Reek, Reek it rhymes with...redemption.

[ab aeterno]

I find it in line with Asha's personality to want to save her brother a death by fire. Theon is basically dead and now a weak shadow of what he was. She would consider it a mercy to take his head off. It also fits. He was essentially a Northman...his terrible attitude growing up is what prevented him from seeing it and being treated like it.

Seems that the Ironborn and their Drowned God were wrong. :P

I think this is one of the central truths about Theon. While you can understand how he felt, being ripped away from his family when he was nine and always feeling as though he were apart from the Stark children, but he is one of those characters whose misfortune is almost entirely self-created. He really did bring it all upon himself. Not that that means he deserved to be tortured, of course.

[Knight errant]

I truly believe this is the end for him. Unless he proves that he didn't kill the Starks and that isn't Arya (Maybe the the "oldgods" - Bran will give a sign through the weirwood and the clansmen being the religious simple sort will buy it?) which is pretty tenuous and Stannis is a man for Justice...I think he'll lose his head... That could be is wish and redemption? The morale boost of his execution could spurr them to victory, that'd be bittersweet.

[Aerys Blackfyre]

no redemption for the bastard turncoat

he's even worse than Ramsey Bolton

[The Red Hand]

I'm always shocked at the amount of Theon hate on these forums. I find him a lot more redeemable than Jaime or Cersei, and he never shot his father with a crossbow for taking his favorite whore. Theons worst quality was his arrogance and I think its easy to develop that giving the upbringing he had. And I'm sorry OP but Reek does not in fact rhyme with redemption.

[Daenerys is my queen]

I really hope that Theon redeems himself before the end of the series. He could join the Night's Watch. Of course,Jon won't be happy to see him but oh well. :dunno:

[ab aeterno]

I'm always shocked at the amount of Theon hate on these forums. I find him a lot more redeemable than Jaime or Cersei, and he never shot his father with a crossbow for taking his favorite whore. Theons worst quality was his arrogance and I think its easy to develop that giving the upbringing he had. And I'm sorry OP but Reek does not in fact rhyme with redemption.

I don't hate Theon, and I do feel sorry for him with all his suffering. I believe that he's truly sorry but I'm not sure he has come anywhere near redeeming himself yet. For my money Jaime has gone further down that road, and was actually less awful to begin with.

[Usurper's Dog]

Can we add "not having any succession plan in place whatsoever" to the argument that Balon is a complete idiot?

Theon - I've argued in other threads that Theon's narrative is now solely about redemption, so this thread hits the nail on head. I see Theon going out in one last, epic act of martyrdom to redeem himself in the eyes of the readers.

[ihatebrienne]

Theon will serve Bran! Can't you see it?

[The Red Hand]

I don't hate Theon, and I do feel sorry for him with all his suffering. I believe that he's truly sorry but I'm not sure he has come anywhere near redeeming himself yet. For my money Jaime has gone further down that road, and was actually less awful to begin with.

Well it's hard to redeem yourself when your chained to a wall. And I don't hate Jaime either, but he hasn't expressed the regret that Theon has or gone through the type of punishment Theon has.

[ab aeterno]

Well it's hard to redeem yourself when your chained to a wall. And I don't hate Jaime either, but he hasn't expressed the regret that Theon has or gone through the type of punishment Theon has.

I think Jaime regrets his relationship with Cersei and letting Rhaegar down.

[The Red Hand]

I think Jaime regrets his relationship with Cersei and letting Rhaegar down.

Because she turned out to be a controlling bitch, not because their relationship was treason or because it helped start the war. I just don't think Jaime would be plagued by nightmares if Bran had died.

[ab aeterno]

Because she turned out to be a controlling bitch, not because their relationship was treason or because it helped start the war. I just don't think Jaime would be plagued by nightmares if Bran had died.

Perhaps not, but he doesn't consider that his greatest crime. You can argue, I think, that everything started going badly for him because he did what he believed was right and he was reviled for it. In that sense you could argue that he was better than Ned. Ned would have allowed tens of thousands of people to die rather than break his oath.

[The Red Hand]

Perhaps not, but he doesn't consider that his greatest crime. You can argue, I think, that everything started going badly for him because he did what he believed was right and he was reviled for it. In that sense you could argue that he was better than Ned. Ned would have allowed tens of thousands of people to die rather than break his oath.

I don't think Ned would allow Robert to do what Aerys tried to do, hes proven that he would go against Robert if the matter was important (Lyanna) or if Robert acted without honor (Dany), so I don't think he would go for it. And I'm not faulting Jaime for Aerys (though perhaps killing him was a bit much) I'm faulting him for trying to kill a 7-year and showing little to no guilt over it. Theon was talked into allowing 2 kids to die for his sake and was plagued by nightmares afterward. I'm not saying Theon's crimes aren't severe, but truly feeling guilt and shame over your actions is the first step towards redeeming yourself.

