R+L=J #33

[Lady Octarina]

Jon's story is about staying true to himself, and doing whats right. He submitted to temptation once, paid for it, and he learned from it. There's alot of potential avenues for Jon's story to go, alot of them involve him being handed his future on a platter. He's not going to take them, he will get what he earns.

I don't think that many people here believe him taking the iron throne would be a prize - it's like saying Harrenhall is a prize. It would be a curse! I do think Jon sits the iron throne to govern Westeros in the end, but that doesn't mean it will be a reward for something; rather, it will be him fulfilling his duty, as he's done all this time. If he believes he can do more for the realm sitting that throne than being LC of the NW, that's what he'll do (not to mention there probably won't be a Wall to defend at the end of the series, but that's another subject).

I agree with you he and Daenerys won't be together at the end (hells, I hope he has a hand in killing her!), but to be honest, the idea that he might marry Val seems as fairytale-like as him marrying that crazy aunt of his most people seem to like. If he sits the iron throne, he'll have to agree to a political marriage that will consolidate the westerosi union; at the current state of things my bets for possible brides are a Tyrell, Myrcella, or someone from Dorne (either Arianne or, if she marries Young Griff, one of the Sand Snakes?).

[Kosh Naranek]

I don't think that many people here believe him taking the iron throne would be a prize - it's like saying Harrenhall is a prize. It would be a curse! I do think Jon sits the iron throne to govern Westeros in the end, but that doesn't mean it will be a reward for something; rather, it will be him fulfilling his duty, as he's done all this time. If he believes he can do more for the realm sitting that throne than being LC of the NW, that's what he'll do (not to mention there probably won't be a Wall to defend at the end of the series, but that's another subject).

I agree with you he and Daenerys won't be together at the end (hells, I hope he has a hand in killing her!), but to be honest, the idea that he might marry Val seems as fairytale-like as him marrying that crazy aunt of his most people seem to like. If he sits the iron throne, he'll have to agree to a political marriage that will consolidate the westerosi union; at the current state of things my bets for possible brides are a Tyrell, Myrcella, or someone from Dorne (either Arianne or, if she marries Young Griff, one of the Sand Snakes?).

:agree:

Jon seems to take Ned's views on power. It is a great responsibility and weight. The leader should try to do what is right, not what is personally advantageous. (Granted they have both screwed up epicly, but they tried hard. - Back on topic.)

I don't see Jon marrying Dany to be some fairytale ending. There is nothing in the text to suggest that they would even get along much less experience kismet. Dany hates Ned, and Jon has probably only heard the bad things about Aerys. Her father turning his grandfather into barbeque is not likely to make him go gaga from word go. - Jon tends to value people for who they are and what they can do rather than pedigree. (Of course they could grow in their understanding of one another and each other's family histories. This is going off what they may know about each other thus far.)

I don't think Jon wishes for power. He rather has stepped up when asked to and took the lead because he had to rather than wanted it.

I think Benjen telling him that you get what you earn has had a proufound effect on Jon.

If Jon had his druthers, I imagine he would be happier sitting around a hearth with the ramaining Starks and wolves than sitting the Iron Throne.

Given what happened at the end of Dance, we could be seing a whole different ballgame in Winds. :fencing:

[sagaz]

I don't think that many people here believe him taking the iron throne would be a prize - it's like saying Harrenhall is a prize. It would be a curse! I do think Jon sits the iron throne to govern Westeros in the end, but that doesn't mean it will be a reward for something; rather, it will be him fulfilling his duty, as he's done all this time. If he believes he can do more for the realm sitting that throne than being LC of the NW, that's what he'll do (not to mention there probably won't be a Wall to defend at the end of the series, but that's another subject).

I agree with you he and Daenerys won't be together at the end (hells, I hope he has a hand in killing her!), but to be honest, the idea that he might marry Val seems as fairytale-like as him marrying that crazy aunt of his most people seem to like. If he sits the iron throne, he'll have to agree to a political marriage that will consolidate the westerosi union; at the current state of things my bets for possible brides are a Tyrell, Myrcella, or someone from Dorne (either Arianne or, if she marries Young Griff, one of the Sand Snakes?).

I agree with you except on the highlighted paragraph :) ... I'm following the "Learning to lead" threads, with very interesting insight from people here on the forums, and in some ways Daenerys and Jon travelled similar paths... I wouldn't be totally awkward if they end up toghether. Unlikely, yes.

and the opposite would be of Margaery...unlikely, not, but awkward to the extreme.

