Jump to content

R+L=J #33


Stubby

Recommended Posts

I thought that was the case, and should have said so in my post. After having the opportunity to read your posts for the past few years, always a pleasure by the way, it is pretty clear you know these timeline questions.

No problem. Great to see another reader older than me on these forums. You've got me beat by half a decade or so.

As far as we know, neither Brandon or Rickard ever demand Lyanna's return. All we know is that Brandon goes to King's Landing and calls for Rhaegar to "come out and die." Sounds like the return of his sister wasn't the first thing on his mind. Perhaps he knew she went willingly? I think so.

edit: oops, Rickard, not Rickon.

Thanks for the edit on Rickard, totally had a brain fart on that.

However, it's of no matter as to what was said when Brandon and his father went to Kings Landing, only that it was a result of Lyanna either being captured or going with Rhaegar. The timeline proves more the sufficient for her to be with child in this time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A small point: while in the black cells, Lord Eddard thinks that he must have a long talk with Jon Snow, the subject of which will certainly include the identity of Jon's mother. What, aside from the peril of Eddard's current situation, could have loosened his tongue? I suggest that the change is the death of King Robert. But why would that matter? The most likely reason would be that Jon is Rhaeger's son, because if Robert knew that, Jon's life would be in danger and perhaps those of Lord Eddard and his family as well. This reasoning is hardly dispositive, but it can add to our other, stronger reasons for thinking that R + L = J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A small point: while in the black cells, Lord Eddard thinks that he must have a long talk with Jon Snow, the subject of which will certainly include the identity of Jon's mother. What, aside from the peril of Eddard's current situation, could have loosened his tongue? I suggest that the change is the death of King Robert. But why would that matter? The most likely reason would be that Jon is Rhaeger's son, because if Robert knew that, Jon's life would be in danger and perhaps those of Lord Eddard and his family as well. This reasoning is hardly dispositive, but it can add to our other, stronger reasons for thinking that R + L = J.

While I like this, I also think it could just as easily be argued that Ned wanted to talk to Jon because he thought he was going to lose his head. It's a common element in these bastard/hidden parentage stories -- the truth comes out on deathbeds, or with a last act (like a letter, to be delivered after death). It is his last opportunity to give Jon the explanation he deserves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

lol

Well, that's where we disagree. I don't think there's any possible scenario in which a Stark arrives at KL to discuss the matter with Aerys in which the outcome would be good. We just have to remember his reaction to the KotLT, and how the knight's shield had a symbol of the North in it, not to mention Rickard's move to get closer to so many important Houses in the South - the way Aerys was paranoid at that point, he was certainly paying attention to all that and probably suspicious of the Starks. Any possible solutions that could please the North (be it making Lyanna Rhaegar's second wife, marrying her to Viserys, or granting Rickard more lands and influence) would expand Rickard's power, which was likely the last thing Aerys would have wanted.

I only see two ways Brandon, Rickard and the others could have survived: if Brandon didn't go to KL and found a way to get in touch with Rhaegar, or maybe waited for him to make contact, and the North supported him in a coup against Aerys, which might have been what R had in mind when he ran away with Lyanna in the first place; or, the less likely possibility, Stark, Tully, Arryn and Baratheon started the rebellion earlier, which probably would never happen, since they only chose that path because of the people Aerys murdered and for his demanding Ned and Robert's heads.

Yeah I cant imagine the fallout of R+L going very well no matter how you slice it!

