R+L=J #33

[Prince of the Green]

I'm still curious as to how Brandon learned of his sister's absence. It is my theory that at some time after the events of Harrenhal Lyanna Stark returned to Winterfell, only to leave her crown of blue winter roses upon her bed. The story of Bael the Bard's abduction of the maiden daughter of the Lord of Winterfell would still be somewhat fresh, when you stop to consider that Ygritte referred to the daughter as the daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, not the King in the North. This, however, may be due to the Free Folk only following their own, chosen king as opposed to regarding a King south of the Wall as just this. This could explain the 'Bael' prefix of the Targaryen names Baelon and Baelor (both the Blessed and Breakspear), though without an exact timeline we couldn't possibly be sure on that.

It has to be said, though, that with all of this history present in the mind of the the Starks, and especially Lord Rickard, that he would have at least checked the crypts of Winterfell to see if she was there. With his worries affirmed, that Lyanna was not in Winterfell, all hell breaks loose.

[Ygrain]

And my pet theory is that those dried roses Lyanna is clutching on her deathbed are actually the crown from Harrenhall :-)

[jentario]

It's funny how I only finished AGoT a few months ago and came up with this theory thinking I was so smart, but then I figured out there are 33 full threads about it already :dunce:

[Lady Octarina]

It's funny how I only finished AGoT a few months ago and came up with this theory thinking I was so smart, but then I figured out there are 33 full threads about it already :dunce:

That happened to 99% of us :P

If Robert were to find out the truth about Jon, then he would have to confront what I think he already suspects that Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly. Under those circumstances I think it is almost certain that Robert would want Jon dead and probably Ned too for keeping it from him. Just look how he reacted when Ned resigned over killing Dany.

You know, I'm still not sure who would be the first in line to kill Jon if they knew who he was: Robert, because he would never let the child of the woman he claimed to love and his worst enemy live; Cersei, the other one slighted; or Tywin, just because.

[Old-Growth]

Lady O.:

Cersei did not even need that reason to want to kill Jon, as you may recall from AFfC.

[Budj]

Being a revealed secret Targ may have been better than being a Stark after GoT (Book 1) haha.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

33 threads about this, how is their still people that want to talk about it? haha

[Lady Octarina]

Lady O.:

Cersei did not even need that reason to want to kill Jon, as you may recall from AFfC.

You mean, the him being the Lord Commander thing? Well, she wouldn't have that reason when he was but a baby. :laugh:

[OberynBlackfyre]

It's funny to think that at this point in the game, so many people could literally care less about Jon being the product of Lyanna and Rhaegar. The Iron Throne would kind of just full on deny it, Aegon may see it as a threat, Dany would probably see him as family and ally, if she ever gets her head out of her ass and actually goes to Westeros...and Jon himself would probably only be angry that Ned had never told him, and that he was no want or possible desire to become a Targaryen..

[Scarlet Seastar]

I'm still curious as to how Brandon learned of his sister's absence. It is my theory that at some time after the events of Harrenhal Lyanna Stark returned to Winterfell, only to leave her crown of blue winter roses upon her bed. The story of Bael the Bard's abduction of the maiden daughter of the Lord of Winterfell would still be somewhat fresh, when you stop to consider that Ygritte referred to the daughter as the daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, not the King in the North. This, however, may be due to the Free Folk only following their own, chosen king as opposed to regarding a King south of the Wall as just this. This could explain the 'Bael' prefix of the Targaryen names Baelon and Baelor (both the Blessed and Breakspear), though without an exact timeline we couldn't possibly be sure on that.

It has to be said, though, that with all of this history present in the mind of the the Starks, and especially Lord Rickard, that he would have at least checked the crypts of Winterfell to see if she was there. With his worries affirmed, that Lyanna was not in Winterfell, all hell breaks loose.

Not just the absence, but also, why the hell would Brandon think that Rhaegar will go with Lyanna to the Red Keep in KL? Did Benjen help Lyanna escape and went to the Wall in grief?

Where was Lyanna taken from?

I think that Brandon thought that Rhaegar would marry Lyanna, and that's why he went to KL. I see no other reason. And that would also be why Robert started the rebellion. May be he thought if he caught Rhaegar in time he would stop the wedding/bedding.

How did Robert know Rhaegar raped Lyanna?

As for the story of Bael-I don't think it was known much south of the Wall. I think it was kept secret by the Starks. I assume, if the Stark kids(including Jon and Theon) knew the story, Theon would have checked the crypts[when looking for Bran and Rickon], wouldn't he? And not just the stories by Old Nan, or Ned, Theon seemed to be quite in touch with other people outside the walls of Winterfell, had that story been well known, Theon would have heard it somewhere, and later, Ramsay as well[after the sack, when he takes all the people from WF to the Dreadfort].

