R+L=J #33

[Lady Octarina]

There's Howland or Wylla. Might be something in the White Book. Bran perhaps. Or maybe no one reveals it at all and it's known only to the reader.

Cersei and friends won't give a shit. The only people who would care, if Jon made a claim to the throne (which I find very unlikely), are the ones who support Jon.

Or, if Jon is the main responsible for saving Westeros from the White Walkers and is recognized as such, his being Rhaegar's son can justify a claim to the throne he would already have anyway by acclamation.

And, on who would know the truth, let's not forget the possibility that Ashara knew, and is still alive, disguised as Lemore.

[Supa508]

The only living soul from the ToJ is Howland Reed. Truly the only person he needs to convince is Dany or Aegon, and it works into their favor, the dragon has three heads.

[Alia of the knife]

I think it depends on how it's pronounced. To me, it looks more like it would be pronounced similar to Aaron.

Now, Euron....definitely urine.

Great call out on the pronunciation.

[Ygrain]

The only living soul from the ToJ is Howland Reed. Truly the only person he needs to convince is Dany or Aegon, and it works into their favor, the dragon has three heads.

Nope. They found Ned holding Lyanna's body and someone had to nurse Jon, so at least one person had to be present - very likely, Wylla.

[ivorydoom]

I agree with Ygraine -

If this is the scenario, Lyanna surely would have had some women attending her, maybe even a maester. It seems pretty unlikely that Rhaegar (or anyone with any semblance of intelligence) would leave a pregnant woman alone with a bunch of men who've likely never even experienced a birth let alone know how to assist in one.

This is pretty much affirmed by the "They" in the story of TOJ.

My assumption is that the people that were their were smallfolk of sorts and didnt merit naming.

[Alia of the knife]

I agree with Ygraine -

If this is the scenario, Lyanna surely would have had some women attending her, maybe even a maester. It seems pretty unlikely that Rhaegar (or anyone with any semblance of intelligence) would leave a pregnant woman alone with a bunch of men who've likely never even experienced a birth let alone know how to assist in one.

This is pretty much affirmed by the "They" in the story of TOJ.

My assumption is that the people that were their were smallfolk of sorts and didnt merit naming.

Agree with this as well, unless Rhaegar overestimated Lyannas physical strength as Knight of the Laughing Tree, and didn't think she'd have any problems, unlike Elia who everyone expected to die, but never quite did.

[Ygrain]

Agree with this as well, unless Rhaegar overestimated Lyannas physical strength as Knight of the Laughing Tree, and didn't think she'd have any problems, unlike Elia who everyone expected to die, but never quite did.

Fit or not, in most societies, the woman is not expected to cut the umbilical cord and remove the placenta herself, hence a midwife (or at least someone who won't faint seeing a birthing woman, for which brave knights do not necessarily qualify), therefore I think it is quite a safe guess that Rhaegar did arrange for someone to tend to Lyanna :-)

[Lux in Tenebris]

Agree with this as well, unless Rhaegar overestimated Lyannas physical strength as Knight of the Laughing Tree, and didn't think she'd have any problems, unlike Elia who everyone expected to die, but never quite did.

Do you think Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

[Alia of the knife]

Fit or not, in most societies, the woman is not expected to cut the umbilical cord and remove the placenta herself, hence a midwife (or at least someone who won't faint seeing a birthing woman, for which brave knights do not necessarily qualify), therefore I think it is quite a safe guess that Rhaegar did arrange for someone to tend to Lyanna :-)

Oh no, I think Wylla was the midwife, I was just thinking more broadly that perhaps the Starfall Maester should have been in place as well, because had Lyanna been at Winterfell, Stormsend, and certainly at KL a Maester more so than a midwife probably would have been in attendence.

Now maybe it was too much of a risk, or just wasn't possible, but I imagine Rhaegar did not anticipate her death.

Do you think Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

Yes, but whats more, even my Husband thinks she is, and he's the most skeptical, devils-advocate-arguing individual alive. :P

[Lux in Tenebris]

Oh no, I think Wylla was the midwife, I was just thinking more broadly that perhaps the Starfall Maester should have been in place as well, because had Lyanna been at Winterfell, Stormsend, and certainly at KL a Maester more so than a midwife probably would have been in attendence.

Now maybe it was too much of a risk, or just wasn't possible, but I imagine Rhaegar did not anticipate her death.

Yes, but whats more, even my Husband thinks she is, and he's the most skeptical, devils-advocate-arguing indidivual alive. :P

It is a fantastic theory that really works. I hadn't even thought of it, I just assumed it was Howland. Now that I have heard it I feel foolish for never thinking of it myself.

[Libby]

I don't think there was someone in the tower besides Lyanna. Ned hold her hand and "the first who found him was Howland Reed"...etc.

So he was probably alone with her until Howland Reed came up.

[Scarlet Seastar]

I was just thinking, what if finding out what Aerys did to Brandon and Rickard was the catalyst that made Rhaegar go to the Trident?

