R+L=J #33

[Old-Growth]

Lady Octarina:

Just stay away from Meathouse Man, The Pear-Shaped Man, and The Monkey Treatment, if you don't want to be grossed out. A Song for Lya and Nightflyers are must reads, however.

[Old-Growth]

Duplicate post, sorry

[Lady Octarina]

Lady Octarina:

Just stay away from Meathouse Man, The Pear-Shaped Man, and The Monkey Treatment, if you don't want to be grossed out. A Song for Lya and Nightflyers are must reads, however.

Thanks for the tips, but I only plan on readind The Ice Dragon this time :laugh:

Oh no!!! :)

Well, your going to be busy this weekend, because you can read "The Ice Dragon," in one sitting, (and it will make you cry). :crying:

You also have to catch "The Walking Dead," this Sunday, so you can't be disturbed. :cool4:

You may even have to take Monday off. :drool:

lol

that's true, and the Governor arrives! Not to mention Merlin and Downton Abbey are going to keep me pretty busy and emotionally ruined... :crying:

Anyway, back to the thread, I'm doing a quick read of Davos' chapters to see if there's anything that might contradict my theory that he was the one that informed Ned of Lyanna's location. I'll let you know what I find out.

[Old-Growth]

I take it that you have already read "The Hedge Knight". I agree, btw, that "The Ice Dragon" is a pleasing story, and worth reading even apart from any connection to ASoIaF.

[Alia of the knife]

Thanks for the tips, but I only plan on readind The Ice Dragon this time :laugh:

lol

that's true, and the Governor arrives! Not to mention Merlin and Downton Abbey are going to keep me pretty busy and emotionally ruined... :crying:

Anyway, back to the thread, I'm doing a quick read of Davos' chapters to see if there's anything that might contradict my theory that he was the one that informed Ned of Lyanna's location. I'll let you know what I find out.

Okay, sounds good! :D

[Alia of the knife]

Lady Octarina:

Just stay away from Meathouse Man, The Pear-Shaped Man, and The Monkey Treatment, if you don't want to be grossed out. A Song for Lya and Nightflyers are must reads, however.

Ohh, I have that volume as well, so thats good to know.

[Old-Growth]

Martin's prefaces to the various sections of Dreamsongs are also worth reading: they contain interesting observations about his thinking about his writing. E.g. he thought that "Sandkings" was okay, but not his best work, and was surprised by how popular it became (I think he was right in his initial judgment).

You can always re-read the Hedge Knight of course: Ser Duncan is always worth the while :-)

[Alia of the knife]

Martin's prefaces to the various sections of Dreamsongs are also worth reading: they contain interesting observations about his thinking about his writing. E.g. he thought that "Sandkings" was okay, but not his best work, and was surprised by how popular it became (I think he was right in his initial judgment).

You can always re-read the Hedge Knight of course: Ser Duncan is always worth the while :-)

I think elements of the Dunk & Egg stories can be found in the current story.

Just as Rhaegar and Lyanna still cast a shadow over the Kingdom, I think the snippets of what we read in D&E haunted R+L=J, and their respective families.

[Old-Growth]

It certainly haunted Maester Aemon; also I hope we will learn more about Summerhall without having to wait for the last D&E story.

[The Night's Prince]

Hm... If R+L=J then any attempt to make him Jon Stark fails. He can only be turned into Jon Targaryen. And one way or another, Bran, Bloodraven, the Reeds, and perhaps also Dany (with the assistance of Tyrion, Ser Barristan, and Marwyn the Mage) will see it so. It would be amusing, to me at least, if Jon only truely learns when Dany shows up and insists that in as much as he is Rhaegar's son, it is his duty to marry her, and backs up her demand with the help of three dragons---she will need both of the other two, because she will not know in advance which of them will accept Jon as its rider.

It will be the white one. Viseryon I think. Spelling be damned. White is just Jon's thing. I forgot and flat out didn't notice about the prophetic dreams. Dude is a Targaryen. Through and through.

