(SPOILERS ADWD) The Nasty Tourn-ey of Events at Harrenhal

[Grizzly Mormont]

If Barristan dishonored Ashara, why would beating Rhaegar in the final joust to crown Ashara matter to him?

I think because it would have been a way for Barry to publicly and honorably profess his love for her without breaking his vows. I don't really know, as we all agree, the paragraph quite ambiguous.

I think its bizarre how it switches from third person to first person then back to third person in the last two sentences. I have no clue why Barry would say 'the man that dishonored her" if he knew who it was. However, we have seen some occasions where a person will refer to his past self as a different entity, like that priest guy who says the persona of the hound is dead, but maybe not sandor. Also, Jon Snow says something to the effect of Jon Snow would let Gilly keep her baby, but the Lord Commander cannot.

If this was something that truly haunted Barry as his greatest failure, it's possible hes repressed it to the point that it helps to just say "the man who dishonored her" instead of "when I dishonored her" (or the name of whoever it really was).

[Belandra Waters]

If this was something that truly haunted Barry as his greatest failure, it's possible hes repressed it to the point that it helps to just say "the man who dishonored her" instead of "when I dishonored her" (or the name of whoever it really was).

I just don't agree that Barristan could be the one who "dishonored" Ashara. Why do you think he's a better choice?

My arguments against:

Barristan thinks to himself:

"She died never knowing that Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy."

If Barristan truly had been the one that dishonored her, to think of himself as sworn to celibacy seems silly. An argument that he had sworn to take no wife, etc., would make more sense.

If it's Barristan, you don't really have any other storylines intersecting with his. It doesn't really even affect Barristan's storyline: we don't see him making any different choices because of any lesson he learned concerning Ashara. We see him full of regrets and guilt, but not so much that we see any evolution in his thinking, or questioning of his oathtaking, or questioning his king's actions.

On the other hand, if it's Aerys, we have the brother of Ashara, Arthur Dayne, best friend of the Crown Prince, (presumably) informed but unable to do anything. This incident may well be the proverbial straw that united at least 3 of the KG in supporting Rhaegar's plan to depose his father.

If there actually is a baby who survived, having Barristan as the father means nothing to the storyline. If it is Aerys' child, it could mean everything.

For all the setting up for Aerys' attendance at the tourney: "suddenly decided to accompany" "everything went awry", something had to have happened there. The KoLT story is important but it probably would have played out much as it did, with or without Aerys in attendance. IMO, that event that would not have happened had Aerys not been in attendance, was the rape of Ashara Dayne.

[Grizzly Mormont]

I just don't agree that Barristan could be the one who "dishonored" Ashara. Why do you think he's a better choice?

My arguments against:

Barristan thinks to himself:

"She died never knowing that Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy."

If Barristan truly had been the one that dishonored her, to think of himself as sworn to celibacy seems silly. An argument that he had sworn to take no wife, etc., would make more sense.

If it's Barristan, you don't really have any other storylines intersecting with his. It doesn't really even affect Barristan's storyline: we don't see him making any different choices because of any lesson he learned concerning Ashara. We see him full of regrets and guilt, but not so much that we see any evolution in his thinking, or questioning of his oathtaking, or questioning his king's actions.

On the other hand, if it's Aerys, we have the brother of Ashara, Arthur Dayne, best friend of the Crown Prince, (presumably) informed but unable to do anything. This incident may well be the proverbial straw that united at least 3 of the KG in supporting Rhaegar's plan to depose his father.

If there actually is a baby who survived, having Barristan as the father means nothing to the storyline. If it is Aerys' child, it could mean everything.

For all the setting up for Aerys' attendance at the tourney: "suddenly decided to accompany" "everything went awry", something had to have happened there. The KoLT story is important but it probably would have played out much as it did, with or without Aerys in attendance. IMO, that event that would not have happened had Aerys not been in attendance, was the rape of Ashara Dayne.

Yeah, I definitely see your point, and think you're right in the above, especially the part about barry's plot development. However, I think if he broke his vow of celibacy though, just the once under Ashara's spell, he'd be pretty ashamed of it... so ashamed he'd tell her he did not love her, even though he did. Also, I think if the king raped a prominent house's daughter at the largest tournament ever, the world would have heard about it.

but, plenty of things went awry that don't have anything to do with ashara:

1. Most obviously, just Aerys showing up ruined Rhaegars plan's for a council to depose him.

2. Rhaegar crowned Lyana instead of his wife, pissing off almost everyone.

3. Aerys then made Jaime kingsguard, pissing off and totally alienating Tywin, the person who was de facto ruling the realm. Moreover, he did this just to spite Tywin, we've heard, and deprive him of his heir.

