Jon Snow's Death?

[Summer is Ending]

The first stab was a flesh wound. He takes one in the midsection and one in the back, and the fourth is up in the air. People have survived worse, bearing in mind that he also would have been wearing thick layers because of the cold.

Well he thinks it was just a graze. I guess people think his burns had just gone stiff and that's why he had trouble grabbing Longclaw? It's also possible that neck wound was worse than he thought and he was going into shock.

[sifth]

Getting stabbed 3-4 times?! Pretty obvious. People just can't let Jon go.

Davos was lit on fire, Cat had her neck cut, Brienne was hung from a tree, do you notice a pattern here, ha ha ha

[WakeTheDragon]

Davos was lit on fire, Cat had her neck cut, Brienne was hung from a tree, do you notice a pattern here, ha ha ha

Undead people don't count that's unnatural. Being distinctly stabbed not once but multiple times is a little more final.

[Lord Ben]

Undead people don't count that's unnatural. Being distinctly stabbed not once but multiple times is a little more final.

More final than an axe to the head from the Hound? I know people who were stabbed, there are a lot of non-vital areas of the body.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Undead people don't count that's unnatural. Being distinctly stabbed not once but multiple times is a little more final.

Bran was pushed off the top of a tower and survived and he was a young child. Arya took a blunt ax handle/side to the head from an enormous man and wasn't the worse for wear.

Northerners are hard to kill. :P

[WakeTheDragon]

More final than an axe to the head from the Hound? I know people who were stabbed, there are a lot of non-vital areas of the body.

Sure but we have emergency rooms. Is they're even a maester at the wall right now? It's not out of the question but 3-4 stab wounds in pretty serious. It's a typical Martin twist killing off a very likeable point of view character when no one expects it. Clearly it's worked because no one is willing to accept that he's dead. Robb was stabbed but we all accept he died. What's the difference?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Sure but we have emergency rooms. Is they're even a maester at the wall right now? It's not out of the question but 3-4 stab wounds in pretty serious. It's a typical Martin twist killing off a very likeable point of view character when no one expects it.

Who has he killed when it wasn't expected? Robb's death, for instance, was shocking in how it unfolded, but his demise was telegraphed a mile away, foreseen by at least 3-4 prophetic sources, depending on your interpretation.

Clearly it's worked because no one is willing to accept that he's dead. Robb was stabbed but we all accept he died. What's the difference?

Another POV character actually saw Robb die, and we have repeated confirmation of his death. You don't die and stay dead in your own POV. Robb's situation isn't anything like Jon's.

[Lord Ben]

He had a sword stuck through his heart and we saw the aftermath. Fade to Blacks have been reserved for people who live. It's not typical Martin at all to be shifty about a death. When they actually die he's quite clear about it.

[Stannis the Wight]

Jon Snow ain't dead what's so hard to believe about that? He's in bad shape but he ain't dead.

Davos, Brienne, Theon are characters who everyone thought died but survived.

"Oh you think he's dead do you?" - GRRM himself

[Wanderer]

I'm not sure either way but the whole sequence of events feels very bizarre. Between Jon wondering why no one could see that Wun Wun was hurt, Wick backing away gesturing "not me" and the clumsy fingers.....something is not right here. It almost feels like Jon's perception of the situation has been altered in some way. It lacks clarity from the start.

[Wanderer]

Btw - wasn't Ghost behaving strangely towards Jon as well? It just has an hallucinatory vibe to it...everything just feels.....weird.

[Stannis the Wight]

Btw - wasn't Ghost behaving strangely towards Jon as well? It just has an hallucinatory vibe to it...everything just feels.....weird.

Ghost was acting very aggressively much like Grey Wind was acting very aggressively when he sensed his owner/other half was in danger. Ghost knew some shit was about to go down but Jon (he knows nothing) kept him away because he didn't want Ghost and that boar fighting, I forgot who it was but one of the wildlings had a boar that he could warg and Ghost never liked him. I won't lie it does have a sort of dreamy vibe to it but I believe that what went down is accurate. Also Jon could have been wearing chainmail, boiled leather etc. to minimize the damage. Didn't he go to the armory before the big announcement? If he had Longclaw on him and was ready to ride to Winterfell I can see it being very likely that he was wearing mail at least.

IMO it's the aftermath of his stabbing when the REAL shit goes down.

[Wanderer]

Ghost was acting very aggressively much like Grey Wind was acting very aggressively when he sensed his owner/other half was in danger. Ghost knew some shit was about to go down but Jon (he knows nothing) kept him away because he didn't want Ghost and that boar fighting, I forgot who it was but one of the wildlings had a boar that he could warg and Ghost never liked him. I won't lie it does have a sort of dreamy vibe to it but I believe that what went down is accurate. Also Jon could have been wearing chainmail, boiled leather etc. to minimize the damage.

The aftermath of his stabbing is when the REAL shit goes down.

Totally makes sense. I forgot about Grey Wind. Great catch! I also think it happened for sure, I'm just curious about our perception about what happened. But yeah, Wun Wun and the Wildings are about to bust heads either way!

[WakeTheDragon]

Who has he killed when it wasn't expected?

Ned and Catlyn. Million other point of view characters.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Ned and Catlyn. Million other point of view characters.

