R+L=J #33

[Lux in Tenebris]

In the Queenmaker chapter there is absolutely no mention of his age, not even in relation to anyone else.

Correct. I think it is commonly inferred he is young, but that could very well be opinion.

However, taken from another Darkstar thread:

I'm quite sure this isn't true. He laid out a very clear argument for why Myrcella had to die for Ariane's ambitions to come to fruition. It may be that this argument was masking his real intentions, but that there were considered intentions there were, I think, true.

For that matter, I don't think Arianne was concerned that Darkstar would start a fight with Ser Arys, but rather the reverse: if Arys found out that Darkstar was a lover of hers, she feared Arys would start something.

Arianne used to dream of a man much like her uncle ravishing her, and in a sense Darkstar seems to fulfill that: the cruelty, the dangerous nature, and so on.

GRRM has been asked about Darkstar's age, BTW, and he made it clear that he didn't really know off the top of his head. Which mainly shows that theories dependent on his being a particular age are probably non-starters, because GRRM himself doesn't seem to have any particular age-related plans for Ser Gerold.

[ArabellaVidal]

Correct. I think it is commonly inferred he is young, but that could very well be opinion.

However, taken from another Darkstar thread:

Thanks for that. I do remember GRRM wondering why people weren't more interested in Darkstar. So there does seem to be more to him, more Dayne-related than anything else. He wants to start a war with Westeros and is a very angry man. It might have to do with events at the Tower of Joy.

He scoffs at the story of Garin the Great who is considered a glorious figure in Dornish history, having "led a quarter of a million men to their deaths." He then dismisses the greatness of Arthur Dayne and attributes it solely to Dawn. He might simply be angry at not being thought worthy of being the Sword of the Morning. But his anger is great and if it is related to the sword, then it is possible that he tried in the past to be worthy of being it's wielder. Does this mean he might not be a Dayne by birth, or not a true-born Dayne? I dunno! He is of the 'night' not dawn or morning.

Who knows, he might have been Ashara's lover in the past!

Back to the topic!

[Lady Octarina]

Thanks for that. I do remember GRRM wondering why people weren't more interested in Darkstar. So there does seem to be more to him, more Dayne-related than anything else. He wants to start a war with Westeros and is a very angry man. It might have to do with events at the Tower of Joy.

Well, my own theories depend on Darkstar being relevant, but wasn't GRRM actually surprised that people were so interested in him, instead of not interested?

[Lux in Tenebris]

Well, my own theories depend on Darkstar being relevant, but wasn't GRRM actually surprised that people were so interested in him, instead of not interested?

I believe he was actually surprised by how universally HATED and despised Darkstar was.

[Lux in Tenebris]

Thanks for that. I do remember GRRM wondering why people weren't more interested in Darkstar. So there does seem to be more to him, more Dayne-related than anything else. He wants to start a war with Westeros and is a very angry man. It might have to do with events at the Tower of Joy.

He scoffs at the story of Garin the Great who is considered a glorious figure in Dornish history, having "led a quarter of a million men to their deaths." He then dismisses the greatness of Arthur Dayne and attributes it solely to Dawn. He might simply be angry at not being thought worthy of being the Sword of the Morning. But his anger is great and if it is related to the sword, then it is possible that he tried in the past to be worthy of being it's wielder. Does this mean he might not be a Dayne by birth, or not a true-born Dayne? I dunno! He is of the 'night' not dawn or morning.

Who knows, he might have been Ashara's lover in the past!

Back to the topic!

I believe he is of High Hermitage, not Starfall, so it is not surprising he would not found "worthy" of Dawn.

[Brandon Martell]

I believe he was actually surprised by how universally HATED and despised Darkstar was.

Well he pretty much introduced him in one chapter and made him attack an innocent little girl in that same chapter. I can't see how he wouldn't be universally hated.

[Brandon Martell]

anyone else noticed that Ned's last words to Jon in the TV show (The Kingsroad) is "I promise"?

[ArabellaVidal]

anyone else noticed that Ned's last words to Jon in the TV show (The Kingsroad) is "I promise"?

Oooooh! That proves R+L=J! ;)

Seriously, that's a good catch!

[Dragonfish]

Nursed Jon and Edric Dayne until Jon was well enough to travel (hence Ashara rumors) back North.

Just a small correction: Edric was born years after Jon was, so they were never nursed at the same time.

Well he pretty much introduced him in one chapter and made him attack an innocent little girl in that same chapter. I can't see how he wouldn't be universally hated.