[Teal'c]

Not just the absence, but also, why the hell would Brandon think that Rhaegar will go with Lyanna to the Red Keep in KL? Did Benjen help Lyanna escape and went to the Wall in grief?

Where was Lyanna taken from?

I think that Brandon thought that Rhaegar would marry Lyanna, and that's why he went to KL. I see no other reason. And that would also be why Robert started the rebellion. May be he thought if he caught Rhaegar in time he would stop the wedding/bedding.

How did Robert know Rhaegar raped Lyanna?

As for the story of Bael-I don't think it was known much south of the Wall. I think it was kept secret by the Starks. I assume, if the Stark kids(including Jon and Theon) knew the story, Theon would have checked the crypts[when looking for Bran and Rickon], wouldn't he? And not just the stories by Old Nan, or Ned, Theon seemed to be quite in touch with other people outside the walls of Winterfell, had that story been well known, Theon would have heard it somewhere, and later, Ramsay as well[after the sack, when he takes all the people from WF to the Dreadfort].

I thought Theon knew they were in the crypts, and that was why he wouldn't let Maester Luwin bury the bodies of the fake Bran and Rickon down there. I suspect Theon found what Reek/Ramsay did to the miller's boys to be pretty shocking, and kept the secret of where Bran et al were hiding out partly to save face and partly to keep Reek from killing them.

[Targaryen_Rubies]

Sorry,mistake. Didn't mean to post.

[Prince of the Green]

With this theory in mind, I'd suggest watching the pilot episodes' scene where Robert arrives. Kit Harrington stares something fierce at Mark Addy.

[Walder Waters]

One of the covers of the graphic novel A Game of Thrones #13 shows a scene from the Tower of Joy. Possibily a chance to see some speculation proofen. As for example whether there have been winter roses in the tower or it was just Ned thinking of a winter roses association. And little chance we get to know who "they" are.

PS: Actually there are blue leaves visible on the cover.

[FrozenFire3]

One of the covers of the graphic novel A Game of Thrones #13 shows a scene from the Tower of Joy. Possibily a chance to see some speculation proofen. As for example whether there have been winter roses in the tower or it was just Ned thinking of a winter roses association. And little chance we get to know who "they" are.

PS: Actually there are blue leaves visible on the cover.

Oh yeah :cool4:

That's the cover you've just mentioned:

http://www.imagebam.com/image/09e911212723572

They seem to me lots and lots of tragically beautiful blue petals with the bonus of a dramatic blood-red sunset in the background :leer:

[Scarlet Seastar]

Oh yeah :cool4:

That's the cover you've just mentioned:

http://www.imagebam....09e911212723572

They seem to me lots and lots of tragically beautiful blue petals with the bonus of a dramatic blood-red sunset in the background :leer:

And winter rose bushes at the base of the tower.....

[Lady Octarina]

Oh yeah :cool4:

That's the cover you've just mentioned:

http://www.imagebam....09e911212723572

They seem to me lots and lots of tragically beautiful blue petals with the bonus of a dramatic blood-red sunset in the background :leer:

Funny, Dayne is blond, I always imagined him with even lighter hair. And much more handsome. :drool:

Anyway, are those ruins around the tower?

[Ygrain]

Funny, Dayne is blond, I always imagined him with even lighter hair. And much more handsome. :drool:

Exactly my line of thought :cheers: And cleanly shaven, the southern-style.

[Walder Waters]

And winter rose bushes at the base of the tower.....

You're right, I missed that, only saw the leaves!

The question arises whether the winter roses are native to the (southern!) region or Rhaegar/Lyanna made them grow there. Or if it was the only place in the South with winter roeses it could explain why Rhaegar chose the ToJ as their refugium.

[Lady Octarina]

You're right, I missed that, only saw the leaves!

The question arises whether the winter roses are native to the (southern!) region or Rhaegar/Lyanna made them grow there. Or if it was the only place in the South with winter roeses it could explain why Rhaegar chose the ToJ as their refugium.

But the Dornish climate is so different from the Northern, I think it's highly unlikely they would be able to make winter roses grow there, not without today's technology. As I understood it, the rose bushes are just a way of making a reference to the fact that Lyanna is inside, without having the leaves just fall from the sky. But who knows? Maybe there were indeed bushes there, which would explain why Lyanna still seemed to have such flowers around.