You must have missed the part where the Ghost of High Heart predict Catelyn's death, pretty plain as day. Like I said, maybe the manner/timing of the Red Wedding was shocking, but those deaths were pretty clearly called.

As for Ned, again, something shocking in its manner and brutality, but still, given the circumstances, the only logical outcome.

"Million other point of view characters"? Like who?

[WakeTheDragon]

You must have missed the part where the Ghost of High Heart predict Catelyn's death, pretty plain as day. Like I said, maybe the manner/timing of the Red Wedding was shocking, but those deaths were pretty clearly called.

As for Ned, again, something shocking in its manner and brutality, but still, given the circumstances, the only logical outcome.

"Million other point of view characters"? Like who?

Your telling me the first time you read the books you weren't absolutely floored that Ned was kiled or when the Red Wedding happened? Sorry don't believe you. If that were the case you wouldn't have enjoyed the books to the point of discussing them on an online forum. What separates these books from other works of fantasy is the real feel to them, major characters being constantly killed off so the reader can never rely on their heroes making it through to the end.

As far as other major characters who died unexpectedly there's Joffrey, Oberyn, Ser Rodrik, everyone else at the Red Wedding, the old bear, Viserys, Renly, Balon, Drogo, Tywin, Lysa Tully for starters.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Your telling me the first time you read the books you weren't absolutely floored that Ned was kiled or when the Red Wedding happened? Sorry don't believe you. If that were the case you wouldn't have enjoyed the books to the point of discussing them on an online forum. What separates these books from other works of fantasy is the real feel to them, major characters being constantly killed off so the reader can never rely on their heroes making it through to the end.

I think you're overestimating the number of people that GRRM has actually killed, at least in the POV department. But, uh, thanks for trying to tell me the proper way to enjoy the books? As if there's a right way and a wrong way? :bs:

When people are having dreams about Robb bleeding, about dead fish women, about bloody kings and dead guys with wolf heads, yeah, I have to say that I think you could have seen Robb's death coming, and Catelyn's too. Being "floored" about something is not the same as not expecting it. You can still be floored by Robb's death while at the same time knowing it was going to happen.

As far as other major characters who died unexpectedly there's Joffrey, Oberyn, Ser Rodrik, everyone else at the Red Wedding, the old bear, Viserys, Renly, Balon, Drogo, Tywin, Lysa Tully for starters.

And each and every one of those people were unambiguously killed, which is our point. Joffrey died of poisoning in front of us, Rodrik was cut down, Viserys killed with molten gold, Lysa tossed out the Moon Door, Tywin shot with a crossbow. No fade to black, no cliffhanger, no ambiguity. There was no question whatso-goddamn-ever what had happened to any of them. Just, BOOM, dead. So again, not comparable to Jon in any way.

[WakeTheDragon]

I think you're overestimating the number of people that GRRM has actually killed, at least in the POV department. But, uh, thanks for trying to tell me the proper way to enjoy the books? As if there's a right way and a wrong way? :bs:

When people are having dreams about Robb bleeding, about dead fish women, about bloody kings and dead guys with wolf heads, yeah, I have to say that I think you could have seen Robb's death coming, and Catelyn's too. Being "floored" about something is not the same as not expecting it. You can still be floored by Robb's death while at the same time knowing it was going to happen.

And each and every one of those people were unambiguously killed, which is our point. Joffrey died of poisoning in front of us, Rodrik was cut down, Viserys killed with molten gold, Lysa tossed out the Moon Door, Tywin shot with a crossbow. No fade to black, no cliffhanger, no ambiguity. There was no question whatso-goddamn-ever what had happened to any of them. Just, BOOM, dead. So again, not comparable to Jon in any way.

You should just write your own books since your so genius that you knew every major twist was going to happen before it did. Thanks for chipping in captain hindsight.

[DaveSnow House Stark]

Ok, not sure where I fall in on this. You can see certain things coming in the books. The blow to Arya's head?? Really, did anyone really think he was killing her? He was protecting her and it was plain to see. The RW, well I knew it was going to be bad, I didn't expect everyone to die but when his wolf was acting up and he chose to leave him behind it was the same as "going to see what that noise was" in a teen slasher movie, you could almost hear the music! As for Jon, I am leaning toward that not being him that is getting stabbed. I am thinking it is a glamour, which accounts for his wolfs behavior, the slow reaction and "dreamy" feel for the scene. Now, I would also believe he will warg out if it is him, but he is definitely not dead.

[Summer is Ending]

Ok, not sure where I fall in on this. You can see certain things coming in the books. The blow to Arya's head?? Really, did anyone really think he was killing her? He was protecting her and it was plain to see. The RW, well I knew it was going to be bad, I didn't expect everyone to die but when his wolf was acting up and he chose to leave him behind it was the same as "going to see what that noise was" in a teen slasher movie, you could almost hear the music! As for Jon, I am leaning toward that not being him that is getting stabbed. I am thinking it is a glamour, which accounts for his wolfs behavior, the slow reaction and "dreamy" feel for the scene. Now, I would also believe he will warg out if it is him, but he is definitely not dead.

No I actually did, I was thinking well there goes half the family in one night. It was a lot less absurd than thinking a man charging on a horse could swing an axe so delicately that he only gives someone a minor bump on the noggin.

Now I know better, now I understand the force field protecting Arya. But back then. Yeah, I absolutely believed she bought it.