Arionis Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 The dream could be a hint of his Targaryen heritage. Inheriting the prophetic dreams and whatnot. I had never really given that much thought until just now so it could be a stretch.Didn't Jon have a dream where he had a burning dream? and another where the starks in the crypts don't want him there? IMO these are prophetic dreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosh Naranek Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I definitely remember him in Dance thinking on Robb and Ned - there was a wall between them and they said it was not his place.I thought it could be taken two ways - 1. Robb and Ned are the two Starks that we definitely know are dead. They told Jon it was not his place because it was not his time to die yet. OR 2. They tell him it is not his place because he is not Ned's son. Perhaps it is a comob of the two? Jon is not meant to die yet. And, he is family, but not in the way he thinks he is.The stone kings in the crypts also tell Jon that he does not belong there.However, Jon has had dreams in where he searched for his family and does not find them in Winterfell and must go into the crypts. Quite a few fans think that means that something is waiting down in the crypts of Winterfell for Jon to discover.Right before he "dies" in Dance he sees himself in black armor (some say obsidian / some say black ice). He is holding a burning sword. That is the dream he is having when the Raven wakes him. The Raven says "King Jon Snow." That is right before he is stabbed in his final POV in Dance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im no Ser Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 That happened to 99% of us :PMore like 50%, with the other half reading it here and then claiming they figured it out. :cool4: You know, I'm still not sure who would be the first in line to kill Jon if they knew who he was: Robert, because he would never let the child of the woman he claimed to love and his worst enemy live; Cersei, the other one slighted; or Tywin, just because.Add Catelyn to the list. If she discovered that Ned was hiding the Targ heir at Winterfell - thus putting her own children's lives at risk - she'd have a very strong (and not unreasonable) motive to kill Jon. Ned knows this - it's one of the main reasons he doesn't tell his wife the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Doug Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Didn't Jon have a dream where he had a burning dream? and another where the starks in the crypts don't want him there? IMO these are prophetic dreamsI know he dreams yo are speaking of. Those are definitely prophetic. I was thinking this one might be added to the list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Pollo Loco Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I also recall Jon thinking that he wanted the expensive clear glass like used at Winterfell. The cheaper yellow (?) glass would not be suitable. (I wonder why no one else in the Watch's history never thought of greenhouses? Perhaps they had enough men to farm and gather that their stores would last before?)One thing that poppred out to me on this re-read. (I am about 3/4 the way through the 1st book.) When Jon firsts thinks on his mother, he thinks that she must have been a high born lady. He says that he dreams of her but cannot see her face. Later when he decides to talk to Maester Aemon about Sam, he thinks that she must have been an adulteress. Why else would Ned have been so ashamed of her? Perhaps that shows Jon becoming more jaded? Or - could have both of his thoughts been true? His mother was high born and an adulteresss?I know that many think Rhaegar married Lyanna, but what if Jon's musings on his mother are somehow true?Could be both, but I think Jon becomes more jaded, in GOT he thinks Ghost left the pack when they found the wolves later he thinks Ghost was driven away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OberynBlackfyre Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I definitely remember him in Dance thinking on Robb and Ned - there was a wall between them and they said it was not his place.I thought it could be taken two ways - 1. Robb and Ned are the two Starks that we definitely know are dead. They told Jon it was not his place because it was not his time to die yet. OR 2. They tell him it is not his place because he is not Ned's son. Perhaps it is a comob of the two? Jon is not meant to die yet. And, he is family, but not in the way he thinks he is.The stone kings in the crypts also tell Jon that he does not belong there.However, Jon has had dreams in where he searched for his family and does not find them in Winterfell and must go into the crypts. Quite a few fans think that means that something is waiting down in the crypts of Winterfell for Jon to discover.Right before he "dies" in Dance he sees himself in black armor (some say obsidian / some say black ice). He is holding a burning sword. That is the dream he is having when the Raven wakes him. The Raven says "King Jon Snow." That is right before he is stabbed in his final POV in Dance.I remember hearing the raven at times state those words to Jon, and wondering why he himself thought nothing of such things. I wonder though if it is Bloodraven who is trying to convey this message to Jon, hinting strongly at his parentage, or if the bird is acting on its own accord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I remember hearing the raven at times state those words to Jon, and wondering why he himself thought nothing of such things. I wonder though if it is Bloodraven who is trying to convey this message to Jon, hinting strongly at his parentage, or