Daenerys and the faith R'hllor

[Hank Scorpio]

Benerro, high priest of R'hllor, preaches that Daenerys Targaryen is Azor Ahai reborn and encourages his followers to support her. He sent Moqorro to Daenerys as an emissary from his faith. Dany will meet Moqorro in the next book. (See the warning from Quaithe)

If Dany joins in with the faith of R'hllor, she will get

• gold to buy Ships and sellswords
  
• manpower from the many followers in Essos
  
• Red Priest powers
  
• a massive ego boost (She is Azor Ahoin reborn!!!)
  

With the help of the R'hllor faith, Dany could easily take Volantis (Most Tiger Cloaks worship the Lord of Ligh and

four out of every five inhabitants of Volantis are slaves) and then transport her army to Westeros (like the Golden Company)

If Dany reaches Westeros under the banner of R'hllor, she has the chance to win allies:

• Melisandre/Members of the Queen's Men (Is Stannis losing half of his army?)
  
• The Brotherhood without Banners are mostly followers of R'hllor
  
• Victarion Greyjoy (if he survives so long ) is on his way to switch his god.
  

and enemies:

• "Aegon" is raised in the faith of the Seven and he will not bend his knee to his "aunt".
  
• The Faith of the Seven and his Militant
  
• Aeron Greyjoy and the followers of the Drowned God
  
• Faceless Men
  
• Followers of the Old Gods (Bran/CoF/Jon Snow?)
  
• Stannis if he breaks with R'hllor
  

Is Dany to take the easy way out and sides with the faith of R'hllor?

Who stands against the might of Daenerys dragons and the Red Priests…

[Gis Val]

I don't think the Faceless Men will oppose Daenerys because of R'hllor. Their policy is that all the gods are faces of the Many-Faced-Gods, so R'hllor is just another variant of their god. If they are going to oppose her, it would be because the dragons, IMO.

[gingerpunk]

I do think Dany is the only person in the story who could fit the profile for Azor Ahai reborn. Melisandre seems very convinced that it's Stannis when she states, "...Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone." She says that Dragonstone is the land of smoke and salt, and she traveled here to find Stannis, but we know Daenerys was born on Dragonstone during a raging storm. Daenerys has also woken dragons out of stone already, the three eggs she hatched having been presumably fossilized. I don't know if Dany will join with the red priests or if they will simply stand in support of Dany, but I do think Maester Aemon was correct when he stated just before he died that Melisandre got it wrong.

[ladybug196591]

Mellisandre is definitely wrong. And its not only Dany there is also Jon Snow. But the problem was im not sure if he was born amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.... hmmmmm :dunno:

[gingerpunk]

I kind of get the feeling that Azor Ahai and The Prince That Was Promised maybe refer to two different people, and Daenerys is Azor Ahai and Jon Snow is The Prince That Was Promised.

[Fender]

I kind of get the feeling that Azor Ahai and The Prince That Was Promised maybe refer to two different people, and Daenerys is Azor Ahai and Jon Snow is The Prince That Was Promised.

Surprisingly enough, this is the first that I have heard of this theory. I think that it's a really good one, actually. Props to you.

[Queen Regent]

I do think Dany is the only person in the story who could fit the profile for Azor Ahai reborn. Melisandre seems very convinced that it's Stannis when she states, "...Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone." She says that Dragonstone is the land of smoke and salt, and she traveled here to find Stannis, but we know Daenerys was born on Dragonstone during a raging storm. Daenerys has also woken dragons out of stone already, the three eggs she hatched having been presumably fossilized. I don't know if Dany will join with the red priests or if they will simply stand in support of Dany, but I do think Maester Aemon was correct when he stated just before he died that Melisandre got it wrong.

I agree... I've always thought that Dany was Azor Ahai and I like the idea of Jon being the PTWP. Sounds like a good theory to me!

[Zar Lannister]

I don't think Daenerys will join any faith... She already did her share of playing with blood magic with Mirri Maz Duur, and despite the Targs are, theoretically, worshippers of the Faith, they've held themselves above and away from religion.

