R+L=J #33

[Old-Growth]

Jem: Lord Eddard's connection to House Dayne via the death of Ser Arthur and the stories about Ashara would certainly make the matter the subject of gossip in Starfall; contrarywise, so far as we can tell---until GRRM tells us otherwise, Lord Eddard had very good reason to suppress any talk of the matter in Winterfell. We have to assume some sort of deal at least with Wylla---bear in mind here GRRM's remark that Ashara wasn't "nailed down" in Starfall after the Harrenhall Tourney, and Wylla probably wasn't either.

[Old-Growth]

As for Dany and Jon marrying, I have a hard time seeing that except for explicitly political purposes - these two are quite different in a number of ways. The only things they have in common are their unknown family bonds and their empathy.

Political purposes are quite enough, so it doth seem to me, on some assumptions modest enough IMHO. Our author has said if I understand correctly that tho' rare it has happened that a member of the Night's Watch has been licitly released from their vows---it would be amusing if the principal requirement for this was consent of the lord commander.

Where is Samwell when we need him?

[LadyMary]

:cheers:

It's not just that Benjen has disappeared and Ned has died, it's that nobody (i.e. Jon, Bran, or maybe even Cat) has thought about why Benjen took the black, and nobody in the NW ever discusses it, which makes me think it could well be part of a secret as big as R+L.

The fact that Ned never thought about it could be due to how it links in with R+L=J and how he never, ever lets himself go there, or at least, no further than "promise me, Ned" (when he isn't delirious and in a fever dream).

The reason for many of the black brothers joining the NW has been discussed at some point, usually internally by Jon, and Bran is always going on about Stark family history. What I'm saying is that I feel like GRRM has pointedly kept it quiet, and there wouldn't be much point in doing that if it was just to do with a minor scandal or one of Benjen's character traits that could have easily been briefly covered, as it has been for many of the black brothers.

Sorry if this is a little off-topic, I'm just interested to discuss how Benjen could fit in with this theory.

I happen to believe the theories that Benjen joined the NW out of guilt or for penance because he had a role in Lyanna's elopement with Rhaegar that lead to the deaths of Rickard, Brandon, Lyanna and Rhaegar as well as thousands of others.

That being said, it's not hard for to assume that the third son of Lord Stark - a family that ruled the North for thousands of years, helped to found the Night's Watch and manned it with many of its own over the NW's history, would join because of honor and tradition. By the time Ned returned to Winterfell after Robert's Rebellion, he was married and his wife was pregnant or had given birth to his trueborn heir. That meant that Benjen had a remote chance of being Ned's heir, and was thus, not needed at Winterfell and would have taken his place as one of his brother's bannermen, or found another path...the Night's Watch.

If Benjen knew that Jon was a (legitimate or otherwise) son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, he would have to keep Ned's secret to protect his nephew. Enlisting in the NW takes him further out of sight, out of mind. Even if someone were to be suspicious of Ned's story of Jon's parentage, they wouldn't think to question Ned's kid brother who is off ranging beyond the Wall.

So, there are numerous good reasons for Benjen to join the NW, more so if R+L=J and he knew it.

[Jem]

If Benjen knew that Jon was a (legitimate or otherwise) son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, he would have to keep Ned's secret to protect his nephew. Enlisting in the NW takes him further out of sight, out of mind. Even if someone were to be suspicious of Ned's story of Jon's parentage, they wouldn't think to question Ned's kid brother who is off ranging beyond the Wall.

So, there are numerous good reasons for Benjen to join the NW, more so if R+L=J and he knew it.

Further to this point, if R+L=J became common knowledge, Ned would be charged with treason. We have seen how Ned went to great lengths to protect Cat from any knowledge of Jon's true identity, even to the extent that he was willing to jeopardise his own marriage. I could see honourable Ned trying to protect Benjen from any involvement in the Jon thing by very strongly encouraging Benjen to enlist in the NW. By enlisting in the NW, Benjen is essentially severing his ties with House Stark and aligning himself with the neutral NW, thereby distancing himself from the danger of being indicted for treason along with Ned.

[Ponzo]

i would hate it to be R+L = J

That would be the cruelst thing that could happen to Jon.