remember ultimately a madman has the final word...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No one knows, outside of GRRM's head that is, the answers to your questions. We can guess based on little hints here or there, but no real solid evidence for Lyanna's or Rhaegar's whereabouts through much of this time. I go back and forth about Ned and Lyanna's talk in Winterfell, but now my guess is that it predates the tourney at Harrenhal, and that Lyanna, Brandon, Ned, and Rickard come together sometime after the tourney in the Vale. The do so in preparation of the wedding of Brandon to Catelyn and, I think, to bring Robert and Lyanna together in order to move their marriage forward. At some point in 282 Brandon and his friends travel towards Riverrun to see Catelyn. This looks to be the case because of the Vale makeup of Brandon's party. Also, it is to the Vale that Aerys sends the demand for Robert's and Ned's heads, so they are obviously there. It makes sense that Lyanna would travel to Riverrun as well, from where (the Vale or the Riverlands) is unknown, but she does so seemingly under guarded protection (hence the need for Rhaegar to take her at sword point.) She seems to have met up with Rhaegar on her travels because Brandon receives word about her "kidnapping" while traveling himself, and it is he who reacts the quickest to the news. Which hints that he is the closest to Lyanna, and he acts without counsel from his father, Ned or Robert - none of whom go with him. It seems highly unlikely that Rickard would have told Brandon to do what he did, that Lord Arryn would have allowed his heir to travel on such an errand, or that Ned or, particularly Robert, would have not gone along with Brandon if they knew the plan. So, either, Lyanna was traveling from the Vale to Riverrun or from some other place to the same location and she met Rhaegar. Had they met between then and the tourney? We don't know. I doubt it, but it is possible. I think the Harrenhal stay unlikely, only because at the time Rickard is certainly calling the shots on where his daughter would be staying. If she is not with him, I highly doubt the Whents would be a family a man with "southren ambitions" would have chosen for his rebellious daughter to stay given her history with the Targaryen prince and the loyalty of the Whents to the royal family. The Vale seems the more likely place, and if so, it is unlikely that the crown prince and Lyanna met up before they meet on the road and run off together.

The tea leaves can be read many ways, that's just my read of them at this moment. Hopefully we will get some more clues to work with soon.

Thanks for answering SFDanny I always miss some parts of the books that's why I asked even thought I knew it would be hard to answer. I hope George gives us more details about that and a proof if Lyanna was really kidnapped or not. It's not just about Jon parenting, I think it would help a lot to build properly Lyanna's character, we know so little about her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for answering SFDanny I always miss some parts of the books that's why I asked even thought I knew it would be hard to answer. I hope George gives us more details about that and a proof if Lyanna was really kidnapped or not. It's not just about Jon parenting, I think it would help a lot to build properly Lyanna's character, we know so little about her.

There was a recent interview with our author in which he said that we would probably not learn more about Rhaeger and Lyanna in TWOW. This may make sense in terms of the plotting, as may also keeping Dany so long in Essos, the idea being to hold as much as possible for the climax of the story in ADOS, but it is still frustrating for the reader.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There was a recent interview with our author in which he said that we would probably not learn more about Rhaeger and Lyanna in TWOW. This may make sense in terms of the plotting, as may also keeping Dany so long in Essos, the idea being to hold as much as possible for the climax of the story in ADOS, but it is still frustrating for the reader.

Can you link to that?

thank you

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We, really, don't know that. Is a matter of great importance what was said, Brandon asked that Rhaeghar "came out and die"...why? what for? all are assumptions. if it was for Lyanna (we could assume) or something else, we don't know. We can only speculate of Brandon's whereabouts and motivations.

Can you link to that?

While it is true that we do not know exactly for sure what happened, I do believe it is not foolish to infer that it was at least a major part in Brandon wanting to go to KL in the first place. I mean Rhaegar and Brand were both present at the Tourney in Harrenhall and there seemed to be no eniminities between them at that point, so seemingly the only thing that changed was the disappearance of Lyanna.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While it is true that we do not know exactly for sure what happened, I do believe it is not foolish to infer that it was at least a major part in Brandon wanting to go to KL in the first place. I mean Rhaegar and Brand were both present at the Tourney in Harrenhall and there seemed to be no eniminities between them at that point, so seemingly the only thing that changed was the disappearance of Lyanna.

Rhaegar eliminated Brandon at that tournament.

There were just no enmity between them mentioned to us so far.

But I don't think that anyone is infering that Lyanna's so-called abduction had nothing to do with Brandon going to KL.