(I didn't tought very well of Dany before reading those threads, It helped me see her, and her struggles in another light)

ETA: was you -some threads back- with that theory of Dany's being Jon's Nissa Nissa?

[Lady Octarina]

ETA: was you -some threads back- with that theory of Dany's being Jon's Nissa Nissa?

THAT WAS ANYONE BUT ME!

lol

Seriously, though, I'm still among those that believe it is more likely Rhaegar was Azor Ahai, Lyanna his Nissa Nissa and Jon is Lightbringer. Or, if Jon is AA, I'm more inclined to believe his Nissa Nissa is something more metaphorical, not an actual person. But if it is a person, it should be someone he's cared about for a long time, don't you think? Someone like Arya, or Ghost.

Though if it means we'll finally be rid of her, I certainly wouldn't mind if Daenerys was his NN after all! :devil:

[Alia of the knife]

I think Arianne ends up with a lesser,but appropriate mate from Dorne, and she is sole Ruler of Dorne.

I don't see her wanting to be someone elses Queen.

I can also see her as a female Warwick if her actions with Myrcella are anything to go by, so she will be an active player as far as YG/Aegon goes, but I don't see either Jon or Aegon with a Sandsnake, (Aegon may indulge in an affair), because they are still baseborn.

I think that Margery may do for Jon as a political union, but as far as the Tyrells and even the Martells, they are natural allies of the Targaryens, (especially the Tyrells because the Targs raised them to power in the first place and the Martells are family). I think the Tyrells play a dangerous game baiting Aegon into a marriage with thrice-married Marge when he could accuse them of Treason, and just take what he wanted, especially if he ends up with a dragon.

A political marriage is only useful in families, or territories they need to unite as the Targs. did with Dorn, or re-unite, and the North is the largest territory because without it, there are no Seven Kingdoms.

The North remembers and may not be willing to bend the knee, and the Starks still have name recognition in terms of loyalty which is why everyone and their brother is trying to get their hands on a Stark, even while broken, so Arya had better stay out of Westeros, and Sansa under cover.

Myrcella and Shireen would also be more viable political matches to reunite fractured power families, but Myrcella is likely dead and the Martells are hiding that fact and Shireen is probably going to die from her illness.

Dany is now with the Dothraki again, so Aegon will be waiting awhile.

[LadyMary]

:agree:

Jon seems to take Ned's views on power. It is a great responsibility and weight. The leader should try to do what is right, not what is personally advantageous. (Granted they have both screwed up epicly, but they tried hard. - Back on topic.)

I don't see Jon marrying Dany to be some fairytale ending. There is nothing in the text to suggest that they would even get along much less experience kismet. Dany hates Ned, and Jon has probably only heard the bad things about Aerys. Her father turning his grandfather into barbeque is not likely to make him go gaga from word go. - Jon tends to value people for who they are and what they can do rather than pedigree. (Of course they could grow in their understanding of one another and each other's family histories. This is going off what they may know about each other thus far.)

I don't think Jon wishes for power. He rather has stepped up when asked to and took the lead because he had to rather than wanted it.

I think Benjen telling him that you get what you earn has had a proufound effect on Jon.

If Jon had his druthers, I imagine he would be happier sitting around a hearth with the ramaining Starks and wolves than sitting the Iron Throne.

Given what happened at the end of Dance, we could be seing a whole different ballgame in Winds. :fencing:

I agree that Jon is a man who puts honor ahead of personal ambition and would exercise power as his duty, not because he desires it. Sort of how he ended up Lord Commander because other people conspired to give him power, not because he lobbied for it. In fact, he turned down Stannis' very tempting offer to Lord of Winterfell because he had a duty to the Watch and a sense that one of his supposed half-siblings was the rightful heir. The irony is, he's likely to obtain power because he eschews it.

That being said, he's human. He fell in love once with Ygritte and even questioned his vows and thought about defecting for real. The idea that he could live free of the confines of his service in a place where being a bastard didn't matter was very tempting. Who's to say he won't fall in love again, with Val or Dany or someone else? I think it's possible that a son of the North - who would consider incest to be an abomination, would end up falling in love with a woman he will later learn is his close blood relative. There's no happily-ever-after there; just a lot of angst and self-recrimination, but maybe a necessary evil for certain events to come to pass.