Jon thinks his father is Ned Stark, an honorable and just man.

guess how jon feels if he would find out that his father was a harp playing targaryen princeling, who has shown his "honor" by stealing / running (whatever way you like it) away with lyanna, bringing destruction and death to his house, his wife, his kids.

yeah, what a great father! can you imagine how happy jon would be ? i dont

[FrozenFire3]

i would hate it to be R+L = J

That would be the cruelst thing that could happen to Jon.

Jon thinks his father is Ned Stark, an honorable and just man.

guess how jon feels if he would find out that his father was a harp playing targaryen princeling, who has shown his "honor" by stealing / running (whatever way you like it) away with lyanna, bringing destruction and death to his house, his wife, his kids.

yeah, what a great father! can you imagine how happy jon would be ? i dont

Well, most people in GRRM's universe think very highly of him (Ned, Barristan, Jorah, Jamie etc. Not to mention that the honourable and just Arthur Dayne was his closest friend).

As a matter of fact we don't know how and why he did what he did. The range and the depth of his motivations. We struggle with clues, wild interpretations, crackpot theories. We guess. But we do not know. Was the kidnapping/elopement planned? Was it a reckless act or integral to a bigger political and prophetical design? Was Lyanna involved in the planning? What role did third parties play? Did Elia knew? Did Elia encourage her husband to implement the scheme/fulfill the prophecies/follow his heart? Did Brandon's unpredictable folly disrupt these designs?

Let's not forget that the honourable and just Eddard gave up honour in his life only for... love: love for Lyanna, love for Jon, love for his children.

I'd really suspend judgement and trust Jon to accept any struggle destiny will throw his way.

Btw, what's wrong with having musical talent??? The Mahatma Gandhi was a fine player of concertina :lol:

[Big Daddy Dave]

So if he remains Lord Commander he'll most likely never become king, right? People have also predicted Jon and Danny will marry but that doesn't seem possible either.

I don't think Jon's going to remain Lord Commander of the NW much longer. I think he will be freed up soon so the players on the board can be moved around again, setting him UP to take the iron throne at the end of the series. There are a few ways out of that:

1. Jon could be thought to be dead, then comes back to life. While "dead" he is feed from his vows, and can start a new life. Especially if he is shunned by his brothers for being unnatural.

2. While injured, he is replaced as LC. The new LC could possibly release him from his vows. Maybe to banish him or something.

3. The wall could be destroyed by the others, and the NW would end...it's um, watch. If they use the horn (and it keeps getting brought up conveniently enough) and destroy it their mission has failed anyway.

And that's just three reasons off the top of my head. I'm sure Martin can come with many others. I think of Jon's tenure as LC like Eddard or Tyrion's tenure as Hand of the King...temporary.

[The Night's Prince]

For those of you who think Jon will start to take on more Targaryen features after his "attempted assassination" please think of other half Targaryens who didn't always have "the look." Most notably, Baelor "Breakspear" Targaryen. Now I'm not sure if Baelor had deep purple eyes or not, but he definitely had dark hair without a hint of silver in it.

[Big Daddy Dave]

Good point. Jon doesn't need to be inbred to be a Targaryen, if R+L=J comes to pass, he is most likely a legitimate son born into wedlock. I think that's going to be the whole point; the poor guy has had a rough life thinking he was a bastard born out of wedlock, when in reality he was born legitimately into wedlock in the most prominent family in all of Westeros...with a claim to the iron throne. It's perfect really. I can't see his hair color holding him back when Westeros needs him most.

[Lady Octarina]

For those of you who think Jon will start to take on more Targaryen features after his "attempted assassination" please think of other half Targaryens who didn't always have "the look." Most notably, Baelor "Breakspear" Targaryen. Now I'm not sure if Baelor had deep purple eyes or not, but he definitely had dark hair without a hint of silver in it.

Oh, we know. That's not the reasoning behind it: it's just that, if Jon dies and is brought back by Melisandre, that kind of resurrection seems to affect how the person looks, make them look older . Or maybe it's not the magic itself, but the time it takes for the red priest to bring them back. I mean, look at how much Beric and Catelyn changed when that happened to hem, both physically and in terms of personality.

Not to mention silver hair is cool. :cool4:

[Yanninho]

I really love this theory. But my guess is GRRM has already heard about it, and even if he planned for it to be true, he's gonna change it, just to make us go mad, though I'm definitely waiting for Benjen Stark, Howland Reed or Ashara Dayne to resurface somehow to give us some light about this.

