R+L=J #33

[Lady Octarina]

Back to the legitimacy issue though, would HR feel obligated to speak up and tell everyone what he knows once he sees Robb's will? Or will he keep quite for the time being, knowing that it would be for the greater good (ridding the North of Boltons and Freys, and putting the Starks back in Winterfell)...

If Robb did legitimize Jon in his will, I don't think it's that impossible Reed might have revealed his true identity to the Northerns that went to his land (yeah, forgot the name). I mean, if they thought Jon was the last Stark, wouldn't they have found a way by now to get some other Northerns to their cause, take him from the Wall and convince him to be their king/liege lord? But if they know he is a Targaryen, things might get a bit more complicated; after all, they all rebelled against a Targaryen king not long ago. So, this could be an explanation to their waiting so long. The other, of course, would be that Robb changed his mind in the last minute and named someone else his heir, or that they are waiting for Westerling's child to be born (if she was truly pregnant as some claimed), or whatever.

[Scarlet Seastar]

If Robb did legitimize Jon in his will, I don't think it's that impossible Reed might have revealed his true identity to the Northerns that went to his land (yeah, forgot the name). I mean, if they thought Jon was the last Stark, wouldn't they have found a way by now to get some other Northerns to their cause, take him from the Wall and convince him to be their king/liege lord? But if they know he is a Targaryen, things might get a bit more complicated; after all, they all rebelled against a Targaryen king not long ago. So, this could be an explanation to their waiting so long. The other, of course, would be that Robb changed his mind in the last minute and named someone else his heir, or that they are waiting for Westerling's child to be born (if she was truly pregnant as some claimed), or whatever.

What if Robb did legitimize Jon? It would not be that impossible, because at the time, Robb and Cat thought that Bran and Rickon were dead. Catelyn only wanted to change Robb's mind for the sake of Sansa's children, but Robb put his foot down because Sansa's children[at the time] would have been Lannisters.

But I find this scenario very likely.

1. Robb legitimizes Jon, and doesn't write in his will that he is a Stark, assuming of course, that since he is a Snow, and Ned's son, he's legitimizing him as a Stark. But doesn't write it down.

2. The will comes to Howland Reed and the little crannogman get's an idea, but first he will need supporters and allies.

3. In the end, it is revealed that Jon is a bastard-Lyanna and Rhaegar were never married-but with Robb's will Jon is legitimized, and with his true parents revealed, he has to take the name Targaryen. Which he refuses of course and remains as LC of the Wall. May be he will take over the kingdom for as long as the threat of the Others is not obliterated, and then he returns to his role as LC.

[FanTasy]

The raven says "king" early in ACOK, before Robb ever considered making Jon his heir.

... and at the time the raven is quorking there is an acting other king (more than one iirc), so the raven is quorking happily about something which has still come to pass :devil:

[Ygrain]

I've come up with a little crackpot (I'm sure someone else already has, as well, but I don't recall that): the thing hidden in the crypts of Winterfell is the Lightbringer. Lyanna and Rhaegar (Ice + Fire) went on a quest to recover it from some secret/sacred location (the Isle of Faces or Valyria or elsewhere), which is why their location was unknown so long and they were unaware of what was going on :-)

[Alia of the knife]

I've come up with a little crackpot (I'm sure someone else already has, as well, but I don't recall that): the thing hidden in the crypts of Winterfell is the Lightbringer. Lyanna and Rhaegar (Ice + Fire) went on a quest to recover it from some secret/sacred location (the Isle of Faces or Valyria or elsewhere), which is why their location was unknown so long and they were unaware of what was going on :-)

Now thats good.

[Lady Octarina]

I've come up with a little crackpot (I'm sure someone else already has, as well, but I don't recall that): the thing hidden in the crypts of Winterfell is the Lightbringer. Lyanna and Rhaegar (Ice + Fire) went on a quest to recover it from some secret/sacred location (the Isle of Faces or Valyria or elsewhere), which is why their location was unknown so long and they were unaware of what was going on :-)

Terrific idea! Here's a few "likes" for you :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

1. Robb legitimizes Jon, and doesn't write in his will that he is a Stark, assuming of course, that since he is a Snow, and Ned's son, he's legitimizing him as a Stark. But doesn't write it down.