if the bird is acting on its own accord.Mormont's raven quorking "KIng" may also have something to do with Jon being the heir to the late and lamented King of the North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 If Jon becomes King in the North, and starts cleaning house, making himself known to Westeros at large as a formiddable warrior, and having the North behind him, will Aryas place if found out shes still at large somewhere in the Free Cities, be precarious?Sansa is still in Westeros and still under wraps, but it would seem to me that many men, especially the desperate would love to get their hands on her, maybe even Dany to bring Jon to her as it seems he may be initially disinterested in the Targs., but content to destroy only the Lannisters and then go back home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Mormont's raven quorking "KIng" may also have something to do with Jon being the heir to the late and lamented King of the North.The raven says "king" early in ACOK, before Robb ever considered making Jon his heir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erudain Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Yup it does....he calls Jon king in front of the Old Bear before the ranging north of the wall...that "king" means son of Rhaegar, nothing to do with Robb's will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old-Growth Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Besides, the actual Lord of the North (in the reference from Dance) is there in the cave with Lord Brynden, so it seems likely that Bloodraven means "King of Westeros". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Cornholio! Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 The raven says "king" early in ACOK, before Robb ever considered making Jon his heir.This is what had me thinking about Jon being King before I figured out the R+L=J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zupoleon Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Check out the "Mormont's Raven A Re Read" thread - the "King" passage is discussed at length. The raven (Bloodraven) has very interesting things to say about all types of matters, even a passage that makes me lean towards Benjen being dead... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlet Seastar Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Check out the "Mormont's Raven A Re Read" thread - the "King" passage is discussed at length. The raven (Bloodraven) has very interesting things to say about all types of matters, even a passage that makes me lean towards Benjen being dead...Somehow I think, or should I say I hope that Benjen's still alive, not as Coldhands, but as Benjen. What made you lean towards Benjen being dead anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
y ddraig Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 I find it funny how frequently the Old Bear's raven seems to be warged. Dear old Brynden sure seems to be watching Jon. I wonder what his plans are?One small question:I agree that Jon is most likely legitimate, but just in case he's not... if he was officially legitimised and THEN turned out to be Rhaegar's bastard, what would he be? Would he remain a legitimised Stark, revert to being a Snow, or would the legitimisation... transfer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Octarina Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 I think if he wasn't legitimate but was legitimized by Robb, or Stannis, as a Stark, legally he would be a Stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 And, he would then be the next Heir to the Northern throne before Bran and Rickon as I doubt that Robb would put a caveat in the will, " Jon is my Heir unless Bran and Rickon show up." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old-Growth Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Hm... If R+L=J then any attempt to make him Jon Stark fails. He can only be turned into Jon Targaryen. And one way or another, Bran, Bloodraven, the Reeds, and perhaps also Dany (with the assistance of Tyrion, Ser Barristan, and Marwyn the Mage) will see it so. It would be amusing, to me at least, if Jon only truely learns when Dany shows up and insists that in as much as he is Rhaegar's son, it is his duty to marry her, and backs up her demand with the help of three dragons---she will need both of the other two, because she will not know in advance which of them will accept Jon as its rider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zupoleon Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Somehow I think, or should I say I hope that Benjen's still alive, not as Coldhands, but as Benjen. What made you lean towards Benjen being dead anyway?Jon and Jeor are having a conversation, and when Benjen's fate is brought up, the raven immediately chimes in and yells out "dead". He gets louder and more shrill, screaming out "dead" another 4 or 5 times. Subscribing to the theory that Bloodraven wargs the raven from time to time, it's a strong possibility he's trying to answer their question...Back to the legitimacy issue though, would HR feel obligated to speak up and tell everyone what he knows once he sees Robb's will? Or will he keep quite for the time being, knowing that it would be for the greater good (ridding the North of Boltons and Freys, and putting the Starks back in Winterfell)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old-Growth Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 So far as Lord Howland goes, it will depend on who is asking, I think. It seems likely to me, that he would tell either Jon or Dany, at least, the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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