Plus Daenerys abhors slavery, and the Red Priests have the habit of buying slaves from the Free Cities to work as Slaves of R'hllor. Don't think her goals are a lot in line with this habit of the R'hllor followers.

[SeanF]

If she were persuaded that she was Azhor Ahai reborn, (and I think she'd be susceptible to such persuasion) then yes, I'd expect her to throw in her lot with the Red Priests.

[andrew_]

Why in the tv show does jaqen reference the red god as the only one true god? That really peeved me off as the faceless men are not followers of the red god.

[gingerpunk]

I don't think Daenerys will join any faith... She already did her share of playing with blood magic with Mirri Maz Duur, and despite the Targs are, theoretically, worshippers of the Faith, they've held themselves above and away from religion.

Plus Daenerys abhors slavery, and the Red Priests have the habit of buying slaves from the Free Cities to work as Slaves of R'hllor. Don't think her goals are a lot in line with this habit of the R'hllor followers.

I don't think she necessarily has to join up with their faith. She's their prophecied savior; that'd insinuate to me that she'll be giving them orders, not the other way around. The slavery of the Red Priests also seems a little different to me than regular slavery, as it seems R'hllor's slaves in turn become priests and earn their freedom, at least in part. Dany would probably object to this notion, yes, but if she's a prophecy fulfilled for their religion, they'll probably just stop at her command. I don't think I see her making a true conversion to R'hllor, but I definitely see her using them as a means to an end and tacking "Azor Ahai reborn" to her growing list of titles.

[Ser Sourleaf]

I agree that Dany fits the Azhor Ahai prophecy, but I can't imagine the scenario in which she forges Lightbringer. The legend says he forged the actual blade himself before plunging it into his wife's heart. Maybe taking the legend too literally, but I don't see Dany hammering out a blade anytime soon.

[evita mgfs]

Metaphorically, she "birthed" instead of forged three fire-breathing dragons from stone eggs, blood, and fire. Could her dragons be Lightbringer?

[The Mountain That Flies]

Metaphorically, she "birthed" instead of forged three fire-breathing dragons from stone eggs, blood, and fire. Could her dragons be Lightbringer?

This is a common belief (especially given the death of Drogo right beforehand), and since dragon fire would surely be a pretty effective tool against the Others/Wights, it stands to reason they'll be Dany's main weapon in the final apocalyptic battle.

[gingerpunk]

I agree that Dany fits the Azhor Ahai prophecy, but I can't imagine the scenario in which she forges Lightbringer. The legend says he forged the actual blade himself before plunging it into his wife's heart. Maybe taking the legend too literally, but I don't see Dany hammering out a blade anytime soon.

While this is the legend of Azor Ahai, the prophecy does not state that his reincarnation should have to forge a sword. There's also the idea that if the legendary figure once existed, his sword could still exist somewhere. Perhaps it is the "magic" sword Stannis currently wields, as insinuated by Melisandre. Also, I would imagine that neither Jon Snow or Aegon would be any better at forging their own blades than Dany, for that matter. If the prophecy of Azor Ahai's return rests on his reincarnation's skill as a smith, my money would be on Gendry. It just doesn't make sense that any old character should be able to pick up a hammer and forge his own blade, when it takes a good deal of time to acquire the skill to make a decent one, and it seems to me that the reincarnation of Azor Ahai should have a pretty fierce, kickass weapon.

Metaphorically, she "birthed" instead of forged three fire-breathing dragons from stone eggs, blood, and fire. Could her dragons be Lightbringer?

Well, quite literally, the dragons are 'lightbringers,' since dragons breathe fire and fire brings light. But my proposal is that the original story of Azor Ahai isn't necessarily a blueprint for the life of his reincarnation. What we know of the prophecy is basically what Melisandre states in ASOS: Born amidst salt and smoke, will birth dragons from stone. She traveled to Dragonstone and found Stannis, which mislead her to believe he was who she sought, but we know Dany was born on Dragonstone. I've also heard it said she was reborn the day she birthed her dragons, among the salt of her tears and the smoke of Drogo's pyre. Either way, Dany fits the prophecy and is the only character we know of who does so. (I'm embolding we know of to be clear that I understand more information may come available on other characters, so no need to point this out.)

