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The Promised Prince

Jon Snow's Death?

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Why did anyone assume that Jon Snow is dead? Yes he was repeatedly stabbed but that doesn't say he's dead right? They might miss the important organs or anything but what I'm saying is there is still possibility that Jon is alive just in a very bad state. Hell there are news where guys get stabbed 10 times yet still lived. Why does anyone assume he's dead already? Am I missing something?

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Of course he could be dead. Four stabbings are normally not lifesavers you know. And it's not like GRRM doesn't kill of protagonists or people you really don't expect to die, Think of Ned Stark and the Red Wedding for example.

However, his story isn't over yet. That's why a lot of people think he isn't dead, but merely in a bad, really bad state. Perhaps a coma. But we won't find out until the next book. I won't believe he's dead until someone says so in the books.

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Well, until someone whose perspective we can trust says so in the books. GRRM already pulled that trick with Davos, so I wouldn't put it past him to do that again. At the moment, Jon's state is extremely vague. He could be dead, he could be in bad shape, or he could be UnJon. *shiver* I really hope he isn't UnJon. There are just so many zombies already.

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Well, until someone whose perspective we can trust says so in the books. GRRM already pulled that trick with Davos, so I wouldn't put it past him to do that again.

Still, the actual attack and the stabbings were told from Jon's own POV, so it's not as if they didn't happen... I personally believe he's D.E.A.D but if it turns out to be otherwise - not including zombie or otherwise "resurrection by lady in red" - I'm definitely prepared to accept it with joy.

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Well it is a cliffhanger. At the beginning of hios last chapter, Jon is surrounded by enemies, and I am not referring to Stannis and Melissandre. He is LC but made dubious decisions. Wildlings are in NW, spearwives, even a giant. Then there is the fact that he is assisting Stannis, like it or not. And his House is nearly extinct and wants to save Arya and Ramsay is threatening him and he realises that he needs people like Donal Noye and Maester Aemon and Halfhand and Jeor Mormont. Sam, his only true friend is far away. And then he is stabbed. And then his chapter ends. It is the same thing with Jaime Lannister. In DwD he has only one chapter, and it ends with Brienne telling him that she found Sansa and she is with the Hound. When I finished reading the chapter I thought that Jaime wouldn't necessarily follow Brienne and later, Cersei mentions that Jaime was last seen in Riverlands following Brienne. Did he found Uncat? Was he executed? His faith is like Jon's uncertain.

People speculate that Jon will warg into Ghostor that Melissandre will kiss him. UnJon? A possibility but I hope that he is severely wounded but alive, with no magic involved.

So far, WoW feature pov's by :

  1. Aeron
  2. Sansa
  3. Arya
  4. Arrianne
  5. Theon
  6. Victarion

Honestly, I was looking forward for a Jon or Jaime or Brienne pov because I want to see what happened to them. But will George give anything away? Not until WoW reach the bookstores. Honestly, the moment I get the book, first thing I do is look for a pov from those three characters.

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Well plots and story telling aside, if someone gets stabbed mutiple times untill they pass out (in an environment with very limited medical aid) death would be more probable than life.

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Still, the actual attack and the stabbings were told from Jon's own POV, so it's not as if they didn't happen... I personally believe he's D.E.A.D but if it turns out to be otherwise - not including zombie or otherwise "resurrection by lady in red" - I'm definitely prepared to accept it with joy.

Oh, they totally happened, I'm not denying that! I suppose I can be a little clearer: Until we hear that Jon is dead from someone's POV who has seen the body and knows for certain that it is Jon, I'm not putting him out for the count. If we just hear somebody saying that somebody told them that their aunt from Mole Town heard that Jon Snow is dead, I'll still be skeptical after the Davos is dead/Davos lives thing.

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Why did anyone assume that Jon Snow is dead? Yes he was repeatedly stabbed but that doesn't say he's dead right? They might miss the important organs or anything but what I'm saying is there is still possibility that Jon is alive just in a very bad state. Hell there are news where guys get stabbed 10 times yet still lived. Why does anyone assume he's dead already? Am I missing something?

The fact the chapter ends with "he never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold..." leaves most people speculating he's either dead, or passed out and dying.

Of course, you're totally right, he might not be dead from the wounds he's received. He gets, in order,

1) A cut to the throat from Wick Wittlestick that "barely grazed his skin"

2) A dagger in the belly from Bowen Marsh

3) A third dagger between the shoulder blades, from an unknown unassailant, unlikely to be Bowen Marsh since it seems to have come from behind.