[Budj]

Speaking of Dunk & Egg I just started re-reading aGoT and Jon in the early chapters reminds me a lot of Egg. Throughout the story (so far) there are also a couple more parallels.

As Jon had fatherly figures helping him along on his journey Egg had Dunk to help give him perspective on the small folk in his adventures.

Both had Maester Aemon for counsel. And ironically he gave them both the same advice.

And with the Ice Dragon story - while I think the world may be similar / not really westeros per say. I think the premises can be drawn towards Jon too. The Ice Dragon is described very similarly to Ghost - and via warging Ghost and Jon are essentially the same entity. Therefore, Jon represents the Ice Dragon.

[Lady Octarina]

@Budj

I had the same impression as you when I read the D&E stories. And the parallels aren't limited to the people that surround them, but their personalities also felt very alike to me - extremely formal and perceptive kids with a certain aura of mystery, but kindness, to them, not to mention that, as we know, both had to make harder choices than they were prepared/ready for. I think that, if D&E was told from Egg's perspective, it would closely resemble Jon's chapters, and thoughts. I only hope Jon doesn't have the same end as Egg's...

Just the other day I was talking with Alia about how "The Ice Dragon" convinced me there won't be an actual ice dragon arriving at the story to bond with Jon - Jon is the ice dragon, both for his Stark/Targaryen blood, and for the fact that, well, if he is TPTWP, as I believe him to be, his function is to bring an equilibrium to his world, just like the creature did in that tale. It's funny, generally I see people interpreting the whole ASoIaF thing as ice and fire uniting to defeat ice (the Others), which makes no sense, really. It's much more likely it is ice and fire (Jon) defeating or reaching a mystical agreement of sorts with both ice (Others) and fire (Daenerys).

[Alia of the knife]

@Budj

I had the same impression as you when I read the D&E stories. And the parallels aren't limited to the people that surround them, but their personalities also felt very alike to me - extremely formal and perceptive kids with a certain aura of mystery, but kindness, to them, not to mention that, as we know, both had to make harder choices than they were prepared/ready for. I think that, if D&E was told from Egg's perspective, it would closely resemble Jon's chapters, and thoughts. I only hope Jon doesn't have the same end as Egg's...

Just the other day I was talking with Alia about how "The Ice Dragon" convinced me there won't be an actual ice dragon arriving at the story to bond with Jon - Jon is the ice dragon, both for his Stark/Targaryen blood, and for the fact that, well, if he is TPTWP, as I believe him to be, his function is to bring an equilibrium to his world, just like the creature did in that tale. It's funny, generally I see people interpreting the whole ASoIaF thing as ice and fire uniting to defeat ice (the Others), which makes no sense, really. It's much more likely it is ice and fire (Jon) defeating or reaching a mystical agreement of sorts with both ice (Others) and fire (Daenerys).

Great compromise on our theories. :D

(Now back to "Walking Dead").

[scorpionspupil]

Sorry about the rant :s this isn't in response to anyone specific but everytime I see someone ship Jon and Dany my eyes almost roll out of my head, and I kinda got going. I'm sure a great number of you more established members will be able to poke dozens of holes in my opinions but whatevs :P

I believe this RLJ theory 100%

But I CANNOT believe how many people think that this is going erase his entire character history and turn him into (Fantasy Hero Archetype) get the hot blonde girl, get a dragon and a magic sword, defeat (THE BAD GUYS), and become (KING OF EVERYTHING)

This isn't a fairy tale guys, this isn't Axe-Cop

Jon's story is about staying true to himself, and doing whats right. He submitted to temptation once, paid for it, and he learned from it. There's alot of potential avenues for Jon's story to go, alot of them involve him being handed his future on a platter. He's not going to take them, he will get what he earns.

At absolute most he might become The King Beyond the Crossing (MAYBE the Riverlands/Vale too MAYBE) or some form of KitN/KoW/KbtW/ or even a new Night's King. Maybe even LoW/WotW. But he will earn it by the sword, also he won't take anything at the expense of his siblings rightful places.