Just that its possible that rather than concern for his sister (whom he did not, after all, mention even peripherally in his public declaration), he was motivated in a large part by anger at Rhaegar usurping his family's (father's) right to dispose of Lyanna as they saw fit (use her to form an alliance with the Baratheons).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe this theory but don't know it in too much detail. Were Rhaeger and Lyanna in the TOJ the entire time? I would assume they would have to be as I don't think Lyanna would find her father and brother getting killed okay and just continuing to chill out

We just don't know. We generally assume they were at the ToJ the whole time - after all, no one heard of them in a while, and the tower is located in a remote place, so they could have stayed hidden there until Rhaegar had to go back to KL to fight in the war. Not to mention that it seems he was the one who named it "Tower of Joy", which means he probably lived there for a while to experience that joy, most likely with Lyanna. But it's also possible they stayed at Summerhall or Starfall, any place near the Dornish borders, and only later, when he had to go back to KL, he decided to take her to a safer place.

We also don't know how soon they heard of Rickard's and Brandon's deaths, but we assume it didn't take that long; if they were at the ToJ the whole time, the tragedy probably happened maybe a month after they arrived there, they could have received the news two months, at least, after it happened. And we assume they kept in touch with the rest of Westeros via Starfall, that wasn't too far away from the Tower (perhaps a week or two ride away?). So, yes, I believe it didn't take them that long to learn the truth, but as to why she stayed, well, what would be the point of her making an appearance under those circumstances? Not to mention she might have already been pregnant when that happened, and who knows how complicated the pregnancy was at the beginning. Rhaegar might also have kept the truth from her, so as not to upset her or afraid she might do something drastic after hearing it, but I find that less likely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, I subscribe to th R+L=J theory, but I'm still having trouble puzzling out where Ashara Dayne fits in. I know this has been discussed ad nauseum in many other threads and Jon's parentage essays I've seen (and I haven't even read R+L=J #1-32) so I'm sorry if I'm repeating "old news" as it were. What is the general consensus; Did Ned and Ashara have a fling? Could the (allegedly stillborn) daughter that Barristan speaks of have been Ned's? And was there some kind of baby switch to protect Jon from Robert? (which I think would be ironic, considering the parallels Jon faced when switching Dalla's and Gilly's sons. ) and that is why Ashara threw herself into the sea with grief? OR were some of you saying the timeline doesn't add up for that?

I had always assumed Jon was named for Jon Arryn, but if he's Rhaegar's. I suppose it could just as easily be Jon Coddington.

I'm rambling now, but it's only because it's not all clear in my head yet. I keep thinking about edric dayne (a variation of Eddard,who goes by Ned, so logically we can assume Ned Stark was important to Edric's parents somehow) being milk brothers with Jon. He's too young to have been a part of anything happening during the war, and Ashara was supposedly dead before he was born, he has the targaryen coloring unlike Jon, but, yeah, I dont know, I just feel like I'm missing something significant there. If Jon were really to be Ned's, that would make Edric a cousin to Jon, yes? Maybe it doesn't even matter, with such a seemingly unimportant character. I just don't like being foggy on the relationships.

And while I'd like to believe that Ned was always faithful to Catelyn and only soiled his reputation to protect Lyanna, because that's a more noble and romantic characiture of the man, I do think it's quite possible that in the real world, he hardly knew Catelynn, and if he was crushing on Ashara, he may have forsaken his wedding vows for her. But when Catelynn asks about that name, and he flips out and says "Jon is of my blood, that is all you need to know," it seems evident to me that Jon is really his nephew.

Gosh, I just realized I probably have more question marks than periods in this too-long post. Thanks for reading, those of you who are patient. They've got me on a lot of stuff here in the hospital, so I'm going to add my disclaimer about my state-of-mind, and end it there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Patchface might know if he saw it under the sea.. I know, I know, oh oh oh.. Unfortunately Dany never let Barristan finish his stories for atleast some insight into some of the things at Harrenhal, so now we gotta wait 5years for the next book (to get the next clue)

Lol, thats true.