I don't think Jon will ever sit on the Iron Throne. I don't think Dany will either, or even"Aegon" ultimately - at least not for long. I think Westeros will be in ruins from the civil war when the real threat comes down from beyond the Wall and who sits on the bloody chair will not matter as the Lords and their armies try to survive the onslaught. Who's going to care about the figurative seat of power when it can't defend the realm? Who's going to defend the seat of power when there are other castles they need to defend?

I think whoever survives the War for Dawn, will be too busy scraping out subsistence to be concerned with reconstituting the old monarchy. If the kingdoms are reunited, I hope that the survivors will establish some kind of Parliamentary structure, and if there must be a monarch, he or she will be subject to the Lords and a servant to the realm. I can see Jon serving in some capacity to restore stability to the North or the realm as a whole, but I don't think it will be from Kings Landing.

Jon may learn he's got the blood of a dragon and of a wolf and that he's neither here nor there. I don't think the events of the past - his grandfather's murder of his other grandfather will end up defining his reactions to his Aunt Dany. I think his reactions to her will depend on their interactions during the War. Likewise, I don't think Dany will continue to hold a grudge against Ned Stark when she learns the truth about what happened. She's proven that she can unlearn the bad lessons she learned from Viserys and that she sometimes makes mistakes for failing to listen to those who have information she doesn't want to hear. In short, I think she'll grow up and when it comes down to it, she's likely to see Jon Snow as an ally, not an enemy.

[Alia of the knife]

I agree that Jon is a man who puts honor ahead of personal ambition and would exercise power as his duty, not because he desires it. Sort of how he ended up Lord Commander because other people conspired to give him power, not because he lobbied for it. In fact, he turned down Stannis' very tempting offer to Lord of Winterfell because he had a duty to the Watch and a sense that one of his supposed half-siblings was the rightful heir. The irony is, he's likely to obtain power because he eschews it.

That being said, he's human. He fell in love once with Ygritte and even questioned his vows and thought about defecting for real. The idea that he could live free of the confines of his service in a place where being a bastard didn't matter was very tempting. Who's to say he won't fall in love again, with Val or Dany or someone else? I think it's possible that a son of the North - who would consider incest to be an abomination, would end up falling in love with a woman he will later learn is his close blood relative. There's no happily-ever-after there; just a lot of angst and self-recrimination, but maybe a necessary evil for certain events to come to pass.

I don't think Jon will ever sit on the Iron Throne. I don't think Dany will either, or even"Aegon" ultimately - at least not for long. I think Westeros will be in ruins from the civil war when the real threat comes down from beyond the Wall and who sits on the bloody chair will not matter as the Lords and their armies try to survive the onslaught. Who's going to care about the figurative seat of power when it can't defend the realm? Who's going to defend the seat of power when there are other castles they need to defend?

I think whoever survives the War for Dawn, will be too busy scraping out subsistence to be concerned with reconstituting the old monarchy. If the kingdoms are reunited, I hope that the survivors will establish some kind of Parliamentary structure, and if there must be a monarch, he or she will be subject to the Lords and a servant to the realm. I can see Jon serving in some capacity to restore stability to the North or the realm as a whole, but I don't think it will be from Kings Landing.

Jon may learn he's got the blood of a dragon and of a wolf and that he's neither here nor there. I don't think the events of the past - his grandfather's murder of his other grandfather will end up defining his reactions to his Aunt Dany. I think his reactions to her will depend on their interactions during the War. Likewise, I don't think Dany will continue to hold a grudge against Ned Stark when she learns the truth about what happened. She's proven that she can unlearn the bad lessons she learned from Viserys and that she sometimes makes mistakes for failing to listen to those who have information she doesn't want to hear. In short, I think she'll grow up and when it comes down to it, she's likely to see Jon Snow as an ally, not an enemy.

Well said.

[pobeb]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the board. I've read over a good part of this thread, but I didn't notice anyone touching on this idea:

Why did Rhaegar decide to become a warrior?

I believe his decision heavily supports the R+L=J theory, and this is why:

As we know, Rhaegar is suggested to have a much better idea about the PtwP prophecy than the readers have been given. He spent the better part of his youth obsessed with the tragedy at Summerhall, which we know as some “Targaryans trying to raise dragons again” catastrophe. After his years of reading and research, I believe he came across a book that contained the PtwP prophecy. I theorize that this same book also contained a more detailed explanation of how to fulfill said prophecy; which had to do with him becoming a warrior.