But that's the thing, if Robb wrote a document legitimizing Jon he would have to follow rethoric rules - it's a formalistic society, so such documents always follow a pattern (not that different from ours, really). So I'm guessing he couldn't just write "I hereby declare Jon Snow legitimate" without putting down what his name would be. He couldn't leave that to chance, seeing as the reason he would make Jon his heir is because he sees that as the only way he can protect the Stark line. So, in that document, he would have stated that he makes him "Jon Stark", specifically, because that's the whole point of legitimizing him. Now, if after that it is revealed that he has always been Jon Targaryen, the part of the will legitimizing him loses all value, though probably it would still be valid as far as stablishing him as Robb's heir goes. If it is revealed he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, but they never got married, I think since he was legitimized as a Stark, not a Targ, he gets to keep Eddard's name.

[Ygrain]

Terrific idea! Here's a few "likes" for you :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:.

Thanks!

I forgot to mention that the presence of Lightbringer might help sway the KG if they didn't feel convinced by the northern marriage thing :D

[Zupoleon]

I forgot to mention that the presence of Lightbringer might help sway the KG if they didn't feel convinced by the northern marriage thing :D

It's an interesting theory, but did Rhaegar, Lyanna, KG, et. all even know about Lightbringer? Rhaegar was very interested in the PtwP, but is there any mention of Lightbringer in that prophecy? I do belive that AA and PtwP (Last Hero too?) are multiple takes on the same prophecy that have been culturally separated. But I wonder if individually they are missing certain elements, and one needs to look at all of them to get the entire picture...

Rhaegar and Lyanna could potentially have had two pieces of the puzzle. I wonder if Lyanna made a connection to the Last Hero when / if Rhaegar told her about the PtwP. Any red priests around at that time that could have given them the third piece???

[Roukan]

I obviously have no evidence for it, but what if Jon wasn't the only child born of the pair? As in, fraternal twins. One with the likeness of Stark (and powers), and the other with Targaryen likeness (and powers?). The idea came to me earlier and I plan on reading into it a bit more, but I just wanted to throw it out there in case someone said it already and the stalking I've done for a week on this forum wasn't extensive enough.

[Lady Octarina]

It's an interesting theory, but did Rhaegar, Lyanna, KG, et. all even know about Lightbringer? Rhaegar was very interested in the PtwP, but is there any mention of Lightbringer in that prophecy? I do belive that AA and PtwP (Last Hero too?) are multiple takes on the same prophecy that have been culturally separated. But I wonder if individually they are missing certain elements, and one needs to look at all of them to get the entire picture...

Rhaegar seemed to be so prophecy-obsessed it's not impossible he might have looked into different version of that prophecy in particular. Also, I vaguely remember it being mentioned in the books (one of Arianne's chapters? or Hotah's?) that there are red temples in Dorne - what if there were some already all those years ago? Which would mean there might have been red priests in Westeros when Rhaegar was still alive, which could be a way to learn about AA. But I don't think that's even necessary; I mean, the maesters at the Citadel know about this, and, more important, maester Aemon, with whom Rhaegar exchanged some letters, knew about the AA legend, so it's not impossible he learned it from books or from inquiring maesters.

I obviously have no evidence for it, but what if Jon wasn't the only child born of the pair? As in, fraternal twins. One with the likeness of Stark (and powers), and the other with Targaryen likeness (and powers?). The idea came to me earlier and I plan on reading into it a bit more, but I just wanted to throw it out there in case someone said it already and the stalking I've done for a week on this forum wasn't extensive enough.

This hasn't been discussed the last couple of months, but many believe Lyanna had twins, or triplets. Basically, the candidates for other products from R+L would be Gerold Dayne, Young Griff, and Meera Reed. It's not impossible something like that happened, just unlikely and unnecessary.

I personally prefer the idea of ice and fire coming together in one person only that could synthesize characteristics from both.