[Brandon Martell]

I really love this theory. But my guess is GRRM has already heard about it, and even if he planned for it to be true, he's gonna change it, just to make us go mad, though I'm definitely waiting for Benjen Stark, Howland Reed or Ashara Dayne to resurface somehow to give us some light about this.

GRRM talked about this. He avoids going to forums specifically so that he wouldn't do such a thing. He prefers making a perfectly planned ending with foreshadowing and all that even if many figured it out over changing the ending just to make it surprising to the readers.

It is much harder for series writers in this age to surprise people when you've got a few hundreds here analyzing and searching for clues.

[Big Daddy Dave]

I really hope to God Martin wouldn't change it, just to be contrary. Everything he's said in the past about his writing practices leads me to believe he'd always forge ahead with what he intended.

[The Night's Prince]

Oh, we know. That's not the reasoning behind it: it's just that, if Jon dies and is brought back by Melisandre, that kind of resurrection seems to affect how the person looks, make them look older . Or maybe it's not the magic itself, but the time it takes for the red priest to bring them back. I mean, look at how much Beric and Catelyn changed when that happened to hem, both physically and in terms of personality.

Not to mention silver hair is cool. :cool4:

Lol silver hair is hella cool! I hope he looks like my avatar picture somewhat. I think his strong will to live will keep him alive, but barely. I said "attempted assassination" for the reason of denying he died.

[ivorydoom]

i would hate it to be R+L = J

That would be the cruelst thing that could happen to Jon.

Jon thinks his father is Ned Stark, an honorable and just man.

guess how jon feels if he would find out that his father was a harp playing targaryen princeling, who has shown his "honor" by stealing / running (whatever way you like it) away with lyanna, bringing destruction and death to his house, his wife, his kids.

yeah, what a great father! can you imagine how happy jon would be ? i dont

Yah, that is sort of how I always felt about Rhaegar too. Maybe everyone in the story likes him, but I think he's a d-bag. Even if he did it for a prophecy or whatever, thats not a good enough reason in my books, he never knew who the prophecy was even about.

Plus, I read S.O.T. Prophecy is never what it seems. Its worse than making a wish!

On another subject - has anyone ever considered that Jon might be another Nights King?

I've actually been suspecting something like that from the beginning of the series before the Nights King was ever even introduced, and now that I know he dies (which I havent actually read that part yet...so bare with me) it just seems more right to me. Birds calling him King and all that business...

Anyway...scattered brained but hopefully someone gets what I'm saying.

[Ariane Martell]

Guys I notice a little something, it isn't a proof but for believers is definitely a connection

Rhaegar had silver hair, almost white just as his skin, and he wore rubies in his armor. Ghost is white and has eyes red as rubies. Maybe Ghost’s appearance doesn’t have to do with the weirwoods but with Jon’s long dead father. Does it make sense or not?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I really love this theory. But my guess is GRRM has already heard about it, and even if he planned for it to be true, he's gonna change it, just to make us go mad, though I'm definitely waiting for Benjen Stark, Howland Reed or Ashara Dayne to resurface somehow to give us some light about this.

No. For fuck's sake, no.

[SFDanny]

Yah, that is sort of how I always felt about Rhaegar too. Maybe everyone in the story likes him, but I think he's a d-bag. Even if he did it for a prophecy or whatever, thats not a good enough reason in my books, he never knew who the prophecy was even about.

What if he takes Lyanna because she asks for help getting away from a marriage she is being forced into? We know she is reluctant, to say the least, to marry a man whose character she doesn't approve of, so this isn't exactly a stretch. We also know that any politcal schemes that Rickard may have had (aka "southron ambitions") depended on Lyanna marrying the young Storm Lord - even if she wants no part of him or her father's plans. The "elopement" may have come later. Rhaegar may have "kidnapped" Lyanna to save her, at her request, to save her from a lifetime of Robert.

Not the only theory for sure, but it's my favorite.

[iusedtotoo]

Who do you reckon started the idea that she was kidnapped? Brandon?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Who do you reckon started the idea that she was kidnapped? Brandon?

Perhaps someone told Brandon she was kidnapped. He had to have known who she was with because he knew to go to King's Landing and he correctly knew that Rhaegar was involved. The obvious questions are, who told him that and what was their motive for doing so?