R+L=J #33

[corbon]

Sooo, what your saying is that there is no way Viserys could be drunk at eight, mistook Lyanna for his Mother, (because you know Septa Lemore is really Rhaella), Lyanna has Dany at Dragonstone, then transports back to the TOJ to have Jon? :blink:

:D

I'm afraid you have nailed it precisely. :cool4:

[Kosh Naranek]

Someone in another thread reminded that Rhaegar was in touch with Aemon, and Aemon did know about the Lightbringer, so Rhaegar may have learned from him.

Also, I've come across a piece of historical knowledge (copying from another thread):

One interesting parallel, as I am reading 1000 Years of Annoying the French:

John Lackland kidnapped and married Isabella of Angouleme, a famous beauty of her time, who was, however, betrothed to another. Neither the guy nor her father went out for John's head; instead, they complained with the king of France, who was technically John's sovereign, to settle the issue. The war that ensued afterwards was not about Isabella, who remained John's wife, but about the issues of sovereignty and independence. - Ah, and Isabella was twelve when she was kidnapped.

I was thinking about Jon and Isabella as well in another thread. (I believe it had to do with Dany ruling Westeros, but it got muddied with a discussion of how the Targs lost Westeros.)

If you think Jon/Isabella = Rhaegar/Lyanna...

Jon took and married Isabella. (She gave him Henry III and Richard of Cornwall. - two boys but not twins. They had 3 daughters.) I could get into the whole Simon de Montfort thing, but I shall keep to early years.

Isabella was betrothed to a one of the Angevin's powerful bannermen. This led to loss of the Angevin's lands in France. It took time, but slowly they lost ground until they were shoved off the continent and lost Anjou, Poitiers, Aquitane and Normandy.

Rhaegar took Lyanna and it resulted in the loss of the North, Riverlands, Vale and Stormlands.

The whole twins idea loses ground with me for one reason. If Ned had two nephews or a nephew and a niece, would he not claim both of them? I don't see Ned letting a child of Lyanna's be taken off and given over to someone else's care. Perhaps the child's coloring prohibited him taking it, but Ned/Ashara is floating round. Surely that would explain away a child with purple eyes?

[Scarlet Seastar]

The whole twins idea loses ground with me for one reason. If Ned had two nephews or a nephew and a niece, would he not claim both of them? I don't see Ned letting a child of Lyanna's be taken off and given over to someone else's care. Perhaps the child's coloring prohibited him taking it, but Ned/Ashara is floating round. Surely that would explain away a child with purple eyes?

But Dany is silver haired. Both Ned and Ashara were dark haired.

Also, Ned put a stop at the rumors in Winterfell that Ashara Dayne was Jon Snow's mother.

Anyway, I don't think Jon and Dany are twins. Mostly because of Dany's behavior, though I give mad Viserys credit for that. However, Jon and Dany are very different, and may be that's due to their guardians[Ned and Viserys], but, while Dany claimed that she cared for her 'children', as soon as she agreed to marry Hizdhair[or however it is spelled], she stopped holding court and dealing justice. On the other hand, when the wildlings escaped north of the Wall[what was left of Mance's forces], Jon sent Val[to Tormund], and a fleet to Hardhome to help them, despite the danger he faced in his fellow brothers of the Watch.

[Alia of the knife]

Oh no, I was more referring to Lyanna's death. She was a tough woman. Granted, one difficult birth and malnourishment could have easily killed her but with Jon being a twin and heading for the Wall represnting Ice, and the other dropped off with a red priest maybe (going off of what Lady Octarina said about them being in Dorne possibly all those years ago) representing Fire would be fairly interesting.

I know what you mean about her being tough, but she likely died from the childbed fever that killed so many women of that time.:(

[Ygrain]

Where did this idea that Jon and Dany are twins come from? GRRM clearly states different dates of birth (Jon born 8-9 before Dany), and Dany's birthplace is pretty much well known.

[Scarlet Seastar]

I know what you mean about her being tough, but she likely died from the childbed fever that killed so many women of that time. :(

Not to mention that she was probably barely 16, and may be even younger when she had Jon. I've been thinking of alternatives, in which Jon is not her son, and I'm coming up blank on 'why did she die?" I know King Bob thought that she died because Rhaegar raped her over and over again for a year, but we all know that's not true.