[ab aeterno]

I don't think Ned would allow Robert to do what Aerys tried to do, hes proven that he would go against Robert if the matter was important (Lyanna) or if Robert acted without honor (Dany), so I don't think he would go for it. And I'm not faulting Jaime for Aerys (though perhaps killing him was a bit much) I'm faulting him for trying to kill a 7-year and showing little to no guilt over it. Theon was talked into allowing 2 kids to die for his sake and was plagued by nightmares afterward. I'm not saying Theon's crimes aren't severe, but truly feeling guilt and shame over your actions is the first step towards redeeming yourself.

Ned despises Jaime for killing Aerys. As does Barristan and many others. So either Ned is a hypocrite or he would have let Aerys do it in the same position.

The difference for me is that I think Jaime was set on his path by others- always being forced to be someone that he isn't, doing the right thing and saving thousands and being hated for it, I think he just gave up- after that, he just went through the motions and stopped caring. That was the impression I got anyway.

Theon didn't think he was doing a good thing, he knew he was doing a bad thing. He betrayed the guy who had always treated him like a brother, he killed many of the people in WF for crimes against his pride or even fabricated crimes. He killed the miller's boys in cold blood. Jaime threw Bran from the window in the heat of the moment, it wasn't anywhere near as calculated. Jaime also did it to save his and Cersei and the kids' lives. Theon did it so that he wouldn't be embarrassed.

I'm a big Bran fan but I think what Theon did is worse than what Jaime did.

[The Giver]

But Ned didn't know what Aerys was going to do. Only Jaime knew that Aerys planned on burning King's Landing to the ground. Jaime was hated for breaking his oath, so he never told anyone (except Brienne) about what actually happened.

[ab aeterno]

But Ned didn't know what Aerys was going to do. Only Jaime knew that Aerys planned on burning King's Landing to the ground. Jaime was hated for breaking his oath, so he never told anyone (except Brienne) about what actually happened.

But Ned believes that Aerys deserves to die even without knowing about the wildfire. He never gives Jaime a chance to explain why he killed Aerys, he doesn't ask and he doesn't seem to care. Jaime broke his vow to do what Ned would have done otherwise. That is all that matters to Ned.

[The Red Hand]

But Ned believes that Aerys deserves to die even without knowing about the wildfire. He never gives Jaime a chance to explain why he killed Aerys, he doesn't ask and he doesn't seem to care. Jaime broke his vow to do what Ned would have done otherwise. That is all that matters to Ned.

I'm not saying Theon's crimes aren't worse, just that he was led into doing them by Ramsay and expressed guilt afterwards, and that guilt makes him more redeemable to me. Jaime killing Aerys was unneccesary IMO, confining Rossart and Aerys would have been enough , and afterwards he could have submitted himself to justice. I think thats what Ned would have done had Robert gone insane, but the whole "vow" thing does complicate the issue. Ned was definitely harsh to Jaime though, I won't argue with that.

[aryagonnakill]

I'm not saying Theon's crimes aren't worse, just that he was led into doing them by Ramsay and expressed guilt afterwards, and that guilt makes him more redeemable to me. Jaime killing Aerys was unneccesary IMO, confining Rossart and Aerys would have been enough , and afterwards he could have submitted himself to justice. I think thats what Ned would have done had Robert gone insane, but the whole "vow" thing does complicate the issue. Ned was definitely harsh to Jaime though, I won't argue with that.

Agree, ned was harsh on jamie. Second point, everyone disagrees I know already, Theon did what he did because his own father expressed a hatred of him. Theon just wanted his own father to love him. As someone who lost his father young I sympathize greatly. If Theon had taken Bran and Rickon back to the Iron isles and left Winterfell he would have been an absolute hero.( In the book this means Rodrick wouldn't have died.) Theon was going to kill people no matter what. Raiding the stoney shore people would still have died, in fact with Theon changing his tactic less people MAY have died. We cannot say how many people Dagmer Killed at Torrens Square, but Theon really didn't kill many and most were warriors. I know I know he killed two kids who may have been his own, I can't justify it I can only say that none of us have been in a mid-evil war and that it really wasn't weird of him to do what he did when compared to the standards of the time, and we've had enough POV's of Theon that he doesn't seem to even consider the kids being his. So at least he didn't kill 2 kids thinking that they could have been his.

[kav2001c]

Asha isn't stupid. The reader is not stupid. I'm sure there were others who went "wait, you want to do what Balon?" it just seems a bit ludicrous...

But this makes the iron born appear even more stupid

Many of them (look at Theon old POV or the meeting chapters) don't listen to her simply because she is a girl

The iron born made a plan to attack and loot some castles in the north while armies were away

I think they had no intention of ever trying to hold anything

[kav2001c]

Ned despises Jaime for killing Aerys. As does Barristan and many others. So either Ned is a hypocrite or he would have let Aerys do it in the same position.

The difference for me is that I think Jaime was set on his path by others- always being forced to be someone that he isn't, doing the right thing and saving thousands and being hated for it, I think he just gave up- after that, he just went through the motions and stopped caring. That was the impression I got anyway.

It seems fairly obvious there was bad blood between Lannister and Stark for quite some time before the books

Jamie was very young when he was pushed into his position (they emphasize this frequently) and as such was probably a little bit lost

Loras is the same now

Theon is trying to cling desperatly to power over a harsh people and being egged on by Ramsay