gray cliffs devouring stars cannot be taken at face value, so the preceding clause in the sentence about a winged snake should not be taken as literally true) that:

The wolf's interpretation of the visual evidence is perfectly LITERAL. It is just not CORRECT.

To be sure, Summer's interpretation of what he sees is not correct, but that does not change anything. If he is wrong in interpreting the smoke from Winterfell's fires as gray cliffs devouring the stars, he can (and probably is) equally wrong in interpreting the fires themselves (or some component thereof) as a winged snake. If the reader should not believe Summer actually saw "gray cliffs" devouring stars, it is not clear why the reader should accept that Summer actually saw a "winged snake" (which we then further interpret to be a dragon). If Summer is unreliable, he is unreliable across the board due to the limitations on his perspective.

[redriver]

This episode is simply the difference between prophecy and symbolism. Prophecy is a story within the story, and is known to the characters in the story. Symbolism is the author using a description to convey additional information to the reader or hint at something of additional weight than the simple image described. Summer's description of the burning of Winterfell, if it is anything other than the fanciful language of a wolf describing the fires (the winged snake) and smoke (gray cliffs devouring stars) the wolf does not understand, is symbolism from GRRM. In my view, for what it's worth, it symbolizes a Targaryen (Jon) rising from Winterfell. At any rate, Bran does not comment on the supposed dragon because the image is not meant for him, it is meant for us.

And to go back to an earlier question of interpretation, it was suggested (in response to my point that the gray cliffs devouring stars cannot be taken at face value, so the preceding clause in the sentence about a winged snake should not be taken as literally true) that:

To be sure, Summer's interpretation of what he sees is not correct, but that does not change anything. If he is wrong in interpreting the smoke from Winterfell's fires as gray cliffs devouring the stars, he can (and probably is) equally wrong in interpreting the fires themselves (or some component thereof) as a winged snake. If the reader should not believe Summer actually saw "gray cliffs" devouring stars, it is not clear why the reader should accept that Summer actually saw a "winged snake" (which we then further interpret to be a dragon). If Summer is unreliable, he is unreliable across the board due to the limitations on his perspective.

Quality post right there.

[Erudain]

Are the hot springs still active in winterfell after it is burned?? I seem to remember boltons and co. being very cold when they settled in.

IIRC correctly Theon remarks about the hot springs still steaming when he was carrying Jeyne to the Heart Tree to get married.

[A Book Would Be My Sigil]

I don't think Bran was so deeply in shock he wouldn't realize he just saw a dragon. He comes back to himself in the crypts and

1 - realizing the import of what he has seen

2 - speaks clearly and coherently to Joren and

Meera

3 - makes the immediate call to tell Osha

4 - makes a clear report

5 - makes the decision they should go on up

And

6 - returns to Summer's head briefly to ascertain

it's daylight outside before they go up.

These don't seem like the actions of a bewildered, shell-shocked kid. He's upset, of course, but he's not incapable of recognizing what he saw and making competent decisions about their next moves.

As for the tower that collapsed, it's mentioned by Summer when it happens, but he mentions it after the winged flaming snake comment. Not "The man-tower crashed as a flaming flying snake burst out to rise into the sky."

And we don't know what the heart of winter is that Bran saw. It could be something that defies explanation. But Bran never mentions any of the things he saw in that coma dream. I think a likely explanation is that he doesn't really remember the entire contents of that first green dream the 3EC sent while he was in the coma. Just the overall feeling and the 3EC himself. Enough to help convince him to seek the 3EC.

But he didn't see sacked Winterfell in a green dream where points are open to interpretation or in a coma - he saw it through warging Summer right there in the present. I really believe Bran would have said something along the lines of "Oh, and let's all be real careful and maybe stick to traveling under tree cover because by the way, I saw a dragon take off out of the castle. So be prepared."

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

But he didn't see sacked Winterfell in a green dream where points are open to interpretation or in a coma - he saw it through warging Summer right there in the present. I really believe Bran would have said something along the lines of "Oh, and let's all be real careful and maybe stick to traveling under tree cover because by the way, I saw a dragon take off out of the castle. So be prepared."

Is it a single tower that has collapsed or several?

Bran has no reason to believe that Dragon's still exist though. He's been told that they've been extinct for hundreds of years and none of the essos rumors have reached him. He may have just discarded it like we do sometimes when we see something in the corner of our eye and look, finding out its nothing. In fact he sees it, reacts with a snarl, and then it's gone.

Also, he doesn't really come back by choice. He's shaken awake by Meera and Jojen hours after he sees the dragon. He's been warging for 3 days, and has not eaten. He can barely talk when they wake him up.

[CJ McLannister]

Bran has no reason to believe that Dragon's still exist though.

He's a kid. He has no reason to believe that 3-eyed crows exist either, but he talks about them all the time after seeing one in a dream.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

He's a kid. He has no reason to believe that 3-eyed crows exist either, but he talks about them all the time after seeing one in a dream.

He doesn't catch a fleeting glimpse of the 3 eyed crow. It talks to him and appears in several of his dreams. Surely you see the difference.

[Tuor]

I believe that there will be a dragon in Winterfell in the near future, perhaps Dany burns down Winterfell again for some reason and that is how the days of her ending will begin...

A time for wolves

[CJ McLannister]

He doesn't catch a fleeting glimpse of the 3 eyed crow. It talks to him and appears in several of his dreams. Surely you see the difference.

Sure. But I also believe that Bran believed in dragons, and magic, and Children of the Forest, and grumpkins, and various other things from Nan's stories regardless of what spoilsports like Maester Luwin told him.

[protar]

But he didn't see sacked Winterfell in a green dream where points are open to interpretation or in a coma - he saw it through warging Summer right there in the present. I really believe Bran would have said something along the lines of "Oh, and let's all be real careful and maybe stick to traveling under tree cover because by the way, I saw a dragon take off out of the castle. So be prepared."

You point out that as he's warging not green-dreaming the things Bran sees aren't subject to interpretation. But then you go and refute the dragon that he sees.