(SPOILERS ADWD) The Nasty Tourn-ey of Events at Harrenhal

[MtnLion]

You mean to say Doran was a bastard? That would surprise me greatly.

You mean to say Doran is a bastard? That would greatly surprise me.

And, you know that he isn't? Who was his father, then? I see that his mother was "A princess of Dorne" and that she was a lady in waiting to Rhaella.

But, I have been waitng, oh so patiently, for someone to suggest that Dorne has different mores, before I sprung that Ashara was from a Dornish house. :P

[Jem]

And, you know that he isn't? Who was his father, then? I see that his mother was "A princess of Dorne" and that she was a lady in waiting to Rhaella.

But, I have been waitng, oh so patiently, for someone to suggest that Dorne has different mores, before I sprung that Ashara was from a Dornish house. :P

Just because we don't know the name of his father doesn't mean that he is a bastard. We don't know the name of Ned's mother either, but we assume that she was someone married to Rickard and not some camp follower he knocked up.

And yes Dorne has different mores, but to claim that their Prince is a bastard is too much of a stretch. Even if bastards are tolerated better in Dorne, their Prince is someone who is going to have to mingle with royalty and other high lords from the other parts of Westeros. Surely Doran's mother had enough sense to know that making the leader of Dorne a bastard (and herself as the leader of Dorne a 'loose' woman) would be counter-productive when trying to liaise with the other leaders of the country.

[MtnLion]

Just because we don't know the name of his father doesn't mean that he is a bastard. We don't know the name of Ned's mother either, but we assume that she was someone married to Rickard and not some camp follower he knocked up.

And yes Dorne has different mores, but to claim that their Prince is a bastard is too much of a stretch. Even if bastards are tolerated better in Dorne, their Prince is someone who is going to have to mingle with royalty and other high lords from the other parts of Westeros. Surely Doran's mother had enough sense to know that making the leader of Dorne a bastard (and herself as the leader of Dorne a 'loose' woman) would be counter-productive when trying to liaise with the other leaders of the country.

I agree with the rationalization, but there is no such data in hand. She is represented as a single mother, and Lewyn Martell was her brother. Her children could have been legitimized by her brother . . . Her brother could have fathered them, as well. It would not be the first time we have seen a brother sister relationship.

[Jem]

I agree with the rationalization, but there is no such data in hand. She is represented as a single mother, and Lewyn Martell was her brother. Her children could have been legitimized by her brother . . . Her brother could have fathered them, as well. It would not be the first time we have seen a brother sister relationship.

How could her children have been legitimized by her brother? He has no right to do that, only the king can do that.

And now Doran is not just a bastard, but an incest-born bastard? I'm sorry but I think that you have well and truly drifted across the crackpot line.

How do you mean she is represented as a single mother? Do you mean that there is no one listed on her family tree as being her husband? She is nowhere near the only character who has a spouse that we don't know about and the family trees are nowhere near complete for any family.

[corbon]

I agree with the rationalization, but there is no such data in hand.

Irrelevenant. Most minor characters don't have such data simply because it isn't necessary to the story. Take Edric Dayne for example. We've never heard he even had a mother and we don't know his fathers name. Perhaps he had no mother at all! :bang:

She is represented as a single mother, and Lewyn Martell was her brother.

No she is not represented as a single mother. Her husband is simply not mentioned. Thats a very different thing. There is not the slightest indication she was a single mother.

Her children could have been legitimized by her brother . . .

Did someone go and make him king now?

Her brother could have fathered them, as well. It would not be the first time we have seen a brother sister relationship.

Yeah, right.

This one's a lot closer to visceral. Then check it with the brain and, no the visceral reaction was right.

Take a step back and look at what you are saying and the total lack of evidence for it.

When someone goes this far its a clear indication they have totally lost the plot.

[MtnLion]

Dorne is . . . different.

Okay, you guys are right:

Aerys is not a rapist.

No one feared to say, "nay," to Aerys.

Aerys being at Harrenhal was not as bad as Barristan thinks.

Ashara had a stillborn daughter, but there is no father listed, so we don't know. :P

Or, maybe Barristan is confused, and Ashara was not dishonored at all.

No way that a pregnant Ashara could stay with Elia.

Barristan is thoroughly unreliable, so we need to discount all that he says, even internally.

Or, just maybe the theory works out. We have limited knowledge of the workings of Westeros, and we know that in spite of some aspects being similar to our historical knowledge, there are others that are not. We need to work from the evidence within the book, not our own perceptions, but the perceptions of the Point of View characters. That requires deducing their background and perspective.

From what I have seen thus far, there is no textual evidence against the theory.

[MtnLion]

I'm probably just really dense here, but I have missed which other ladies in waiting stayed on after they were known to have bastards and affairs?

Maybe I am dense, in Westeros what ladies in waiting have been dismissed after they were known to have bastards and affairs?

[MtnLion]

No she is not represented as a single mother. Her husband is simply not mentioned. Thats a very different thing. There is not the slightest indication she was a single mother.

