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Dragon in Winterfell - What does this mean?


Boromir-Bloodstorm

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Sure. But I also believe that Bran believed in dragons, and magic, and Children of the Forest, and grumpkins, and various other things from Nan's stories regardless of what spoilsports like Maester Luwin told him.

But I don't think we ever hear of Old Nan telling him dragon stories. Maybe the common tales that all children hear, but he liked the scary ones. The ones of winter, death, and fear. Those are the ones he clung to.

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He lives in a world where there were (irrefutably) dragons in the past. He knows that. Doesn't he even think about the dragons that came to the wall when they're at Queenscrown? At that point, he doesn't think, just like that dragon I saw back at Winterfell?

I can't offer an explanation for what Summer/Bran saw, and I admit the possibility that Bran was not really conscious of wht he saw, but if he knew it was a dragon, I don't see him just never going back to that.

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You point out that as he's warging not green-dreaming the things Bran sees aren't subject to interpretation. But then you go and refute the dragon that he sees.

But they are clearly subject to interpretation, because he's seeing these through the eyes of Summer who describes swords as "man-claws" and all sorts of other wolf-speak for normal things. Judging it through that prism, it becomes very possible that a flaming winged snake that just sort of disappears, especially when that's described as Summer's eyes are covered by smoke and ash, could be referring to anything under the sun. It could be a dragon of course, but it could also just as easily be a flaming arrow, or the comet, or a burning building that resembles a dragon.

I'm not buying the explanation that Bran is in shock either, and thus wouldn't think to mention it. He's had more than enough time, even if he was in shock originally, to digest what he saw, and think "Holy Shit, I just saw a supposedly extinct creature fly away from beneath what used to be my home, to probably wreak all sorts of havoc on the North".

If it was actually a literal dragon that Bran/Summer saw, that doesn't leave much up to interpretation. Bran knows that a dragon escaped from Winterfell then. And he hasn't seen fit to mention it once, even in his own personal thoughts?

This to me actually remains the biggest stumbling block to the "Dragon is real" theory. I don't think the Heart of Winter is quite the same. Bran is dreaming and has no idea what he's actually seeing. The Heart of Winter leaves a lot open to interpretation, it's possible that Bran doesn't even know what he really saw. With the dragon, you'd think it would be much simpler. As I said, it's not open to interpretation if it's a literal dragon.

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Trying to decide whether Bran *would* mention a dragon is fruitless imo, GRRM could have had him say any one thing, but he didn't and that's it, Bran says and does whatever GRRM feels like, realism will always have to make room for entertainment in a situation like this, and seeing how much discussion it has sparked, I think GRRM made the right call.

The same goes for dragons, if GRRM wants them cagey, with enough to eat, they will be cagey with enough to eat.

Personally, I can not see the arrow thing, why fire flaming arrows when the whole place has been on fire for a while?

Unless it matches something big timeline wise, I have trouble seeing any symbolical significance in it.

Sometimes a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame is just a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame.

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This to me actually remains the biggest stumbling block to the "Dragon is real" theory. I don't think the Heart of Winter is quite the same. Bran is dreaming and has no idea what he's actually seeing. The Heart of Winter leaves a lot open to interpretation, it's possible that Bran doesn't even know what he really saw. With the dragon, you'd think it would be much simpler. As I said, it's not open to interpretation if it's a literal dragon.

All very true, but in regards to the Heart of Winter:

This was Bran's defining moment. He hoped for death until then. "Now you know why you must live." The 3EC seemed to believe the message was made clear to Bran. Bran then has a complete change in how he sees his life. He must live and accepts a destiny beyond Winterfell.

Yet, we hear no more of this defining moment. Though, we know it must be on his mind for every second after leaving Winterfell. He knew his destiny--that is why Osha and Rickon did not go with him. There were better, safer places to go, but Bran's destiny was in the North.