4) And the fourth knife he doesn't feel.

Assuming Jon is accurately relating his wounds (we can't know for sure unfortunately), wound #1 and wound #2 are unlikely to be as serious in the short term as wound #3, which appears to have gotten Jon in the back.

Wound #4 is a mystery, since we don't know where/how bad it is, or maybe if it even existed and was just a rhetorical flourish to obfuscate (ie; he never felt a fourth knife, only cold, because there was no fourth knife). If it did occur, it's unlikely to be good, since Jon is face down in the snow at this point, meaning he'd be pretty easy to stab in vulnerable areas.

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Great insight guys, but most people I see here in the boards always asume he's dead/UnJon/dead and will be resurrected.

What about the possibility that he lived and had help (Mel / random wildling)? It's chaos out there before he even got stabbed.

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As I see it one of the following can happen :

1) Jon is wounded and not dead. But why and how? Who would save him? If the people who stabbed him want him dead won't they finish the job? He lies amongst enemies severely wounded so who would save him and in time to be able to recover?

2) Jon is dead and is resurrected by Melisandre. IMO the worst case senario. We see how are the people who came back to life (Dondarion, Catelyn).

3) Jon wargs in Ghost. That's fine and probable. But then what? He lives for ever as a wolf? He wargs another body? Does he even know haw to do that? And even if he does it's unlikely for him to succeed where even Varamyr failed, a much more experienced skinchanger. Also I can't imagine Jon "wearing" a different face.

4) Jon dies. This I find interesting. It would be in consistence to Martin's writing and as I've said before ASOIAF isn't a Cinderella story, I would like to see Jon dieing without learning the truth about his parentage.

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As I see it one of the following can happen :

1) Jon is wounded and not dead. But why and how? Who would save him? If the people who stabbed him want him dead won't they finish the job? He lies amongst enemies severely wounded so who would save him and in time to be able to recover?

2) Jon is dead and is resurrected by Melisandre. IMO the worst case senario. We see how are the people who came back to life (Dondarion, Catelyn).

3) Jon wargs in Ghost. That's fine and probable. But then what? He lives for ever as a wolf? He wargs another body? Does he even know haw to do that? And even if he does it's unlikely for him to succeed where even Varamyr failed, a much more experienced skinchanger. Also I can't imagine Jon "wearing" a different face.

4) Jon dies. This I find interesting. It would be in consistence to Martin's writing and as I've said before ASOIAF isn't a Cinderella story, I would like to see Jon dieing without learning the truth about his parentage.

1.) Jon is wounded and not dead because he got stabbed while wearing a lot of clothing, an angry giant, hundreds of Wildlings and most Black Brothers are loyal and ~2m away from his body.

2.) Funny thing about Wildlings and Watch: They have a history with the dead rising and would take action to prevent that.

3.) Terribly unlikely.

4.) That would waste the entire Wall storyline, one of the three main plots and apparently the most important one. No other POV could take over.

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As I see it one of the following can happen :

1) Jon is wounded and not dead. But why and how? Who would save him? If the people who stabbed him want him dead won't they finish the job? He lies amongst enemies severely wounded so who would save him and in time to be able to recover?

A possible answer to the third question;

Bowen Marsh and his conspirators (from what we see, only stewards like Wick) appear to have taken advantage of the chaos from Wun Wun killing Ser Patrek to attempt to assassinate Jon. This suggests their conspiracy has no support outside these stewards, and that they have to try and act before anyone can intervene. Elsewise, why have stewards like Bowen Marsh and Wick Wittlestick do the deed? They're not fighters, and they very nearly botch the attempt. Why not get a single Ranger in on the fun? Likely because they can't, because Bowen Marsh doesn't have any pull outside the Stewards.

So it may be that even with the chaos, someone in the busy yard may notice Jon's being attacked, and intervene. It's still very unclear how hurt Jon is from this attack, and whether or not he's died or passed out. You make the point this would be consistent with Martin's writing style for this to be the end of Jon, but I disagree. Martin loves the end of chapter death fakeout. Some examples include:

  • Davos' last chapter in ACoK, where he witnesses from closeby the Blackwater being consumed by fire.
  • Arya being hit in the head with an axe at the Red Wedding.
  • Ned being attacked by Jaime Lannister in AGoT.
  • Brienne being "hung" in AFFC.
  • Asha being beneath "the blow that would finish her" in ADWD at Deepwood Motte.