[Alia of the knife]

Rhaegar seemed to be so prophecy-obsessed it's not impossible he might have looked into different version of that prophecy in particular. Also, I vaguely remember it being mentioned in the books (one of Arianne's chapters? or Hotah's?) that there are red temples in Dorne - what if there were some already all those years ago? Which would mean there might have been red priests in Westeros when Rhaegar was still alive, which could be a way to learn about AA. But I don't think that's even necessary; I mean, the maesters at the Citadel know about this, and, more important, maester Aemon, with whom Rhaegar exchanged some letters, knew about the AA legend, so it's not impossible he learned it from books or from inquiring maesters.

This hasn't been discussed the last couple of months, but many believe Lyanna had twins, or triplets. Basically, the candidates for other products from R+L would be Gerold Dayne, Young Griff, and Meera Reed. It's not impossible something like that happened, just unlikely and unnecessary.

I personally prefer the idea of ice and fire coming together in one person only that could synthesize characteristics from both.

I obviously have no evidence for it, but what if Jon wasn't the only child born of the pair? As in, fraternal twins. One with the likeness of Stark (and powers), and the other with Targaryen likeness (and powers?). The idea came to me earlier and I plan on reading into it a bit more, but I just wanted to throw it out there in case someone said it already and the stalking I've done for a week on this forum wasn't extensive enough.

It's probably more as Lady Octerina says, but the idea of triplets would actually be more impactful, because then you actually have literally three heads of the dragon from the same womb, with the same elemental attributes and warging abilitites.

- Jon: The Prince that was Promised, ("promise me Ned, promise me.")- King

- Aegon: Azor Ahai- Great Warrior

- Darkstar: Of the Night- The darkest brother of the three, and perhaps the one most able to challenge the evil of the long Night as he may be a little evil himself.

[Zupoleon]

Rhaegar seemed to be so prophecy-obsessed it's not impossible he might have looked into different version of that prophecy in particular. Also, I vaguely remember it being mentioned in the books (one of Arianne's chapters? or Hotah's?) that there are red temples in Dorne - what if there were some already all those years ago? Which would mean there might have been red priests in Westeros when Rhaegar was still alive, which could be a way to learn about AA. But I don't think that's even necessary; I mean, the maesters at the Citadel know about this, and, more important, maester Aemon, with whom Rhaegar exchanged some letters, knew about the AA legend, so it's not impossible he learned it from books or from inquiring maesters.

Good point. And now that I think about it, Maester Aemon's exchange with Mel shows he already knew quite about the prophecy and Lightbringer. He mentions to Sam that the Lightbringer should have been giving off heat. It makes sense that he would have shared his knowledge with Rhaegar...

[Zupoleon]

It's probably more as Lady Octerina says, but the idea of triplets would actually be more impactful, because then you actually have literally three heads of the dragon from the same womb, with the same elemental attributes and warging abilitites.

- Jon: The Prince that was Promised, ("promise me Ned, promise me.")- King

- Aegon: Azor Ahai- Great Warrior

- Darkstar: Of the Night- The darkest brother of the three, and perhaps the one most able to challenge the evil of the long Night as he may be a little evil himself.

That doesn't leave much room for Danny ;)

[Alia of the knife]

That doesn't leave much room for Danny ;)

THATS right :D

I don't know if perhaps I misunderstood Roukan, and he meant that Dany could be a twin as well?

Someone had mentioned that once before, but I don't know how one would get around the logisitics of Danys birth, especially when Viserys remembers it.

[corbon]

Someone had mentioned that once before, but I don't know how one would get around the logisitics of Danys birth, especially when Viserys remembers it.

By making theories fit facts, not inventing theories, then finding or twisting facts to fit them. :P

[LadyMary]

But that's the thing, if Robb wrote a document legitimizing Jon he would have to follow rethoric rules - it's a formalistic society, so such documents always follow a pattern (not that different from ours, really). So I'm guessing he couldn't just write "I hereby declare Jon Snow legitimate" without putting down what his name would be. He couldn't leave that to chance, seeing as the reason he would make Jon his heir is because he sees that as the only way he can protect the Stark line. So, in that document, he would have stated that he makes him "Jon Stark", specifically, because that's the whole point of legitimizing him. Now, if after that it is revealed that he has always been Jon Targaryen, the part of the will legitimizing him loses all value, though probably it would still be valid as far as stablishing him as Robb's heir goes. If it is revealed he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, but they never got married, I think since he was legitimized as a Stark, not a Targ, he gets to keep Eddard's name.

Let's say Robb did decree that Jon is his heir - and the Lord and Lady that carry this decree to Howland Reed are informed when they get there that Jon isn't Ned's son at all, but is Lyanna's son - and Rhaegar's. Why would that invalidate the decree? Robb is naming someone who was otherwise not eligible because he was illegitimate, to be Lord of Winterfell as his heir. Whether Jon is a legitimate Targaryen or a bastard Stark, one of his parents was a Stark and Jon has Stark blood in his veins. That's what matters to Robb and will matter to the Northmen. The point of Robb naming Jon would be to keep a Stark as Lord of Winterfell if he should die without a son of his own. Of course he would be Jon Stark, because he was named Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell, by Robb, the King in the North.

[Alia of the knife]

By making theories fit facts, not inventing theories, then finding or twisting facts to fit them. :P

Sooo, what your saying is that there is no way Viserys could be drunk at eight, mistook Lyanna for his Mother, (because you know Septa Lemore is really Rhaella), Lyanna has Dany at Dragonstone, then transports back to the TOJ to have Jon? :blink:

:D

[Scarlet Seastar]

Terrific idea! Here's a few "likes" for you :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

But that's the thing, if Robb wrote a document legitimizing Jon he would have to follow rethoric rules - it's a formalistic society, so such documents always follow a pattern (not that different from ours, really). So I'm guessing he couldn't just write "I hereby declare Jon Snow legitimate" without putting down what his name would be. He couldn't leave that to chance, seeing as the reason he would make Jon his heir is because he sees that as the only way he can protect the Stark line. So, in that document, he would have stated that he makes him "Jon Stark", specifically, because that's the whole point of legitimizing him. Now, if after that it is revealed that he has always been Jon Targaryen, the part of the will legitimizing him loses all value, though probably it would still be valid as far as stablishing him as Robb's heir goes. If it is revealed he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, but they never got married, I think since he was legitimized as a Stark, not a Targ, he gets to keep Eddard's name.

You're right, I forgot how formal they can be. I was just riseminded of the scene when Joffrey accepts Loras as one of the KG and Margaery as his wife to be. I almost puked when I read that.

[Roukan]

THATS right :D

I don't know if perhaps I misunderstood Roukan, and he meant that Dany could be a twin as well?

Someone had mentioned that once before, but I don't know how one would get around the logisitics of Danys birth, especially when Viserys remembers it.

Oh no, I was more referring to Lyanna's death. She was a tough woman. Granted, one difficult birth and malnourishment could have easily killed her but with Jon being a twin and heading for the Wall represnting Ice, and the other dropped off with a red priest maybe (going off of what Lady Octarina said about them being in Dorne possibly all those years ago) representing Fire would be fairly interesting.

[Ygrain]

It's an interesting theory, but did Rhaegar, Lyanna, KG, et. all even know about Lightbringer? Rhaegar was very interested in the PtwP, but is there any mention of Lightbringer in that prophecy? I do belive that AA and PtwP (Last Hero too?) are multiple takes on the same prophecy that have been culturally separated. But I wonder if individually they are missing certain elements, and one needs to look at all of them to get the entire picture...

Rhaegar and Lyanna could potentially have had two pieces of the puzzle. I wonder if Lyanna made a connection to the Last Hero when / if Rhaegar told her about the PtwP. Any red priests around at that time that could have given them the third piece???

Someone in another thread reminded that Rhaegar was in touch with Aemon, and Aemon did know about the Lightbringer, so Rhaegar may have learned from him.

Also, I've come across a piece of historical knowledge (copying from another thread):

One interesting parallel, as I am reading 1000 Years of Annoying the French:

John Lackland kidnapped and married Isabella of Angouleme, a famous beauty of her time, who was, however, betrothed to another. Neither the guy nor her father went out for John's head; instead, they complained with the king of France, who was technically John's sovereign, to settle the issue. The war that ensued afterwards was not about Isabella, who remained John's wife, but about the issues of sovereignty and independence. - Ah, and Isabella was twelve when she was kidnapped.