[Kosh Naranek]

Oh - I don't think Jon and Dany are twins. Someone up thread floated the idea that Lyanna had twins or tripletts. I guess speculation just snowballed from there.

I hope Jon is it. I cannot imagine more secret children popping up, but hey, I am along for the ride. (George could smack us all in the face and have Jon really be Ned's.)

One thing I noticed when re-reading book 1 the other night - Jon seems to really blame Cat for Ned's predicament. I had not noticed it before but he basically says that if Ned dies it will be because Cat antagonized the Lannisters. I guess that is more personally interesting than relevant to the discussion.

About Jon being legitimized as Jon Stark and Stannis and the whole "Lady Lannister" bit...

If Jon is legitimized and becomes a powerhouse (or becomes a powerhouse period), or Stannis gains ground, could not one or the other annul Sansa's marriage and free her? 1. The marriage was never consummated. 2. They could say that the Starks keep the old gods. Therefore, the marriage in the light of the seven is not valid. Of course, they would need to have her with them. I don't imagine a proxy from far off would have much weight.

Trying to pull myself back on topic...I just can't shake the feeling that if he is a Targ, Jon just won't care.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Jon is 9 mo to a year older then Dany. They are not twins.

Daemon Blackfyre chose Blackfyre after he was made legit. Bloodrave chose to keep Rivers. A bastard made legit, can chose to change their name.

There is only a few that we know that were also born during the Rebellion. Sam, Robb, Meera, Alayaya(Roberts bastard), Roslin Frey, Desmera Redwyne. I just don't see anyone that could be his twin. Maybe Meera, but you would think that Jojen or her would know that.

[Alia of the knife]

I'm afraid you have nailed it precisely. :cool4:

:thumbsup:

[Alia of the knife]

I was thinking about Jon and Isabella as well in another thread. (I believe it had to do with Dany ruling Westeros, but it got muddied with a discussion of how the Targs lost Westeros.)

If you think Jon/Isabella = Rhaegar/Lyanna...

Jon took and married Isabella. (She gave him Henry III and Richard of Cornwall. - two boys but not twins. They had 3 daughters.) I could get into the whole Simon de Montfort thing, but I shall keep to early years.

Isabella was betrothed to a one of the Angevin's powerful bannermen. This led to loss of the Angevin's lands in France. It took time, but slowly they lost ground until they were shoved off the continent and lost Anjou, Poitiers, Aquitane and Normandy.

Rhaegar took Lyanna and it resulted in the loss of the North, Riverlands, Vale and Stormlands.

The whole twins idea loses ground with me for one reason. If Ned had two nephews or a nephew and a niece, would he not claim both of them? I don't see Ned letting a child of Lyanna's be taken off and given over to someone else's care. Perhaps the child's coloring prohibited him taking it, but Ned/Ashara is floating round. Surely that would explain away a child with purple eyes?

That is a great analogy, (though I hope Rhaegar would have faired better than King John), and the other piece of that was John also had a wife, but was able to put her aside I think due to infertility.

Kidnapping, while it wasn't necessarily clever did work as a strategy for taking a particular woman off the marriage market, pretty much forcing everyones hand to accept the match, because the alternative is really unacceptable.

As far as the twins/triplets go, I think it's just having fun and also a desire to not see Jon entirely alone, though Arya stepped into that role as I think she is the spiritual connection to his Mother.

It just won't make sense until he knows who his Mother is, and then he'll realize she never really left him.

However, in terms of the sibling theory, if your going to out-Lucas Lucas, then go for the gold, and do triplets, because under the context of an alernative theory, at least triplets fits the narrative of the three heads of the dragon.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

This thread is weird. :leaving:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This thread is weird. :leaving:

This is its 33rd iteration. At this point, R+L=J is basically fact, and people have to either come up with bizarre additions, crazy alternatives for the lulz or some other speculation, because everything conventional has been discussed into the ground already. ;)

[The Drunkard]

Semi-related, and I don't think this deserves it's own thread, but anyway: Assuming all this is true and Jon ends up being the PtwP, could the three heads that are always rambled about be the three 'identities' he has? He's a Stark by blood, and could potentially get the allegiance of the North. He's a Night's Watch commander, and could have that group up his sleeve once the rowdy members are killed. He's also Wildling(ish) for obvious reasons, so maybe he could end up commanding those forces too.