I kept asking myself, “What possible significance does Rhaegar becoming a warrior have over the story? Why would GRRM even add that?” Then, it hit me: Harrenhal

Let’s try to look at this objectively:

-Rhaegar reads something that is so profound it causes him to completely change his lifestyle (book worm into warrior)

-Rhaegar beats everyone at the Harrenhal tournament, which is regarded as the greatest tournament ever (doesn’t sound like something a bookworm would be capable of)

-Rhaegar kidnaps/courts Lyanna Stark inciting Robert’s Rebellion

-Rhaegar leads the Kingdom’s army into battle in one of the biggest wars Westeros ever had (so big, it results in the complete downfall of House Targaryan)

You might ask yourself, “Well, if Rhaegar was the cool guy we’re lead to believe and also had thoughts of usurping his insane father, why did he fight Robert instead of treating with him? My theory is, he wasn’t fighting for Aerys or the Iron Throne, but he was fighting to protect Lyanna (who was betrothed to Robert) while she was carrying the PtwP; his unborn son; Jon Snow.

“He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice (Stark) and fire (Targaryan).”

^^^ Rhaegar is heard to say this in Dany’s vision in the House of the Undying, and he most certainly is referring to Aegon (GRRM confirmed), but rather than this being evidence that Aegon is the PtwP, I think this is just evidence of what Rhaegar read in his youth. Notice, no other character in the story ever makes mention of the song of ice and fire related to the PtwP. I also believe GRRM deliberately put this line here because he wants to reinforce how susceptible people are at misinterpreting prophecies. When Rhaegar was born, everyone thought he was the PtwP. Then Aegon was born and Rhaegar thought it was him. Later, Aemon believes it's Dany. Just as Mel thinks Stannis is her champion. These are just a big series of misinterpretations. However, recent history in Westeros does NOT seem up for debate. Rhaegar DID read something which led him to become a warrior, he DID defeat everyone at Harrenhal, he DID fight to protect… something, and he DID mention that the PtwP has the song of ice and fire.

Thanks for reading, hope that wasn’t too long or too far off topic ;)

[Alia of the knife]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the board. I've read over a good part of this thread, but I didn't notice anyone touching on this idea:

Why did Rhaegar decide to become a warrior?

I believe his decision heavily supports the R+L=J theory, and this is why:

As we know, Rhaegar is suggested to have a much better idea about the PtwP prophecy than the readers have been given. He spent the better part of his youth obsessed with the tragedy at Summerhall, which we know as some “Targaryans trying to raise dragons again” catastrophe. After his years of reading and research, I believe he came across a book that contained the PtwP prophecy. I theorize that this same book also contained a more detailed explanation of how to fulfill said prophecy; which had to do with him becoming a warrior.

I kept asking myself, “What possible significance does Rhaegar becoming a warrior have over the story? Why would GRRM even add that?” Then, it hit me: Harrenhal

Let’s try to look at this objectively:

-Rhaegar reads something that is so profound it causes him to completely change his lifestyle (book worm into warrior)

-Rhaegar beats everyone at the Harrenhal tournament, which is regarded as the greatest tournament ever (doesn’t sound like something a bookworm would be capable of)

-Rhaegar kidnaps/courts Lyanna Stark inciting Robert’s Rebellion

-Rhaegar leads the Kingdom’s army into battle in one of the biggest wars Westeros ever had (so big, it results in the complete downfall of House Targaryan)

You might ask yourself, “Well, if Rhaegar was the cool guy we’re lead to believe and also had thoughts of usurping his insane father, why did he fight Robert instead of treating with him? My theory is, he wasn’t fighting for Aerys or the Iron Throne, but he was fighting to protect Lyanna (who was betrothed to Robert) while she was carrying the PtwP; his unborn son; Jon Snow.

“He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice (Stark) and fire (Targaryan).”