As for The Prince Who Was Promised, I note that the prophecy seems to be linked with Azor Ahai by characters in the books, but I don't see any reason they should be. In The House of the Undying, when Dany sees in flashback Rhaegar reflecting over baby Aegon, he speaks of this prophecy, and says, "...his is the song of ice and fire." Well, my theory is that if Jon Snow is the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar (and I tend to think he is) then Jon truly is Ice (Stark) and fire (Targaryen) which makes me think Jon fills this prophecy. I'm in the midst still of rereading ASOS, so more ideas will come as I revisit further chapters, I tend to forget prophecies and other stuff until I'm right up on them again, so if I'm leaving something out or forgetting something that completely negates my theory, by all means, let me know. ;)

[The Mountain That Flies]

As for The Prince Who Was Promised, I note that the prophecy seems to be linked with Azor Ahai by characters in the books, but I don't see any reason they should be.

Didn't Martin himself confirm they were the same character?

[Anima]

I don't think the Faceless Men will oppose Daenerys because of R'hllor. Their policy is that all the gods are faces of the Many-Faced-Gods, so R'hllor is just another variant of their god. If they are going to oppose her, it would be because the dragons, IMO.

There is nothing so far as I know that indicates the FM have anything against dragons or Targaryens. Their order was born (or maybe reborn) in the mines of ancient Valyria but they did not have any (apparent) animosity against the Dragonlords of old or anyone else for that matter.

[gingerpunk]

Didn't Martin himself confirm they were the same character?

It's possible, but I never heard it. I just googled it and I can't seem to find anything about Martin confirming that the characters are one and the same, though. Until I do, I''m standing by my hypothesis. ;)

[Gis Val]

There is nothing so far as I know that indicates the FM have anything against dragons or Targaryens. Their order was born (or maybe reborn) in the mines of ancient Valyria but they did not have any (apparent) animosity against the Dragonlords of old or anyone else for that matter.

I don't believe they are anti-dragon myself, that was just the only reason I could see them being against her. I meant that if they were going to oppose her, it would rather be because dragons than because her religion.

[Landis]

Musing here over whether the "sword" of Azor Ahai is metaphorical and not literal? Perhaps the sword is more the sort of iron resolve that it took for Dany to essentially murder her husband after accidentally giving their child's life to save him..? Idk, still a theory indev right now, but she then walks onto Drogo's pyre herself, "reforging" herself to become the "Mother of Dragons", i.e., she "birthed" her dragons, returning magic to the world, etc., etc., etc. If you look at Dany's behaviour after these events, she's always talking about how she'll lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground. She becomes militaristic in a way that she never was before: she is now a weapon. Projecting on the future, I anticipate that Dany will arrive in Westeros after winter has come and the Long Night has fallen. With her, she will bring her dragons, a source of fire to fight ice, warmth to fight cold, and light to fight darkness.

What remains to be seen via this theory is how Dany's "sword" is to be used in conquering Westeros, whether it is the literal violence that will entail killing stuff, or whether it is through abstract means, like conquering peoples' hearts rather than their bodies. Viserys commented in AGoT that the Dothraki loved her, and this was something he feared because nobody would ever love him if he were in the same position. But Dany might not be so lovable if she arrives in Westeros with the "fire and blood" attitude that has apparently caused most of this forum's members to sour on her. In Meereen, it might be that there is a sort of alloying going on, if you will, whereby she tries to reconcile the image of the conqueror with that of the mother, and create something that is much stronger, as steel is stronger than iron, i.e., a second forging of her "sword".

I might also add that there is a certain conflict that arises when you call a sword "Lightbringer", given that a sword, being a weapon to be used for killing, is more of a "death-bringer". This is why the "second forging" is necessary. Killing might be necessary to win a throne, but you need something else to sit on that throne, as we have seen already. Robert, we might say, was a "death-bringer" (note: he says at one point that all that keeps the peace under his reign is "fear and blood"). In order to be considered a "light-bringer", I would assume that Dany would need to not just be a conqueror as Robert was, but to actually have a care for the people over whom she is ruling, which is what she is developing in Essos.