He won't Be Jon Targaryen I, Maybe Jon Stark the whateverth, or Jon (INSERT COOL NAME), but I'll put my money on Snow tho

If he takes a wife, it won't be his AUNT, no matter if it's acceptable to the fans or even to westeros in general. It's not something I see Jon doing, If he ends up with anyone it'll probably be Val.

All that hangs on him being alive first of all, and being released from the Nights, also Georges whims of course

I'd be just as content with him taking back the Night's Watch, becoming the 1000th LC, putting his betrayors under Longclaws blade, restructuring the joke that is the Night's Watch (too full of old stock and high on themselves upper management, it's practically corrupt), and battling The Others to the bitter end to ensure the safety of westerosi and wildling alike.

Jon is like Luke Skywalker, finding out who his secret father was ISN'T going to change who he is. That's the entire point of the character trope

[Old-Growth]

That Martin is not writing a fairy tale is not incompatible with Jon ending up on the Iron Throne and married to Dany; there are many ways that could turn out that would not be a cliched "happy ending": you need to think a bit harder about this it seems. Besides have you actually read the brothers Grimm? Some of their tales are pretty grim (pun intended). This kind of knee-jerk reaction, along with things like "it's too obvious" are becoming quite tedious.

[sagaz]

I really don't mind if Jon end up with Dany. i've never tought about it.

Anyway, if that's the case I'd love to see how Martin gets there.

ETA: totally off topic: the only couple -from all the saga- I root for is the unlikely Jaime-Brienne.

[Maester Tormund]

Just something that popped into my head while reading ACoK and I don't know if its been said before (sorry if I'm repeating something that's already been shot down :unsure: )

A big argument for R+L=J is the vision in The House of the Undying of the blue winter rose growing in the chink in the wall. The blue winter roses are commonly associated with Lyanna since they were her favorite, so Lyanna's favorite flower growing in a wall has to be Jon Snow.

However we don't only see them associated with Lyanna. We actually see them directly connected to Jon Snow with the story of Bael the Bard that Ygritte tells him. She says it stands for a connection between the Starks and the Wildlings. The blue flower growing in the wall could be Jon's appreciation and understanding of the Wildlings growing. We know he begins to develop feelings for Ygritte and respects and almost admires Mance and Tormund.

Just something I thought of

[Teal'c]

Just something that popped into my head while reading ACoK and I don't know if its been said before (sorry if I'm repeating something that's already been shot down :unsure: )

A big argument for R+L=J is the vision in The House of the Undying of the blue winter rose growing in the chink in the wall. The blue winter roses are commonly associated with Lyanna since they were her favorite, so Lyanna's favorite flower growing in a wall has to be Jon Snow.

However we don't only see them associated with Lyanna. We actually see them directly connected to Jon Snow with the story of Bael the Bard that Ygritte tells him. She says it stands for a connection between the Starks and the Wildlings. The blue flower growing in the wall could be Jon's appreciation and understanding of the Wildlings growing. We know he begins to develop feelings for Ygritte and respects and almost admires Mance and Tormund.

Just something I thought of

It is definitely an important tie-in, To me, the Bael the Bard story was George reiterating the allusion of Jon as the blue rose on the Wall, by connecting Dany's visions of Rhaegar and of the blue rose to the "abduction" of Lyanna.

[Old-Growth]

It is definitely an important tie-in, To me, the Bael the Bard story was George reiterating the allusion of Jon as the blue rose on the Wall, by connecting Dany's visions of Rhaegar and of the blue rose to the "abduction" of Lyanna.

The parallel between Bael the Bard and Rhaegar the bard seems clear enough, but I wonder whether the former story was still current in Winterfell, in as much as Jon only learned it from Ygritte. Also Rhaegar left no rose in Lyanna's place :-)

[Teal'c]

'Cept Jon... :)