^^^ Rhaegar is heard to say this in Dany’s vision in the House of the Undying, and he most certainly is referring to Aegon (GRRM confirmed), but rather than this being evidence that Aegon is the PtwP, I think this is just evidence of what Rhaegar read in his youth. Notice, no other character in the story ever makes mention of the song of ice and fire related to the PtwP. I also believe GRRM deliberately put this line here because he wants to reinforce how susceptible people are at misinterpreting prophecies. When Rhaegar was born, everyone thought he was the PtwP. Then Aegon was born and Rhaegar thought it was him. Later, Aemon believes it's Dany. Just as Mel thinks Stannis is her champion. These are just a big series of misinterpretations. However, recent history in Westeros does NOT seem up for debate. Rhaegar DID read something which led him to become a warrior, he DID defeat everyone at Harrenhal, he DID fight to protect… something, and he DID mention that the PtwP has the song of ice and fire.

Thanks for reading, hope that wasn’t too long or too far off topic ;)

Welcome and good job.

It would be helpful if we had more of a timeline.

Was that vision of Rhaegar and Elia before Harrenhal?

(I had always assumed that Elia was in the early stages of pregnancy at Harrenhal, but, we don't know for sure).

If it was, then Rhaegar would know that Elia was infertile at that point, and it would be when he met Lyanna, but is Lyanna the bearer of tPtWP, or merely the Third Head of the Dragon?

[Old-Growth]

It would be helpful if we had more of a timeline.

Was that vision of Rhaegar and Elia before Harrenhal?

(I had always assumed that Elia was in the early stages of pregnancy at Harrenhal, but, we don't know for sure).

If it was, then Rhaegar would know that Elia was infertile at that point, and it would be when he met Lyanna, but is Lyanna the bearer of tPtWP, or merely the Third Head of the Dragon?

A timeline? From Martin? Well, I hope we get one in the World book he is working on. Maybe one of the unofficial timelines will help? My guess, for what it is worth, is that Lyanna is meant to be the mother of the third head, but that Rhaegar still thought that Aegon was the prince that was promissed.

[y ddraig]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the board. I've read over a good part of this thread, but I didn't notice anyone touching on this idea:

Why did Rhaegar decide to become a warrior?

I believe his decision heavily supports the R+L=J theory, and this is why:

As we know, Rhaegar is suggested to have a much better idea about the PtwP prophecy than the readers have been given. He spent the better part of his youth obsessed with the tragedy at Summerhall, which we know as some “Targaryans trying to raise dragons again” catastrophe. After his years of reading and research, I believe he came across a book that contained the PtwP prophecy. I theorize that this same book also contained a more detailed explanation of how to fulfill said prophecy; which had to do with him becoming a warrior.

I kept asking myself, “What possible significance does Rhaegar becoming a warrior have over the story? Why would GRRM even add that?” Then, it hit me: Harrenhal

Let’s try to look at this objectively:

-Rhaegar reads something that is so profound it causes him to completely change his lifestyle (book worm into warrior)

-Rhaegar beats everyone at the Harrenhal tournament, which is regarded as the greatest tournament ever (doesn’t sound like something a bookworm would be capable of)

-Rhaegar kidnaps/courts Lyanna Stark inciting Robert’s Rebellion

-Rhaegar leads the Kingdom’s army into battle in one of the biggest wars Westeros ever had (so big, it results in the complete downfall of House Targaryan)

You might ask yourself, “Well, if Rhaegar was the cool guy we’re lead to believe and also had thoughts of usurping his insane father, why did he fight Robert instead of treating with him? My theory is, he wasn’t fighting for Aerys or the Iron Throne, but he was fighting to protect Lyanna (who was betrothed to Robert) while she was carrying the PtwP; his unborn son; Jon Snow.

“He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice (Stark) and fire (Targaryan).”

^^^ Rhaegar is heard to say this in Dany’s vision in the House of the Undying, and he most certainly is referring to Aegon (GRRM confirmed), but rather than this being evidence that Aegon is the PtwP, I think this is just evidence of what Rhaegar read in his youth. Notice, no other character in the story ever makes mention of the song of ice and fire related to the PtwP. I also believe GRRM deliberately put this line here because he wants to reinforce how susceptible people are at misinterpreting prophecies. When Rhaegar was born, everyone thought he was the PtwP. Then Aegon was born and Rhaegar thought it was him. Later, Aemon believes it's Dany. Just as Mel thinks Stannis is her champion. These are just a big series of misinterpretations. However, recent history in Westeros does NOT seem up for debate. Rhaegar DID read something which led him to become a warrior, he DID defeat everyone at Harrenhal, he DID fight to protect… something, and he DID mention that the PtwP has the song of ice and fire.