Jaime tried to kill a child. Sandor did kill a child. Yet both characters are well-liked among the fandom. The reason people dislike Darkstar is that he tried and failed to kill a child, thereby deflating his badass image that the author was trying to create for him. See, for a lot of the fandom, a character can do plenty of horrible things, but as long as he's a badass, then it's ok to like him.

anyone else noticed that Ned's last words to Jon in the TV show (The Kingsroad) is "I promise"?

Yes, it is rather telling. More so than Ned's "you have my blood" line. The producers were clearly giving a hint that only book-readers would understand.

[Brandon Martell]

Jaime tried to kill a child. Sandor did kill a child. Yet both characters are well-liked among the fandom. The reason people dislike Darkstar is that he tried and failed to kill a child, thereby deflating his badass image that the author was trying to create for him. See, for a lot of the fandom, a character can do plenty of horrible things, but as long as he's a badass, then it's ok to like him.

Well I'll say most people hated Jaime in that Bran chapter. If that chapter was the only chapter where Jaime appears in aGoT, I'm sure almost everyone would hate Jaime until they read SoS. But both Jaime and Sandor actually do more than just kill children. Darkstar just scratches a child and runs away.

[Lux in Tenebris]

Just a small correction: Edric was born years after Jon was, so they were never nursed at the same time.

Jaime tried to kill a child. Sandor did kill a child. Yet both characters are well-liked among the fandom. The reason people dislike Darkstar is that he tried and failed to kill a child, thereby deflating his badass image that the author was trying to create for him. See, for a lot of the fandom, a character can do plenty of horrible things, but as long as he's a badass, then it's ok to like him.

Yes, it is rather telling. More so than Ned's "you have my blood" line. The producers were clearly giving a hint that only book-readers would understand.

Thanks. I was trying to make the timeline work in my own head and it didn't make sense -- that does. Odd that Wylla told Edric that she nursed Jon though, right? Especially when we consider than Ned claims Wylla is Jon's mother.

[Alia of the knife]

It is a fantastic theory that really works. I hadn't even thought of it, I just assumed it was Howland. Now that I have heard it I feel foolish for never thinking of it myself.

That is a theory that has been around for awhile, but I think it's valid.

But, as "Butterbumps" put it once, I hope that The Knight of the Laughing Tree won't be just a vehicle for Rhaegar and Lyanna to meet, but stand alone as a symbol himself/herself of true honor and nobility, something that was being lost in and increasingly corrupt Kingdom.

[Alia of the knife]

Well I'll say most people hated Jaime in that Bran chapter. If that chapter was the only chapter where Jaime appears in aGoT, I'm sure almost everyone would hate Jaime until they read SoS. But both Jaime and Sandor actually do more than just kill children. Darkstar just scratches a child and runs away.

You make a good point, but it's true that we won't have any context for why, or the extreme DS went to in trying to kill a little a girl, (he wasn't successful, but I think it's safe to say he was), until we truly know whats driving his anger.

When we find out, some may be as forgiving of him as they seem to be of Jaimie.

Sandor may have hated what he'd become, but it didn't stop him from doing what he did, and while it's cathartic to see Jaimie having some sort of epiphany and seemingly redemptive arc, he did throw an eight year old boy out a window, the son of the Warden of the North and his host, just recently at his mature age, over being caught in an affair.

He says he did what he did for love, if DS did what he did for hate, at least I think that is more honest.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Thanks. I was trying to make the timeline work in my own head and it didn't make sense -- that does. Odd that Wylla told Edric that she nursed Jon though, right? Especially when we consider than Ned claims Wylla is Jon's mother.

Not odd at all. I think she DID nurse Jon. But that doesn't mean that she couldn't also have nursed the younger Edric Dayne.

[Bushido]

On my Eddard re-read and noticed duality of his pains (relentless old guilts) - he speaks both of broken promises and price he paid to keep them. Surely,if he means of Lyanna,why such discrepancies ?

It is his visit to newborn Bara that sets in motion this subject - he promises her mother,Robert's whore,that he will tell Robert of her - knowing nothing would come of it BUT makes sure he stresses the part that Bara shan't be wanting - this is something that Ned can indeed do,unlike the baren matter with Robert 's interest in the child and her mother.

Then there is the mother's smile,so sweet and tremulous that moved Ned immensely.

Ned later thinks of Jon,a bastard,and gods who fill men with such lusts.