Here, I am assuming this:

1. Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped

2. They hide for months and months, not knowing about the war.

3. After Aerys kills Brandon and Rickard, the KG go to find Rhaegar and tell him the news.

4. Rhaegar feels guilty, and goes back, leaving the pregnant Lyanna at the ToJ with them.

5. Now, the guilt part is very important. May be he thought he deserved to die after what his father did to Brandon and Rickard. May be he wanted to end the war, but Robert didn't want to listen.

I also find it curious why Brandon would storm to KL and not stop to think. i know he doesn't seem the type to actually stop and think, but I mean, certainly it came to his mind that if Rhaegar really did kidnap Lyanna just because he wanted to, that he wouldn't take her there?

I'm going back to Harrenhal with this. At Harrenhal, only the then Stark children were present. I have always wondered why Rickard[who had southern ambitions apparently] didn't attend this tourney.

What if Rhaegar was really planning to usurp Aerys, and needed all the lords, but Rickard, sensing this and not wanting to be in trouble[starks never play the game, do they?] only sends his children? Then, Rhaegar's plan to have all the lords fails, and in addition, Aerys himself attends the tourney.

However, Rhaegar meets Lyanna there, thinks whatever he thinks, may be he does reveal her as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, but wanting to do it right, he goes to her eldest brother to ask for her hand. Brandon refuses, but Rhaegar and Lyanna decide to elope nevertheless. Now, because Brandon knew Rhaegar's intentions, he thinks he will take her to KL to be his second wife, and goes there to stop it. Without really thinking.

Meanwhile, that was Rhaegar initial plan, but with Brandon refusing, he has to change it, so he doesn't take Lyanna to KL, but he still marries her somewhere where Brandon wouldn't be able to prevent it from happening.

When Rhaegar finds out what happened, feeling really guilty, goes to fight, and/or die, because Jon has already been conceived. May be he got it into his head that he deserved to die because of the consequences of his actions.

[ArabellaVidal]

I'm pretty sure this has already been discussed but can someone bring me upto date regarding supposed sequence of events.

Ned and his party of seven defeat the three Kingsguard. He goes into the tower and finds Lyanna on a 'bed of blood'. She dies. He buries the dead exceptfor Lyanna. He takes Dawn to Starfall. Does he take Lyanna's body and Jon with Wylla with him there? What is Gerold Dayne's purpose in the story? Has any speculation been made regarding him, other than him being Arthur Dayne?

[Ygrain]

I don't think there was someone in the tower besides Lyanna. Ned hold her hand and "the first who found him was Howland Reed"...etc.

So he was probably alone with her until Howland Reed came up.

But that's not what the book says. He held her until they found him and HR released her hand from his.

I was just thinking, what if finding out what Aerys did to Brandon and Rickard was the catalyst that made Rhaegar go to the Trident?

Here, I am assuming this:

1. Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped

2. They hide for months and months, not knowing about the war.

3. After Aerys kills Brandon and Rickard, the KG go to find Rhaegar and tell him the news.

4. Rhaegar feels guilty, and goes back, leaving the pregnant Lyanna at the ToJ with them.

5. Now, the guilt part is very important. May be he thought he deserved to die after what his father did to Brandon and Rickard. May be he wanted to end the war, but Robert didn't want to listen.

IMHo, form Jaime's memories of the last time he talked to Rhaegar, it seemed that Rhaegar was planning to depose Aerys and definitely didn't seem depressed but rather confident. There is no implication of a deathwish.

I also find it curious why Brandon would storm to KL and not stop to think. i know he doesn't seem the type to actually stop and think, but I mean, certainly it came to his mind that if Rhaegar really did kidnap Lyanna just because he wanted to, that he wouldn't take her there?

I'm going back to Harrenhal with this. At Harrenhal, only the then Stark children were present. I have always wondered why Rickard[who had southern ambitions apparently] didn't attend this tourney.

What if Rhaegar was really planning to usurp Aerys, and needed all the lords, but Rickard, sensing this and not wanting to be in trouble[starks never play the game, do they?] only sends his children? Then, Rhaegar's plan to have all the lords fails, and in addition, Aerys himself attends the tourney.

However, Rhaegar meets Lyanna there, thinks whatever he thinks, may be he does reveal her as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, but wanting to do it right, he goes to her eldest brother to ask for her hand. Brandon refuses, but Rhaegar and Lyanna decide to elope nevertheless. Now, because Brandon knew Rhaegar's intentions, he thinks he will take her to KL to be his second wife, and goes there to stop it. Without really thinking.

Meanwhile, that was Rhaegar initial plan, but with Brandon refusing, he has to change it, so he doesn't take Lyanna to KL, but he still marries her somewhere where Brandon wouldn't be able to prevent it from happening.

When Rhaegar finds out what happened, feeling really guilty, goes to fight, and/or die, because Jon has already been conceived. May be he got it into his head that he deserved to die because of the consequences of his actions.