Had Tywin been in control, is it likely that Robert would have been so successful? I don't really think so, but who knows.

[Belandra Waters]

Yeah, I definitely see your point, and think you're right in the above, especially the part about barry's plot development. However, I think if he broke his vow of celibacy though, just the once under Ashara's spell, he'd be pretty ashamed of it... so ashamed he'd tell her he did not love her, even though he did.it.

It could be...

Also, I think if the king raped a prominent house's daughter at the largest tournament ever, the world would have heard about it.

It all depends, I guess. Ashara may not have told anyone, the KG should not have told anyone, Aerys probably didn't. So unless someone overheard and spread the rumor, it may not be as likely as all that. I think that Barristan knew only because he was the KG on duty that night (or day).

[Bloodraven's Eye]

dont know if anyone said this yet buttt .. given that aerys rapes her, and she gets pregnant, and she carries the baby to term, the baby probably was born with targ features (violet eyes from asahra and aerys and some light colored hair). if as varys says baby aegon was replaced who's to say its not with this baby that was a product of rape. Ashara looks to stark for comfort. ned stark in my opinion because they shared a dance and ned is a good, quite, honorable, sweet man. she can't go to her brother who is sworn to protect the king. this is also a reason i think ned hates jaime so much. i think ned wanted to take king's landing and kill aerys for murdering his father and brother and dishonoring the woman he loved. and jaime took that away from him. and then the rape and murder of elia and her children probably sickened him more. little does he know that the dead infant in front of him is ashara's bastard. switch a bastard for a king. and hide a king as a bastard (if you prescribe to R+L=J). definitely something GRRM would do. ned leaves king's landing, lifts the siege at storms end, stops at starfall? goes with a small trusted squad to the tower of joy and holds lyanna wile she dies in her bed of blood and roses (he sees R+L=J lya says he's the prince he tells her the other children were killed to which she promises me ned etc), definitely goes back to starfall (presumably with baby jon), tells ashara that lannisters killed baby aegon? wouldn't she have said something? wouldn't ned know about the switch if he trusted her/wylla with the jon secret. maybe he did know. maybe that's one of the secrets he kept for all these years. one of the lies that aren't without honor. either way ashara vanishes. did she still want ned at that point? did she say stay down here and we can raise jon as our own? did ned think about it? I am of the north he would have said. and so is jon. so ashara is not a virgin, her baby was murdered (and depending on what varys told her who knows if she thought the baby was alive and safe if she even knew herself if there had been a swap), the man she loves cant be with her, what is she to do? join the faith mayhaps? i actually dont really like the septa lemore = ashara theory, but it would come so very full circle is she helps raise the boy who her son died for...the end

[MtnLion]

The problems that I see here are that Barristan remembers that Ashara had a stillborn daughter. So, we have a dead girl-child to account for. I believe that Ashara and Elia colluded to switch their babies when Elia delivered a stillborn daughter. Ashara's healthy baby boy was a stand-in for the baby that Rhaegar expected, and note that he would be happy for a male child.

Ned remembers just one time that he broke his honor, not multiple. I attribute that one breaking of his code in obscuring Jon's parentage to protect him and all of the Starks.

With Aegon in truth being Aerys' and Ashara's bastard then it is possible that Daenerys can expose this, fulfilling that prophesy. Varys thinks that he saved an (the) heir. What really merits some thought in the whole scenario with Elia and Ashara is whether they could have pulled off the baby switch. I see very small hints that Rhaegar and Ser Arthur may have known or suspected the babies were switched. (The change in Rhaegar's expression and things that were not said in Daenerys' vision of him Elia and Aegon in the House of the Undying.)

[7V3N]

I have often wondered if it was Rhaegar himself looking for the right bloodline of Azor Ahai to recreate the forging of Lightbringer (which I believe to be a story of childbirth). Dayne would be an obvious choice, given the whole 'Sword of the Morning' thing. Then Stark would be another one, since the Long Night was (supposedly) a predominantly Northern issue and the Starks have long been the rulers in the North.

[MtnLion]

I have often wondered if it was Rhaegar himself looking for the right bloodline of Azor Ahai to recreate the forging of Lightbringer (which I believe to be a story of childbirth). Dayne would be an obvious choice, given the whole 'Sword of the Morning' thing. Then Stark would be another one, since the Long Night was (supposedly) a predominantly Northern issue and the Starks have long been the rulers in the North.

From what we see of Rhaegar it does not seem likely that he was making the eight, as Robert does. In fact it seems that he is unhappy that there should be a third yet Elia's second left her in no condition to have any further children. I think that Rhaegar honorably courted Lyanna after Elia had become unfit for further childbearing.

[7V3N]

From what we see of Rhaegar it does not seem likely that he was making the eight, as Robert does. In fact it seems that he is unhappy that there should be a third yet Elia's second left her in no condition to have any further children. I think that Rhaegar honorably courted Lyanna after Elia had become unfit for further childbearing.

I don't mean it like he was going around as a swinger. I meant it for a higher purpose--a connection to all of these prophecies he invested in. He knew he would have a son meant for a great destiny, but he just needed to find his Nissa Nissa.

ETA: Elia, Lyanna, and Ashara all had connections between death and childbirth. Lyanna died giving birth (who I think was the correct choice of his Nissa Nissa), Ashara supposedly died by her own hand because of her child's death, Elia nearly died after birthing Aegon and would likely have died if she gave birth to another.

[MtnLion]

It still doesn't hold water for me that Rhaegar would have been responsible for Ashara's dishonor. Barristan in his internal monologue should name Rhaegar, but instead he says "man". Barristan also expresses his feelings about Ashara, and if someone had dishonored Ashara Barristan would have pursued full knowledge. There can only be one reason that he would not lay the blame, at least internally, where it belongs.

ETA: clarity

[MtnLion]

I also think that the incident of Harrenhal was the deciding factor for Arthur Dayne to throw his lot in with Rhaegar. I think that before this, he was willing to bide his time, knowing that sooner or later, Aerys would die and Rhaegar would ascend the throne. The rape of his sister by Aerys would seem to explain his apparent change of heart and I'm not so sure that he would behave the same way if he was aware of Rhaegar's actions toward his sister.

Yikes, this triggered another thought! Ser Arthur is Rhaegar's best friend, os so we hear from Jon Connington. Rhaegar is riding into battle at the Trident. So, why is Ser Arthur at the Tower of Joy? This could be caused by Ser Arthur's knowledge of his sister's treatment. He most certainly wouldn't stay at the Tower of Joy if Rhaegar had dishonored Ashara, would he? But, if Aerys has dishonored his sister, he is going to stay as far away from King's Landing as he can until the next coronation.

[7V3N]

Dishonored is from Barristan's POV.GRRM hinted at coming revelations about Arthur Dayne and Rhaegar. Will add more soon since im posting from my phone.

[Belandra Waters]

Yikes, this triggered another thought! Ser Arthur is Rhaegar's best friend, os so we hear from Jon Connington. Rhaegar is riding into battle at the Trident. So, why is Ser Arthur at the Tower of Joy? This could be caused by Ser Arthur's knowledge of his sister's treatment. He most certainly wouldn't stay at the Tower of Joy if Rhaegar had dishonored Ashara, would he? But, if Aerys has dishonored his sister, he is going to stay as far away from King's Landing as he can until the next coronation.

That's what I think!

[7V3N]

In the context, any man who sleeps with a highborn woman out of wedlock, takes her maidenhood, and/or impregnates her is dishonoring her. Also, Rhaegar seemed rather secretive so I doubt Barristan would know, especially since Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar's man in the Kingsguard.

_______

Now, bear with me. It's about to get complex.

This is my interpretation of the story of the forging of Lightbringer (from a thread theorizing Tyrion, Dany, and Jon are the heads of the dragon partly due to their mothers dying while birthing them:

I had this theory as well, and it is part of why I believe the story of Nissa Nissa is a story of child birth and the importance of bloodlines (which GRRM has hinted at being very significant):

• Water can be a few things. It could be Tully, Greyjoy or some house associated with water like them. What I think, though, is that it is metaphorical for common blood. Water is everywhere, in everyone, and need by everyone. Water cannot be controlled nor denied to anyone. Water represents the blood of a commoner, "waterblood" as opposed to wolfsblood or the blood of the dragon.
  
• The lion represents a Lannister, or another highborn lion-associated house like the Reynes. The significance being noble blood, old blood kept pure through strategic marriages.
  
• Then Nissa Nissa, his wife who we only know to have had a weird name. Azor Ahai was said to have had a "heavy heart" for he knew what he must do (bring the death of his wife). It seems to me that AA sort of had an inevitable feeling that it would have to be her.
  

This is also why I think Rhaegar sought different women to birth his son, Lightbringer. Combine this with the theory that Lightbringer is the Night's Watch, but apply it to a certain young man in the Night's Watch named Jon Snow, son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. He is the sword in the darkness.

I think Arthur knew something about Rhaegar's plan, and that is why he may have "convinced" Ashara to sleep with Rhaegar (we get constant references about how Rhaegar was irresistibly handsome) to try to bring about Lightbringer (who may also be The Prince Who Was Promised, given Rhaegar thought Aegon was PWWP). I think Rhaegar was searching for the right bloodline to produce Lightbringer and it just took a few tries before he got it right with Lyanna.

Here is GRRM on Arthur Dayne:

Arthur Dayne has been presented as the quintessential chivalrous knight. How could he support the atrocities of Aerys, that even Jaime was horrified by?

Well... keep reading.

[Belandra Waters]

dont know if anyone said this yet buttt .. given that aerys rapes her, and she gets pregnant, and she carries the baby to term, the baby probably was born with targ features (violet eyes from asahra and aerys and some light colored hair).

I think you're probably right that a baby of Aerys and Ashara would have the violet eyes, it they are both carrying doube-recessive genes for eye color. The light-colored hair is probably not more than a 50/50 possibility as we know that Ashara had dark hair; so. possible, if she carries the recessive gene for light hair.

if as varys says baby aegon was replaced who's to say its not with this baby that was a product of rape. Ashara looks to stark for comfort. ned stark in my opinion because they shared a dance and ned is a good, quite, honorable, sweet man. she can't go to her brother who is sworn to protect the king. this is also a reason i think ned hates jaime so much. i think ned wanted to take king's landing and kill aerys for murdering his father and brother and dishonoring the woman he loved. and jaime took that away from him. and then the rape and murder of elia and her children probably sickened him more. little does he know that the dead infant in front of him is ashara's bastard. switch a bastard for a king. and hide a king as a bastard (if you prescribe to R+L=J). definitely something GRRM would do.

You could very well be correct in your view of Ned and his desire for revenge. I think his biggest problem with Jaime, even though Ned agrees with Robert that Aerys needed to be killed, is that Jaime, a knight of the kingsguard, was the one who did the slaying, breaking his vows in the process.

ned leaves king's landing, lifts the siege at storms end, stops at starfall? goes with a small trusted squad to the tower of joy and holds lyanna wile she dies in her bed of blood and roses (he sees R+L=J lya says he's the prince he tells her the other children were killed to which she promises me ned etc), definitely goes back to starfall (presumably with baby jon), tells ashara that lannisters killed baby aegon? wouldn't she have said something?

I agree with your timeline of events. I think Ashara was likely the one who revealed the location of Lyanna at the ToJ also. Whether Ashara confided in Ned, who's to say? I don't recall him reflecting on anything like that, but that doesn't mean it's not possible.

wouldn't ned know about the switch if he trusted her/wylla with the jon secret. maybe he did know. maybe that's one of the secrets he kept for all these years. one of the lies that aren't without honor. either way ashara vanishes. did she still want ned at that point? did she say stay down here and we can raise jon as our own? did ned think about it? I am of the north he would have said. and so is jon. so ashara is not a virgin, her baby was murdered (and depending on what varys told her who knows if she thought the baby was alive and safe if she even knew herself if there had been a swap), the man she loves cant be with her, what is she to do? join the faith mayhaps? i actually dont really like the septa lemore = ashara theory, but it would come so very full circle is she helps raise the boy who her son died for...the end

I'm not convinced there was a huge love story going on between Ashara and Ned...there may have been a mutual attraction, but the only interaction at the tourney that we know of is one dance. I can see Ned, with his honor, offering to make an 'hones't woman out of Ashara knowing that his father, Rickard, would not be opposed to such a match. While Ned's intention may have been to marry her, the murder of Brandon necessitated Ned's marriage to Catelyn. Ned may have stopped at Starfall the first time to say "good-bye" to Ashara and then learned of Lyanna's location. I haven't really thought that through, but it seems reasonable to me at this point.

Or she helps raise her own son (who was switched by Varys and smuggled out safely just before the sack of KL).

[MtnLion]

Here is GRRM on Arthur Dayne:

GRRM said:

Arthur Dayne has been presented as the quintessential chivalrous knight. How could he support the atrocities of Aerys, that even Jaime was horrified by?

Well... keep reading.

Let me submit that the line was delivered by the White Bull to Jaime when Rickard was being burned and Brandon was being strangled, "we are not here to judge them, just protect them."

[Jem]

It still doesn't hold water for me that Rhaegar would have been responsible for Ashara's dishonor. Barristan in his internal monologue should name Rhaegar, but instead he says "man". Barristan also expresses his feelings about Ashara, and if someone had dishonored Ashara Barristan would have pursued full knowledge. There can only be one reason that he would not lay the blame, at least internally, where it belongs.

ETA: clarity

Let me submit that the line was delivered by the White Bull to Jaime when Rickard was being burned and Brandon was being strangled, "we are not here to judge them, just protect them."

Who is the "them" that is being referred to? Obviously the royal family. For that reason I think that Barristan would be just as unlikely to name Rhaegar in his thoughts as he would Aerys.

[therustman]

While a nice fitting little theory I can't see it, there is very little evidence of any answers.

Barristan could have found out Ashara was dishonoured as she was pregnant - this kind of gives the game away that she had unmartial sex, in whatever form, I read it as more consenual than rape but just how I saw it - why would Barristan not have referred to rape certainly when thinking about her death. Why would Ashara be thinking of the man that dishonoured her, this suggests an interest in him.

It is Barristan's internal dialouge so there is no need for him not to name the man in order to protect them as no one would hear. No doubt for the reason to keep us guessing. This appears to be the main evidence for it being Aerys.

Ned is not married at this time nor is he bethroned. It is as plausible that he fell for Ashara and then couldn't marry her due to being bethroned to Catelyn. It could have been this event that reinforced the need to be honourable to him.

[Belandra Waters]

In the context, any man who sleeps with a highborn woman out of wedlock, takes her maidenhood, and/or impregnates her is dishonoring her. Also, Rhaegar seemed rather secretive so I doubt Barristan would know, especially since Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar's man in the Kingsguard.

_______

Now, bear with me. It's about to get complex.

This is my interpretation of the story of the forging of Lightbringer (from a thread theorizing Tyrion, Dany, and Jon are the heads of the dragon partly due to their mothers dying while birthing them:

I think Arthur knew something about Rhaegar's plan, and that is why he may have "convinced" Ashara to sleep with Rhaegar (we get constant references about how Rhaegar was irresistibly handsome) to try to bring about Lightbringer (who may also be The Prince Who Was Promised, given Rhaegar thought Aegon was PWWP). I think Rhaegar was searching for the right bloodline to produce Lightbringer and it just took a few tries before he got it right with Lyanna.

Here is GRRM on Arthur Dayne:

I know it took some time and effort for you to respond here, so I don't want to just ignore it.

I am not knowledgable enough about the Lightbringer, AAR or PtwP theories to add anything to your reasoning. I cannot create any interest in myself for these storylines, so have very little to draw on. I read other posters' arguments on here and draw my conclusions from that.

I will say, though, that I don't think the reason that Rhaegar and Lyanna took off together was to fulfil any prophecy.

[MtnLion]

While a nice fitting little theory I can't see it, there is very little evidence of any answers.Barristan could have found out Ashara was dishonoured as she was pregnant - this kind of gives the game away that she had unmartial sex, in whatever form, I read it as more consenual than rape but just how I saw it - why would Barristan not have referred to rape certainly when thinking about her death. Why would Ashara be thinking of the man that dishonoured her, this suggests an interest in him.

If he just deduces that Ashara was dishonored by her appearance, how would Barristan know that it was at Harrenhal?

It is Barristan's internal dialouge so there is no need for him not to name the man in order to protect them as no one would hear. No doubt for the reason to keep us guessing. This appears to be the main evidence for it being Aerys.

I believe that it his years of practice at not divulging the king’s secrets that causes him to withhold the name in his internal monologue. I do point out that he is vague where he needs not be vague, which is a huge red flag, because he most assuredly has reason to know; his fondness for Ashara.

Ned is not married at this time nor is he bethroned. It is as plausible that he fell for Ashara and then couldn't marry her due to being bethroned to Catelyn. It could have been this event that reinforced the need to be honourable to him.

So, you are assuming that Ned dishonored Ashara? Then why would everyone think that Ned is so honorable? Ned is not a candidate in my mind, otherwise Ser Barristan is not going to be as friendly with him later. Ser Barristan is viewing the timeframe of Ashara’s suicide and looking backward at what could have been done to change that outcome. It certainly was the key turning point, in his monologue, that Aerys decided to go to Harrenhal.