Etc. It could go either way with Jon honestly, but I'd hardly be surprised live or die.

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1.) Jon is wounded and not dead because he got stabbed while wearing a lot of clothing, an angry giant, hundreds of Wildlings and most Black Brothers are loyal and ~2m away from his body.

2.) Funny thing about Wildlings and Watch: They have a history with the dead rising and would take action to prevent that.

3.) Terribly unlikely.

4.) That would waste the entire Wall storyline, one of the three main plots and apparently the most important one. No other POV could take over.

If Jon was stabbed and just wounded and will survive without warging into Ghost or being resurrected then wthat was the purpose of the stabbing?

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If Jon was stabbed and just wounded and will survive without warging into Ghost or being resurrected then wthat was the purpose of the stabbing?

To increase the likelihood people buy the Winds of Winter to find out what happened to Jon.

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Several things to point out here.

1) Martin promised Jon would find out his parantage. Up till no he hasn't.

2) Martin said in an interview we all shouldn't be so sure he was dead (set up the second cliffhanger).

3) Jon's parantage, whether you're a fan or not of him or the plot, is one of the pillars of the series. Jon dead=dead is pretty anti-climatic and lame from a plot point of view.

4) There are no major POVs left at the Wall itself. There are numorous possibilities to rectify this. Bran seeing events through weirwood vision (he's currently physically a long distance from the Wall). Mel getting way more screentime (she only has one POV on her name now). Samwell Tarly coming back to the Wall (this would have to take a while as he is still in Oldtown). Other characters coming to the Wall, like Davos or Arya (this seems unlikely now). New characters getting POVs (Stan, Seleyse, Shireen, Tormund, Wun Wun...). All in all it seems easier to just keep Jon's POV alive.

5) Jon's skinchanging abilities is developing rapidly. He is now able to warg into Ghost during daytime while awake. It stands to reason he will at the very least warg into Ghost right after the assault.

6) Martin made it a point to describe various forms of undeath and ressurrection. Red Mel is a Red Priest, and while we don't see her actually performing the Kiss of Life like Thoros of Myr did, she is a blood magic practicer. His body does not need to mauled now, as Tormund's men should be relatively close by and Wun Wun is a bit pissed off.

7) He could theoretically survive the attack. He's wearing thick clothing. Real life people have survived assassination attempts due to wearing thick enough clothing. Besides his assailants weren't known for their combat prowess. Julius Caesar was stabbed dozens of times but because the senators were hardly warriors only a few were actually fatal. And he was wearing a toga not a leather jerkin and thick overclothes.

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If Jon was stabbed and just wounded and will survive without warging into Ghost or being resurrected then wthat was the purpose of the stabbing?

Showing his leadership problems? Showing the closemindedness of some southron fools? Breaking the Wall?

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If Jon was stabbed and just wounded and will survive without warging into Ghost or being resurrected then wthat was the purpose of the stabbing?

Erm to kill Jon? But not all assassination attempts go through right? I mean it's chaos out there, you never know what's gonna happen next, Jon might die or he might live. What I'm pointing out here was how people easily writes him off as already dead.

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I think this event will draw Jon Snow--if he survives or becomes UnJon-- far more closer to Melissandra, much to dismay of lots of folks here. She saw the daggers in her fires, she warned him about his death by people close to him and keeping ghost close.

I can even forsee sexual relations between the two if she saves him which will result in another shadow baby. She talks to him about man and women being together for Rahllor and how his shadow & fire was very big--lol--, looked like she was hitting on him and Jon mistakes her for Ygriti one time.

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I'm gonna admit that I have a theory that maybe affects my judgement in this. Martin said in an interview that somehow Lady's death will have an impact on Sansa's life, so I wonder whether this impact would be actually good.

Dragons were lost, direwolves were lost, the Others were gone, magic was lost. One comes back and cause all others to return to the world. IMO for one last battle before the world moves on to a different era, kinda like LotR. I believe that Daenerys will eventually perish with her dragons and so will all the Stark children with their direwolves in order to move forwoard to an era without magic. Sansa will be the one to live because she has no longer a connection with the magic world which as the CotF is fading.

A bit off topic so excuse me.

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