Doran's mother is not shown to have been married in the family tree. We have other marriages that at least show an unknown male or female as wedded parent, but in this case there doesn't seem to have been a marriage referenced. So, there is not the slightest indication that she was married.

But this is blasting past the point that it is likely that Ashara at least delivered in King's Landing to have Selmy recall a stillborn girl. If she delivered in King's Landing, my bet is that it is after she delivered that she returned to Starfall.

[corbon]

Doran's mother is not shown to have been married in the family tree. We have other marriages that at least show an unknown male or female as wedded parent, but in this case there doesn't seem to have been a marriage referenced. So, there is not the slightest indication that she was married.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

She is not presented as unmarried. Her marital status is simply not presented at all. Its not the same thing.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Maybe I am dense, in Westeros what ladies in waiting have been dismissed after they were known to have bastards and affairs?

I have no idea and I fail to see why that question was directed at me as I never asserted the existence of such ladies. You on the other hand claimed that there have been ladies in waiting who weren't dismissed and used that as evidence for your theories. At that point I still believed you were trying to present a serious argument, but couldn't figure out who you were talking about, so I just asked who you were thinking of (actually believing that there was probably someone really obvious that I missed).

It's not my fault that I did not know you were just making stuff up, so I don't see the reason for blowing snark in my direction.

[Ludd]

Suggest you all look up the rather beautiful, sad and true song "Mary Hamilton" - It addresses the issue of bastards, kings and ladies in waiting.

"Last night there were four Marys. Tonight there'll be but three. There was Mary Heaton and Mary Seaton and Mary Carmichael and me"

[MtnLion]

We know that Ashara left King's Landing before the end of the war. We hear that she has been dishonored at Harrenhal. Barristan also recalls that she had a stillborn daughter, but that would not be likely for him to know if she had left King's Landing before giving birth. Also, we know that Harrenhal Tourney was held in the year of the false spring. I find it very unlikely that Ashara traveled through the Prince's Pass to get to Starfall, while pregnant in the winter. Therefore the odds are that she did give birth at King's Landing. Perhaps she was dismissed afterwards, and traveled home when the weather was good, again.

[corbon]

We know that Ashara left King's Landing before the end of the war. We hear that she has been dishonored at Harrenhal. Barristan also recalls that she had a stillborn daughter, but that would not be likely for him to know if she had left King's Landing before giving birth. Also, we know that Harrenhal Tourney was held in the year of the false spring. I find it very unlikely that Ashara traveled through the Prince's Pass to get to Starfall, while pregnant in the winter. Therefore the odds are that she did give birth at King's Landing. Perhaps she was dismissed afterwards, and traveled home when the weather was good, again.

First, there is no reason Barristan could not know about her daughter if she was away. He could have asked Arthur, for example.

Second, seasons can last a long time. And even 'winter' apparenatly has its seasons so it could very well be 'winter's summer' at the right time. We also don't know enough about the climate, heighet, etc of Prince's Pass. Its well in the south. Is it difficult to pass through during winter? Who knows? And why not take a ship?

But I do see your points. I just don;t think they are very strong given the great deal we don;t know about to rule out Ashara leaving court when disgraced.

Somehow "You are in disgrace and dismissed from court, but we'll let you hang about anyway" doesn't hold water.

[MtnLion]

Yes, you are correct, we don't know enough about conditions of Prince's Pass during winter, or even how the weather pattern for the winter following the false spring would have played out. I visualize the false spring being in April-June timeframe, and we would have a very harsh autumn that is wintery, of the same year to meet the classification. Indeed, if a woman were to get pregnant in April she is due to deliver in December-January, the height of winter.

I think that Ashara served at Elia's pleasure. Elia could well have prevented her from leaving, too. Perhaps because they both discovered their pregnacies at the same time, and Elia needed the care. If Ashara remained in Elia's chambers for the duration of Elia's pregnancy (and hers) no one else need know.

Barristan probably could have inquired from Ser Arthur of his love's pregnancy and resolution, but that does not seem appropriate to me. Learning of a stillborn daughter sounds like first-hand knowledge, at least to me.

[thepooperthatwaspromised]

rhaegar and ashara are having an affair.

ashara may or may not be pregnant yet.

rhaegar names lyanna the "queen of love and beauty", thereby "dishonoring" her.

ashara turns to ned stark, who at the time is a free agent, and IMO, wouldn't dismiss her even if he knew she had already lost her "maidenhead". ned falls for her.

ashara does get pregnant by rhaegar, either by the time of the tourney or afterwards.

ashara returns to starfall and the war breaks out.

due to the events of the war, by the end of it not only does she lose her brother, but her child needs to disappear as well, and ned must now marry cat. in one fell swoop she loses her brother, elia, rhaegar, her child, ned.

pretty good reason to jump if you ask me.

and barristan can still consider ned is an honorable man, while lamenting that ashara had not turned to him instead.

possible? why not?

proof?not until GRRM says so.