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I just have to add, I liked your old avatar a gazillion times better ;)

Haha in some ways I did too. A fox has always been the animal I associated with. Sly, silent, deadly. But I figured it was too distant from myself. My new name reflects my real name (upside down, it spells NEAL). Also, in the absence of Breaking Bad, I figured a Boardwalk Empire theme would work well. This one will have to do until/if I make a Richard drawing or something. As of now, my classes have kept me far too busy for my side art projects :(

But sorry to disappoint :P

ETA: Plus, I haven't been overly fond of the avatar since I made a gif--with dark clouds moving through the picture and the eyes glowing/fading red-- that wouldn't work here (though I suppose I should have tried again after the server issues were fixed).

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All very true, but in regards to the Heart of Winter:

This was Bran's defining moment. He hoped for death until then. "Now you know why you must live." The 3EC seemed to believe the message was made clear to Bran. Bran then has a complete change in how he sees his life. He must live and accepts a destiny beyond Winterfell.

Yet, we hear no more of this defining moment. Though, we know it must be on his mind for every second after leaving Winterfell. He knew his destiny--that is why Osha and Rickon did not go with him. There were better, safer places to go, but Bran's destiny was in the North.

Fair enough. I suppose Bran's immediate journey is only to the 3EC though, so that's all he needs to care about. The whole "Heart of Winter" thing is incredibly vague and generalized, whereas the 3EC and presumably what would be an actual Dragon would strike me as more concrete and immediate- Thus they would be talked about a lot like the 3EC.

But yeah, I agree that the fact the Heart of Winter has not really been talked about could also be interpreted your way.

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I take this at face value, that Summer saw a dragon. What dragon, where it came from, who knows? More will be revealed.

I have to agree.

Which could point to Bran being Azor Ahai. His re-birth coming after the fall from the tower, the smoke and salt coming from his mother's tears and the burning library. And then the Winterfell dragon being woken from stone. Also, when Melisandre asks to see Azor Ahai in her flames the first person she sees is Bran with the Last Greenseer, she then goes on the see Jon. I have to admit,it is a bit crackpot!

The dragon is real though!!

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Ok, since this has been settled can we get a mod to close it?

Seriously though, if you want to be involved try moving the thread forward in some way, no matter what your opinion is. We are all seeking the same answer, regardless of how we interpret the scene.

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Also, he doesn't really come back by choice. He's shaken awake by Meera and Jojen hours after he sees the dragon. He's been warging for 3 days, and has not eaten. He can barely talk when they wake him up.

I think you may have a point here, but I'm still skeptical based on how lucid he is about the other things he saw. But I know how cranky and distracted I am after not eating for a much shorter period of time. :)

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You point out that as he's warging not green-dreaming the things Bran sees aren't subject to interpretation. But then you go and refute the dragon that he sees.

I can actually see how you might get that from what I typed, but that's not what I meant.

I'm not refuting that he saw a "winged snake" whose roar was fire - I'm refuting that that (in all probability) translates to "dragon". I don't refute the "grey cliffs eating the stars" that he saw - I just think the better interpretation is that he saw smoke blocking the stars. I don't refute that he saw iron man claws - I just think it more likely that means swords rather than Wolverine.

See what I mean? What I was saying is that we get a mix of Summer's thinking and Bran's since they're sharing a body/brain. But Bran comes back and interprets what he saw for Osha and the others and he never mentions a dragon. I just think that's strange.

(But my heart hopes hopes hopes I'm wrong.)

Edited for typos.

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The thing is though - he doesn't describe the grey cliffs eating the stars, he says "behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars", he also doesn't say iron man claws, he says "not even the cold smell of iron, the stuff of man-claws and hardskin". Summer knows what fire, smoke and iron are - he uses expressions such as claws and hardskin to describe the use of the iron in the same way as the use of the "roar" and the "river of flame" to describe the dragon's breath.

You're right though, Bran fails to mention any sight of a dragon to the others! But then again he's never mentioned the first dream he had to anyone, where he sees dragons in Asshai and what lies behind the curtain of light at the end of the world in the far north.

I think that because this takes place early on in Bran's warging career he is more wolf than Bran, so isn't interested in the detail - Jojen states to Bran later to mark a tree whilst in Summer's skin but Bran keeps forgetting. I don't think Bran really remembers the details of his experiences at this point so doesn't mention the dragon. Just the overall theme of the experience - after all, he'd been warged for 3 days and was quite delerious when he came back to his own body.

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I reckon the dragon was one of King Jahaery's 6 that he bought to Winterfell when he visited the north with Queen Alysanne. As part of his discussions and planning with the Lord Stark of the time, he left a dragon at Winterfell to hibernate until it was needed and doubled the size of the Gift as per Queen Alysanne's suggestion.

More recent Kings seem to have ignored the Nights Watch and left them to rot, unlike King Jahaery's. I believe he may have had a "Targ dream" that showed him that the prince that was promised would be connected to the Starks in some way(Jon Snow), so he decided to leave a dragon at Winterfell to help him fight the Great Other.

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But they are clearly subject to interpretation, because he's seeing these through the eyes of Summer who describes swords as "man-claws" and all sorts of other wolf-speak for normal things. Judging it through that prism, it becomes very possible that a flaming winged snake that just sort of disappears, especially when that's described as Summer's eyes are covered by smoke and ash, could be referring to anything under the sun. It could be a dragon of course, but it could also just as easily be a flaming arrow, or the comet, or a burning building that resembles a dragon.

I'm really not buying that Summer saw something that just happened to look like a dragon but wasn't. The northern forces had already left IIRC correctly, which means no flaming arrows, which is the only thing that he could possibly mistake for a dragon (And even that would be incredibly unlikely.). At every other point in the wolf dreams, the descriptions match up to what's actually being described. Even when things are very abstract like grey cliffs devouring the stars, it still correlates to smoke covering up the night sky. That's what it would look like to a wolf who doesn't understand smoke or stars as we do. But you and others, would have us believe that in this single instance, that rule is thrown away and Summer quite clearly sees a dragon where there is none. If his vision was clouded by smoke, how can he give us such a specific description? What is the narrative point of the description if it's just a flaming arrow? And how can it be a prophecy as some people say when we've never seen prophecy merged with wolf dreams before? And what purpose would said prophecy serve? The only options are:

A: Martin is trolling us

B: Martin is being inconsistent in how he's portraying the wolf dreams.

C: Summer actually saw a dragon.

I have enough respect of Martin's writing skills to discount A and B so to me the answer is clear.

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I'm really not buying that Summer saw something that just happened to look like a dragon but wasn't. The northern forces had already left IIRC correctly, which means no flaming arrows, which is the only thing that he could possibly mistake for a dragon (And even that would be incredibly unlikely.). At every other point in the wolf dreams, the descriptions match up to what's actually being described. Even when things are very abstract like grey cliffs devouring the stars, it still correlates to smoke covering up the night sky. That's what it would look like to a wolf who doesn't understand smoke or stars as we do. But you and others, would have us believe that in this single instance, that rule is thrown away and Summer quite clearly sees a dragon where there is none. If his vision was clouded by smoke, how can he give us such a specific description? What is the narrative point of the description if it's just a flaming arrow? And how can it be a prophecy as some people say when we've never seen prophecy merged with wolf dreams before? And what purpose would said prophecy serve? The only options are:

A: Martin is trolling us

B: Martin is being inconsistent in how he's portraying the wolf dreams.

C: Summer actually saw a dragon.

I have enough respect of Martin's writing skills to discount A and B so to me the answer is clear.

:agree:

I think we have to use some logical deduction here! If the "thing" that Summer saw was not a dragon, what was it? And, more to the point, why did GRRM put that line in the chapter?

I can't really see it being a prophetic vision. It just doesn't have any use or relevance.

I can't see it being a flaming arrow as flaming arrows don't roar, have wings or look like snakes.

I can't see it being a gargoyle of Winterfell falling from a tower, it just doesn't fit the description.

I can't see it being a falling tower or building, again, doesn't fit the description.

I can't see it being a literary device or why would we be here debating it.

I can see it being a dragon.

It was a dragon!! And I can't wait for it to start burning the hell out of Freys!! :drool:

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