I don't know, popped into my head.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Semi-related, and I don't think this deserves it's own thread, but anyway: Assuming all this is true and Jon ends up being the PtwP, could the three heads that are always rambled about be the three 'identities' he has? He's a Stark by blood, and could potentially get the allegiance of the North. He's a Night's Watch commander, and could have that group up his sleeve once the rowdy members are killed. He's also Wildling(ish) for obvious reasons, so maybe he could end up commanding those forces too.

I don't know, popped into my head.

I actually think it could end being something like that; Stark, Targaryen, Night's Watch. Or wildling king, King in the North and the Targaryen king. Something along those lines.

[Arionis]

I actually think it could end being something like that; Stark, Targaryen, Night's Watch. Or wildling king, King in the North and the Targaryen king. Something along those lines.

I think it too; besides, figuratively speaking, only if you have three heads you can have three crowns at the same moment...

[Old-Growth]

Sorry, duplicate post

[Old-Growth]

Jon won't be King Beyond the Wall without doing what is needful: which at this point means defeating Mance in single combat. Now if Mance is dead, he may still have to defeat others, such as the man he just married off to Alys Karstark. Or it could be that the Free Folk will be absorbed into the North, in which case they may become subjects of the Lord/King of the North. This will depend on the outcome of the War for the Dawn as well, so it seems to me. If the Others, Wights, et al are completely defeated, then the Free Folk may be able to move back North of the Wall.

[FrozenFire3]

Your Lady of the Links is back :cool4:

I was just reading issue #9 of A Game of Thrones: The comic Book and... :eek: finally a helmless picture of Rhaegar :leer:

Got back to my copy of the Graphic Novel Vol.1 (comprised of the initial six issues of the graphic series) and found a nice image of Jon... That's the result:

http://www.imagebam.com/image/fb26a8214244640

Nice eye shapes, lips and brows... Just saying ;)

[Alia of the knife]

Your Lady of the Links is back :cool4:

I was just reading issue #9 of A Game of Thrones: The comic Book and... :eek: finally a helmless picture of Rhaegar :leer:

Got back to my copy of the Graphic Novel Vol.1 (comprised of the initial six issues of the graphic series) and found a nice image of Jon... That's the result:

http://www.imagebam....fb26a8214244640

Nice eye shapes, lips and brows... Just saying ;)

You are AWESOME!

He does look like Rhaegar, but with Lyannas wolfish eyes, (which I suspect is a halmark of the Starks), and Rhaegar does not look elfin, (thank heaven), and quite capable of killing Robert.

(Now, I can go to work).

[Lady Octarina]

Jon won't be King Beyond the Wall without doing what is needful: which at this point means defeating Mance in single combat. Now if Mance is dead, he may still have to defeat others, such as the man he just married off to Alys Karstark. Or it could be that the Free Folk will be absorbed into the North, in which case they may become subjects of the Lord/King of the North. This will depend on the outcome of the War for the Dawn as well, so it seems to me. If the Others, Wights, et al are completely defeated, then the Free Folk may be able to move back North of the Wall.

I don't think the only way he could become King "Beyond the Wall" would be by defeating the wildlings' greatest warriors. He has proved over and over that he cares about what happens to them, defying his own men in his attempt to protect the free folk, which might have cost his life. I don't think it takes much more than that to be chosen king by them. And considering that in the near future Jon might actually become the first man in thousands of years to actually declare war against the Others (as opposed to simply defending against them), well...

Your Lady of the Links is back :cool4:

I was just reading issue #9 of A Game of Thrones: The comic Book and... :eek: finally a helmless picture of Rhaegar :leer:

Got back to my copy of the Graphic Novel Vol.1 (comprised of the initial six issues of the graphic series) and found a nice image of Jon... That's the result:

http://www.imagebam....fb26a8214244640

Nice eye shapes, lips and brows... Just saying ;)

Nice catch, even their noses are alike! Though that Rhaegar is still a bit ugly for my taste, just like their Arthur Dayne, but anyway :drool: