Jon Snow's Death?

[Jon Reborn]

On the UnJon theories, that his personality will somehow change as a result of dying and being resurrected . . .

I know GRRM doesn't think resurrection should come without consequences to the target, but it's already happened once in this book. Dany's dragon eggs were dead, petrified. Yet a blood sacrifice brought them back from the dead and made them hatch. I know dragons aren't people, and we don't get a Drogon POV so we can't tell if he's damaged from his resurrection, but on the surface the dragons appear to act like normal dragons. So perhaps there's a slim chance this will be used as a precedent to bring Jon back to life.

Feel free to rip this to shreds!

Rather than rip it to shreds, I will say that I like your thinking. I think Jon warging into Ghost will serve to help preserve his personality/soul/whatever you would like to call it. I'm thinking his consciousness can move back into his own body after it is repaired or resurrected.

I hope he's back soon, because I don't want to read an entire book without old Jonny-boy in it. Feast was bad enough (although I enjoyed it much better on a re-read, after I had accepted the fact that Jon wasn't in it).

[Jon Reborn]

His name was Jon

it rhymes with gone

Blasphemer!!!

;)

[Jon Reborn]

Well I had to laugh at Brienne of Tarth being "hung"

That is all.

Except that I will be extremely irritated if Jon owes his life to Melisandre. I am sick to my backside of her, her ridiculous god, her murderous religion and its neverending prophecies.

Ya, like a tapestry, right?

I'm with you about Mel. I just hope that if she brings Jon back he doesn't feel too indebted to her ("thanks, but now I have business to attend to..."). Or that something goes wrong. Such as when Beric gave Cat the kiss of life, and then died for good.

[kephv]

(as you all know he is always dreaming of going to the crypts below winterfell but always "wakes up" before he is able to discern anything.), and as his body is prepared to be burned and is burned for fear of it rising to become a wight,

This reminded me of Arya's remembering Jon in the crypts of Winterfell:

“ 'This is where the dead walk.' That was when they heard the sound, low and deep and shivery. Baby Bran had clutched at Arya’s hand.

When the spirit stepped out of the open tomb, pale white and moaning for blood."

Foreshadowing that Jon will become a wight or like coldhands? Even if not, I definitely think the bastard's going to be a bit more blood thirsty.

[Jon Reborn]

This reminded me of Arya's remembering Jon in the crypts of Winterfell:

“ 'This is where the dead walk.' That was when they heard the sound, low and deep and shivery. Baby Bran had clutched at Arya’s hand.

When the spirit stepped out of the open tomb, pale white and moaning for blood."

Foreshadowing that Jon will become a wight or like coldhands? Even if not, I definitely think the bastard's going to be a bit more blood thirsty.

I like your thinking! Good catch btw, I had forgotten about that.

I'm hoping for a little more bloodthirsty out of him as well.

[kephv]

Well, GRRM has said that he'll become a bit greyer -- and there's a lot people now that Jon would be willing to take his anger out on.

[Dolorous Nedd]

Well, GRRM has said that he'll become a bit greyer -- and there's a lot people now that Jon would be willing to take his anger out on.

He said that about Jon? I find it hard to believe he would totally give away that Jon will be alive.

[Pugsley]

Well, GRRM has said that he'll become a bit greyer -- and there's a lot people now that Jon would be willing to take his anger out on.

People like to use that statement as evidence that Jon will return as a changed man, but surely GRRM was talking about ADWD? I find it hard to believe he'd be discussing Jon post-ADWD, as that would be rather spoilerific.

I'm hoping for a little more bloodthirsty out of him as well.

Please no. There are already so many bloodthirsty characters.

[kephv]

I find it hard to believe he would totally give away that Jon will be alive.

Actually, I can't seem to recall if I saw this in an SSM or if this was just something I heard around here.

However, he has said that Jon would find out who his parents are at some point -- kind of hard if you're dead.

EDIT:

People like to use that statement as evidence that Jon will return as a changed man, but surely GRRM was talking about ADWD? I find it hard to believe he'd be discussing Jon post-ADWD, as that would be rather spoilerific.

Why? He showed about the same level of morality that he always showed in Dance.

Please no. There are already so many bloodthirsty characters.

Please yes. He needs to put that uptight honor behind him and embrace his inner bastard -- the one that fantasizes about his family members dying when they piss him off.

[Dolorous Nedd]

Actually, I can't seem to recall if I saw this in an SSM or if this was just something I heard around here.

However, he has said that Jon would find out who his parents are at some point -- kind of hard if you're dead.

Good point there!

[Dolorous Nedd]

If Jon is dead and brought back or saved in some way I think there's as much chance it will be something that Bloodraven does as Melisandre. Out of all the hanging loose ends at the end of ADWD this is the one I most want to see resolved.

[Pugsley]

Why? He showed about the same level of morality that he always showed in Dance.

Some would consider swapping babies and preparing to march on Winterfell as something the earlier Jon wouldn't do.

Please yes. He needs to put that uptight honor behind him and embrace his inner bastard -- the one that fantasizes about his family members dying when they piss him off.

So the message here is, you can't succeed unless you're violent and ruthless? There's no place in Westeros for "good guys"?

[Dolorous Nedd]

Some would consider swapping babies and preparing to march on Winterfell as something the earlier Jon wouldn't do.

So the message here is, you can't succeed unless you're violent and ruthless? There's no place in Westeros for "good guys"?

The baby swap is because he didn't trust Mel to not kill Mance's baby. It was honorable IMO.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Some would consider swapping babies and preparing to march on Winterfell as something the earlier Jon wouldn't do.

Yeah I agree.

So the message here is, you can't succeed unless you're violent and ruthless? There's no place in Westeros for "good guys"?

I want Jon to be that rarest of beasts: a good guy who doesn't take any shit from anyone. He's getting there — Janos and Stannis dealings — but I take issue with the idea that you can't succeed unless you're an asshole, and that you can't be good unless you just bend over and take it.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The baby swap is because he didn't trust Mel to not kill Mance's baby. It was honorable IMO.

It was a cruel thing he did for the right reasons. It was still cruel and still ruthless in its own way — taking a newborn away from its mother.

And I'm noticing that we're getting into that bizarre debate path where we have to bring up cold/ruthless things that Jon's done to DEFEND him. Good grief, Charlie Brown.

[Pugsley]

I want Jon to be that rarest of beasts: a good guy who doesn't take any shit from anyone. He's getting there — Janos and Stannis dealings — but I take issue with the idea that you can't succeed unless you're an asshole, and that you can't be good unless you just bend over and take it.

Agreed. I don't want Jon to be a wimp, but I don't want to see him turn bloodthirsty either. ADWD Jon is definitely on the right track. But if he starts hunting people down for vengeance then he's not Jon Snow anymore, as far as I'm concerned, and he may as well have stayed dead.

[kephv]

Some would consider swapping babies and preparing to march on Winterfell as something the earlier Jon wouldn't do.

I wouldn't, considering it was ultimately for the greater good. Similar to how he killed his wildling friends because they threatened the wall.

[Frejac]

I wouldn't, considering it was ultimately for the greater good. Similar to how he killed his wildling friends because they threatened the wall.

Continuing to do things for what Jon considers the greater good doesn't mean that the things he does aren't more morally questionable in ADWD than they were before.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Continuing to do things for what Jon considers the greater good doesn't mean that the things he does aren't more morally questionable in ADWD than they were before.

Bingo.

Agreed. I don't want Jon to be a wimp, but I don't want to see him turn bloodthirsty either. ADWD Jon is definitely on the right track. But if he starts hunting people down for vengeance then he's not Jon Snow anymore, as far as I'm concerned, and he may as well have stayed dead.

Yes, exactly. I don't want him to start in on any revenge killings or killing out of righteous indignation or emotional stress. We have enough of that shit.

[Dolorous Nedd]

Continuing to do things for what Jon considers the greater good doesn't mean that the things he does aren't more morally questionable in ADWD than they were before.

I think anyone would agree that saving a baby from being sacrificed is probably the right thing to do!