I've always found it peculiar that Brandon came yelling "come out and die" instead of "release my sister at once", which, IMHO, should be the first thought on any brother's mind if he believed that his sister was kidnapped. It would, however, make perfect sense if Brandon knew that Lyanna went willingly and wanted to avenge the besmirched Stark honour.

I'm pretty sure this has already been discussed but can someone bring me upto date regarding supposed sequence of events.

Ned and his party of seven defeat the three Kingsguard. He goes into the tower and finds Lyanna on a 'bed of blood'. She dies. He buries the dead exceptfor Lyanna. He takes Dawn to Starfall. Does he take Lyanna's body (1) and Jon with Wylla (2) with him there? What is Gerold Dayne's purpose in the story? Has any speculation been made regarding him, other than him being Arthur Dayne?(3)

1) Unknown. IMHO, he does, but just the bones (or ashes), or else the body would decompose

2) Unknown, but most probably yes - he would have to send them on a several months' journey across the continent, whereas at Starfall he can put them on a ship directly to the North, without anyone knowing about their existence and realising the connection to ToJ.

3) I sincerely hope that his sole purpose is being the D-bag who hurt a little girl. I haven't heard the theory that he might be Arthur Dayne but I think it highly improbable - Arthur was a famous, legendary figure whose face was known to many people, it would be difficult for him to assume a false identity as another member of his own house. More importantly, Arthur as a paragon of chivalry virtues would never attack Myrcella.

[Lux in Tenebris]

I'm pretty sure this has already been discussed but can someone bring me upto date regarding supposed sequence of events.

Ned and his party of seven defeat the three Kingsguard. He goes into the tower and finds Lyanna on a 'bed of blood'. She dies. He buries the dead exceptfor Lyanna. He takes Dawn to Starfall. Does he take Lyanna's body and Jon with Wylla with him there? What is Gerold Dayne's purpose in the story? Has any speculation been made regarding him, other than him being Arthur Dayne?

Many have proposed that Wylla was Lyanna's wetnurse at the TOJ, and she traveled to Starfall with Ned and baby Jon (and possibly Howland?) Nursed Jon and Edric Dayne until Jon was well enough to travel (hence Ashara rumors) back North.

I think it is safe to say that Gerold Dayne is not the same person as Arthur, simply because of the age gap.

[ArabellaVidal]

1) Unknown. IMHO, he does, but just the bones (or ashes), or else the body would decompose

2) Unknown, but most probably yes - he would have to send them on a several months' journey across the continent, whereas at Starfall he can put them on a ship directly to the North, without anyone knowing about their existence and realising the connection to ToJ.

3) I sincerely hope that his sole purpose is being the D-bag who hurt a little girl. I haven't heard the theory that he might be Arthur Dayne but I think it highly improbable - Arthur was a famous, legendary figure whose face was known to many people, it would be difficult for him to assume a false identity as another member of his own house. More importantly, Arthur as a paragon of chivalry virtues would never attack Myrcella.

1. What do you mean by bones? Does he wait for the body to decompose? I didn't get that in the book either. I think it was bones, not ashes.

2. That makes sense. It would also explain why people at Starfall thought Jon was Wylla's and Ned's. Does this mean that Ashara knew the truth because you can't just take a noblewoman's maid without explaining why. But if Wylla was a wet-nurse, where is her baby and who was the father? The wild wolf?

3. I don't think he's Arthur Dayne either but his depiction in Arianne's Queenmaker chapter is oddly poetic and intense for such a brief appearance. He doesn't read like a plot device. There is something more there but that still appears to be a mystery.

I think it is safe to say that Gerold Dayne is not the same person as Arthur, simply because of the age gap.

Is his age mentioned at all in the novels? Gerold's not Arthur's.

[The wolf dragon]

This is my first post and I'm sorry I'm getting off subject but this is driving me crazy. No one seems to mention that Mormont's raven calls Jon, King Jon. Doesn't that seem like some huge forshadowing?

[Kosh Naranek]

I thought so when I read it.

You might enjoy this thread on Mormont's raven.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/72013-mormonts-raven-a-re-read/

[Lux in Tenebris]

1. What do you mean by bones? Does he wait for the body to decompose? I didn't get that in the book either. I think it was bones, not ashes.

2. That makes sense. It would also explain why people at Starfall thought Jon was Wylla's and Ned's. Does this mean that Ashara knew the truth because you can't just take a noblewoman's maid without explaining why. But if Wylla was a wet-nurse, where is her baby and who was the father? The wild wolf?

3. I don't think he's Arthur Dayne either but his depiction in Arianne's Queenmaker chapter is oddly poetic and intense for such a brief appearance. He doesn't read like a plot device. There is something more there but that still appears to be a mystery.

Is his age mentioned at all in the novels? Gerold's not Arthur's.

I believe he is described as being a youth in his early 20's, though to be fair I read that on the forum.

[ArabellaVidal]

I believe he is described as being a youth in his early 20's, though to be fair I read that on the forum.

In the Queenmaker chapter there is absolutely no mention of his age, not even in relation to anyone else.