We often say that Ned thinking of Jon as bastard is a nothing more that simple acknowledgement, for Jon is a bastard in the eyes of the world. This brings me to the notion of probability of Ned's knowing anything in detail,when he found Lyanna. She was moments away from her death and the only thing that mattered is the fate of her son. Would she be able to tell Ned of her true relationship's nature to Rhaegar(just a mistress or second wife? The time was running out. Could it be that,to Ned's knowledge, Jon is a bastard,only not his own? We have the presence of the Kingsguard and a plucky raven,but what connections could Ned make,and especially in a wake of such an emotional turmoil?

We know he made a promise,but he speaks of promises both kept and broken.

Situation's with Bara's mother could be the key - did he promised to keep her son safe/taken care of and to tell Rhaegar of his existence? For,what Lyanna could know what was happening in the realm? The Kingsguard could be informed,but she,girl in a delicate state,could it be that she was shielded both physically and mentally?

The brothel scene was the second time Ned's reacted so deeply to a girl's pleading,the first time involving Sansa,his beloved daughter he was unable to help or give solace to, and Bara's mother,no kin of his,but her situation so close to his heart. Only bigger resemblance to Lyanna (a person he loved so much) could cause such a reaction(note Lyanna's /whore's smile). As I said,he later thinks of Jon,a bastard.

Followed by an attack,that ended in his men being dead,and such a saddness,that he crawled to Jory's body.

Yet his feverish dream took him 14 yrs back. Two high-impact moments, Bara vs the attack and his sensitive state of mind brought up the Tower of Joy.

So,what in that day struck with him so hard that leads to Tower of Joy moments? - Bara's mother. And the dream gives the motivations.

[Lady Octarina]

On my Eddard re-read and noticed duality of his pains (relentless old guilts) - he speaks both of broken promises and price he paid to keep them. Surely,if he means of Lyanna,why such discrepancies ?

I always took the broken promises line to mean that he either promised he would tell Jon the truth at some point, but the way his situation was in KL he just didn't see how that would be possible, or that he promised he would fight for his claim if he chose to pursue it (but, since he allowed him to join the Watch, that wouldn't happen). The thing is, it's not clear how long Ned was with Lyanna in the Tower before she died. Could be just some five minutes, she was probably too feverish to be coherent, yes, but exactly because of her state she might have revealed more than she otherwise would.

Argh, that's one of the most frustrating subjects in ASoIaF! But you're right, we don't give the "broken promises" half as much thought as we give the price he paid to keep the other.

[The guy from the Vale]

I always took the broken promises line to mean that he either promised he would tell Jon the truth at some point, but the way his situation was in KL he just didn't see how that would be possible, or that he promised he would fight for his claim if he chose to pursue it (but, since he allowed him to join the Watch, that wouldn't happen). The thing is, it's not clear how long Ned was with Lyanna in the Tower before she died. Could be just some five minutes, she was probably too feverish to be coherent, yes, but exactly because of her state she might have revealed more than she otherwise would.

Argh, that's one of the most frustrating subjects in ASoIaF! But you're right, we don't give the "broken promises" half as much thought as we give the price he paid to keep the other.

I always took it that Ned broke promises to other people than Lyanna, and that was the price he payed to keep hers. Ned lied to his wife and seemingly dishonored her, but he had promised to honor and trust her. He had sworn loyalty to Robert, but in hiding Jon he broke that promise.

[Lady Octarina]

Catelyn and Robert - he swore vows to them, as his wife and his king, not promises. Well, yes, I suppose you could be right and that's what he meant, but since one has such an official character and the other an emotional one, I tend to consider them different things, even if their meanings are similar.

[Budj]

I think the ToJ scene was affirmation (without actually out right saying it) that Ned understood the meaning of the KG presence there. It was left up to us to decipher the meaning of it.

[HyacinthGirl]

I was wondering (sorry, probably haven't read all the pages of all 33 threads on this, although I am a believer in the theory) if anyone had any ideas as to how Benjen fits in with R+L=J?

I was thinking about possible reasons for Benjen joining the NW, and this is the best I could come up with. We can guess, from Bran's weirwood visions that Benjen and Lyanna were close. Also, Benjen seems to have a stronger relationship with Jon than the other Stark kids, and not just because Jon joins the NW. Could Benjen have known about R+L from a very early stage, and supported her relationship with him? And then, when everything went to pieces and Lyanna, Rickard, Brandon and Rhaegar basically died because of the relationship that he helped to conceal, he felt so guilty that he left Winterfell for the Nights Watch? This would also be why he treats Jon differently, but I know that could simply be due to Jon generally being more similar to Benjen than the others.