Can you imagine Dany and Bran in the same room with a storyteller?

You would never get to the point.

lol

Well, that's where we disagree. I don't think there's any possible scenario in which a Stark arrives at KL to discuss the matter with Aerys in which the outcome would be good. We just have to remember his reaction to the KotLT, and how the knight's shield had a symbol of the North in it, not to mention Rickard's move to get closer to so many important Houses in the South - the way Aerys was paranoid at that point, he was certainly paying attention to all that and probably suspicious of the Starks. Any possible solutions that could please the North (be it making Lyanna Rhaegar's second wife, marrying her to Viserys, or granting Rickard more lands and influence) would expand Rickard's power, which was likely the last thing Aerys would have wanted.

I only see two ways Brandon, Rickard and the others could have survived: if Brandon didn't go to KL and found a way to get in touch with Rhaegar, or maybe waited for him to make contact, and the North supported him in a coup against Aerys, which might have been what R had in mind when he ran away with Lyanna in the first place; or, the less likely possibility, Stark, Tully, Arryn and Baratheon started the rebellion earlier, which probably would never happen, since they only chose that path because of the people Aerys murdered and for his demanding Ned and Robert's heads.

Good grief, I hadn't even thought about matching Lyanna with Viserys. :ack:

I don't know if that would be good for him, or bad for him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There was a topic some months ago regarding/wondering what Jon Connington knew, or if he had any overt animosity towards Lyanna, and the conclusion was that he at least was unlikely to know about Jon, but it was unknown if he actively hated Lyanna.

He had a casual contempt for Elia that was probably born of jealousy, but he didn't seem to hate her.

Well, I went back and read all the JonCon chapters together, and I noticed something I missed before- he constantly wore a wolfskin cloak.

It was a wolf native to the lands he and Aegon lived on, a red wolf I believe, but, he was wearing it even in what I would imagine is a warm, humid environment- hardly the weather to wear furs.

That could be a nod to Ned and his part in the rebellion, but could it indicate a sign of his hatred for Lyanna?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, I subscribe to th R+L=J theory, but I'm still having trouble puzzling out where Ashara Dayne fits in. I know this has been discussed ad nauseum in many other threads and Jon's parentage essays I've seen (and I haven't even read R+L=J #1-32) so I'm sorry if I'm repeating "old news" as it were.

I would recommend you will read some of the previous threads, your questions will be answered. I know the amount of information and the number of threads can be pretty scaring, but the search function you'll find above at the right is a great tool to jump to threads that cover discussions. Have fun!.

To eliminate one question mark: Jon was named by Ned and after Jon Arryn. ETA Until GRRM covers what happened between Aerys, Rhaegar, Lyanna and Ned we don't know if he and Lyanna discussed naming her child, if Jon is the product of R+L=J (which I believe).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can I just put it out there that my biggest beef with Rhaegar is naming that tower the Tower of Joy? ew. haha.

He didn't, he called it his tower of joy. No capitalisation, it wasn't a name he gave to the place. It's merely how he thought of the place because it was a positive place for him. It does rather beg the question of how Ned came to know Rhaegar's feelings about a secret location he'd never even heard of until after Rhaegar was dead, it hardly seems the most necessary information to impart when giving him directions to find the place...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He didn't, he called it his tower of joy. No capitalisation, it wasn't a name he gave to the place. It's merely how he thought of the place because it was a positive place for him. It does rather beg the question of how Ned came to know Rhaegar's feelings about a secret location he'd never even heard of until after Rhaegar was dead, it hardly seems the most necessary information to impart when giving him directions to find the place...

He may have learned from Lyanna.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That could be a nod to Ned and his part in the rebellion, but could it indicate a sign of his hatred for Lyanna?

I definitely wouldn't put it past him. As you say, he we know he had contempt for Elia, I'm sure he popped his top when he found out Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna...

On the other hand, could constantly wearing the wolfskin cloak have something to do with JonCon concealing his ever advancing greyscale?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...