Thanks for reading, hope that wasn’t too long or too far off topic ;)

Very interesting. The way I interpreted the story is that Rhaegar wasn't commonly believed to be TPTWP. He himself read a lot, came across the prophecy, understood it to mean he was the one it referred to, and took up sword fighting because of that. I thought the profound, life-changing event was just that - reading the prophecy. But you're right; the prophecy wasn't exactly a secret, at least among Targaryens. Now that you mention it, it's a bit strange that no one else reached the conclusion before, given the circumstances of his birth.

Later, however, he changed his mind and believed Aegon was the one. Why was that? He must have had some additional information I guess, just as you said. One thing we don't really know anything about is the 'the dragon has three heads' part Rhaegar apparently found so meaningful.

Regarding Harrenhal, there a theories on this board that the tourney was rigged and Rhaegar was meant to win it from the start. Some even think magic was involved (Rhaegar's rubies, Melisandre's rubies, the precedent of Bloodraven using gemstone-based glamour in a tournament etc). It's also a little weird that he supposedly met Lyanna and crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty a day later, with a crown of blue winter roses associated with Winterfell. Where did he get that from on such short notice?

And, yeah, the bloody timeline. For Aegon to be between 1 and 2 years old during the sack of King's Landing, he must have been born after Harrenhal. So, even after meeting Lyanna, Rhaegar believed the Song of Ice and Fire was Aegon's. Did he change his mind? I find it hard to believe he had a prophecy mentioning ice and fire, got a child on a Stark woman, and never thought 'ice, d'oh!' I'm more inclined to believe he decided to 'kidnap' Lyanna after changing his mind again wrt the prophecy.

Rhaegar's one strange bugger, huh?

Although, tbh, in my personal fandom experience, little inconsistancies usually turn out to be plotholes, not clues.

[Alia of the knife]

A timeline? From Martin? Well, I hope we get one in the World book he is working on. Maybe one of the unofficial timelines will help? My guess, for what it is worth, is that Lyanna is meant to be the mother of the third head, but that Rhaegar still thought that Aegon was the prince that was promissed.

That sounds about right, I think.

[Dragonfish]

Later, however, he changed his mind and believed Aegon was the one. Why was that? He must have had some additional information I guess, just as you said.

According to Aemon, it was because a comet was sighted over King's Landing on the night of Aegon's conception, which Rhaegar was certain represented the "bleeding star."

[Alia of the knife]

Another nagging question I've always had about Rhaegar and Roberts Father tasked with finding him a bride, is I know the priority was to find Rhaegar a bride of Valaryian blood.

Now, for some reason, Berantheon never found one, but, I wonder if in the meantime, Roberts Father then searched the Kingdom for a suitable bride, and hence Cersei being presented, (though I knownTywin influenced that), but that went by the wayside as well.

Who put Lyanna in Roberts path?

Rickard, Rickard AND Roberts Father, Rickard and Robert?

I wonder if before Roberts parents died, he didn't go North, (if his task was to look all over after failing to find anyone with dragons blood), to look for a bride for Rhaegar, found Lyanna, but kept her a secret for his own son because of Winterfell?

If Rhaegar was into this prophesy of Ice and Fire, it would seem he'd be looking towards a bride that embodied that symbolism, and though Aerys was head of House Targaryen, I'm sure Rhaegar had some sway.

I wonder what Rhaegars reaction would have been if he found out that there has been a Stark Daughter initially available, but Berantheon kept her existance from him, and since Aerys likely wouldn't have liked the match, Lyanna was easy to NOT present.

That might also be a source of animosity between the Starks/Targaryens/Berantheons.

Because even if you plan to say no to such a match, (Aerys), you'd still like the choice of saying no, especially if it looks like it might have been deliberately kept from you.

Just a thought.

[The_Maltese_Wolf]

OK just going to back up a few pages to where people were doubting Robert Baratheon would kill Jon if he was indeed R + L, just a few points:

Robert loved Lyanna with all his heart (mentioned often)

Robert continually mentions how he kills Rhaegar every night in his dreams

Now, does anyone honestly think that Robert would accept the living, breathing symbol of his greatest love getting... errrr.... fornicated by the person he hates the most? I can't see it happening - Robert would undoubtedly kill Jon in a heartbeat if he knew he was the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

just sayin'

[LadyMary]

OK just going to back up a few pages to where people were doubting Robert Baratheon would kill Jon if he was indeed R + L, just a few points:

Robert loved Lyanna with all his heart (mentioned often)

Robert continually mentions how he kills Rhaegar every night in his dreams

Now, does anyone honestly think that Robert would accept the living, breathing symbol of his greatest love getting... errrr.... fornicated by the person he hates the most? I can't see it happening - Robert would undoubtedly kill Jon in a heartbeat if he knew he was the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

just sayin'

Especially if Jon's birth is part of what led to Lynna's death from fever. Robert was irrational with hatred when it came to Rhaegar, so much so that he condoned the murder of Rhaegar's children - whom he dehumanized by calling "dragon spawn". I think he'd order Jon killed, especially for being born to the woman he idolized, in a heartbeat. It wasn't just about the remaining Targaryen's claims to the throne, it was intensely personal for Robert. He wanted revenge.

[Lux in Tenebris]

OK just going to back up a few pages to where people were doubting Robert Baratheon would kill Jon if he was indeed R + L, just a few points:

Robert loved Lyanna with all his heart (mentioned often)

Robert continually mentions how he kills Rhaegar every night in his dreams

Now, does anyone honestly think that Robert would accept the living, breathing symbol of his greatest love getting... errrr.... fornicated by the person he hates the most? I can't see it happening - Robert would undoubtedly kill Jon in a heartbeat if he knew he was the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

just sayin'

No, he would have someone else kill Jon. Robert would have wanted the boy dead, but wouldn't have done the deed himself. In some ways he is the anti-Ned.

[Lux in Tenebris]

I think Arianne ends up with a lesser,but appropriate mate from Dorne, and she is sole Ruler of Dorne.

I don't see her wanting to be someone elses Queen.

I can also see her as a female Warwick if her actions with Myrcella are anything to go by, so she will be an active player as far as YG/Aegon goes, but I don't see either Jon or Aegon with a Sandsnake, (Aegon may indulge in an affair), because they are still baseborn.

I think that Margery may do for Jon as a political union, but as far as the Tyrells and even the Martells, they are natural allies of the Targaryens, (especially the Tyrells because the Targs raised them to power in the first place and the Martells are family). I think the Tyrells play a dangerous game baiting Aegon into a marriage with thrice-married Marge when he could accuse them of Treason, and just take what he wanted, especially if he ends up with a dragon.

A political marriage is only useful in families, or territories they need to unite as the Targs. did with Dorn, or re-unite, and the North is the largest territory because without it, there are no Seven Kingdoms.

The North remembers and may not be willing to bend the knee, and the Starks still have name recognition in terms of loyalty which is why everyone and their brother is trying to get their hands on a Stark, even while broken, so Arya had better stay out of Westeros, and Sansa under cover.

Myrcella and Shireen would also be more viable political matches to reunite fractured power families, but Myrcella is likely dead and the Martells are hiding that fact and Shireen is probably going to die from her illness.

Dany is now with the Dothraki again, so Aegon will be waiting awhile.

Why are we thinking that Myrcella is likely dead?

[Alia of the knife]

Why are we thinking that Myrcella is likely dead?

Just a gut feeling, but of course, I could be wrong.

While Darkstar may have missed decapitating her, he still may have been able to mortally wound her.

Being a young girl, she may have not had the stamina to recover from something like that.

[y ddraig]

OK just going to back up a few pages to where people were doubting Robert Baratheon would kill Jon if he was indeed R + L, just a few points:

Robert loved Lyanna with all his heart (mentioned often)

Robert continually mentions how he kills Rhaegar every night in his dreams

Now, does anyone honestly think that Robert would accept the living, breathing symbol of his greatest love getting... errrr.... fornicated by the person he hates the most? I can't see it happening - Robert would undoubtedly kill Jon in a heartbeat if he knew he was the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

just sayin'

Ned certainly thinks so, and I see no reason to doubt his judgement.

And even if Ned could have persuaded Robert to let Jon live, I think what Catelyn says to Robb about making Jon his heir applies here, too: you can trust him, but can you trust his heirs? Robert was a reckless man and could have got himself killed in a hunting accident or tavern brawl any time. After that, as soon as Joffrey was born, the Lannisters would be in charge, and Tywin certainly coudn't afford letting a Targaryen live after the Sack.