Reek, Reek it rhymes with...redemption.

[ab aeterno]

Theon is trying to cling desperatly to power over a harsh people and being egged on by Ramsay

Yes, be he decides to put himself in that position. Everyone makes mistakes, but whereas Jaime's path was triggered by choosing to do what we might consider the "right" thing whereas Theon did what he did because he wanted power and respect.

[Feron Amathy]

Yes, be he decides to put himself in that position. Everyone makes mistakes, but whereas Jaime's path was triggered by choosing to do what we might consider the "right" thing whereas Theon did what he did because he wanted power and respect.

Bit harsh on Theon. He was trying to reclaim the identity taken from him as a child. Attaining power and respect would have been a part of that, but as the natural consequence of him reclaiming what anyone conditioned to the quasi-medieval nobility worldview would naturally see as their rightful place. Trapped between two different families, with such different identities that it effectively left him trapped between two cultures and worldviews. I wonder if Theon would be so hated if the Ironborn were the House GRRM had spent the first book preconditioning the readership to identify with, and the Starks were the alien strangers.

[Stannis the Wight]

Theon Turncloak will end up being killed regardless. Give his blood to the Heart Tree to awake the stone dragon and the stone kings beneath Winterfell.

[ab aeterno]

Bit harsh on Theon. He was trying to reclaim the identity taken from him as a child. Attaining power and respect would have been a part of that, but as the natural consequence of him reclaiming what anyone conditioned to the quasi-medieval nobility worldview would naturally see as their rightful place. Trapped between two different families, with such different identities that it effectively left him trapped between two cultures and worldviews. I wonder if Theon would be so hated if the Ironborn were the House GRRM had spent the first book preconditioning the readership to identify with, and the Starks were the alien strangers.

Probably less so if the Greyjoys were generally nice and honorable instead of pirates, rapists, assholes and generally stupid people.

[Snowborn]

Probably less so if the Greyjoys were generally nice and honorable instead of pirates, rapists, assholes and generally stupid people.

No, I agree with Feron Amathy. All the Starks are presented in a favorable light throughout all of the books. The Greyjoys are not. If we'd been seeing things through Greyjoy eyes since the beginning, the way we did with the Starks, they'd probably be less hated.

[jon stark I]

Theon did everything to gain respect and trust of his kin his family.But he learned it the hard way that his adopted family was always better then his natural family.In the end he felt regret about everyting he did.He realized Robb and Bran were better brothers then his own.he says something about his brothers beating him or something like that.A redemption arc for Theon would be very likely for any other writer but for GRRM it is impossible.Ironborn are savage they are just like the wildlings but they are worse.Wildlings carry women across the wall but they keep them for ironborn they rape they kill they do that all for pleasure.

[ab aeterno]

No, I agree with Feron Amathy. All the Starks are presented in a favorable light throughout all of the books. The Greyjoys are not. If we'd been seeing things through Greyjoy eyes since the beginning, the way we did with the Starks, they'd probably be less hated.

Depends whether you believe that rape and piracy are wrong. Regardless of how the Starks are presented I have not seen any Stark during ASOIAF having committed a single act that is nearly as bad as those committed by all the Grejoys, possibly excepting Asha. Name me one thing a Stark has done that is worse than what the Greyjoys do? (Preemptively, I don't consider Bran warging Hodor to be as bad as what the Greyjoys do because he is a little boy.)

[Greengrace]

I agree Theon is judged harshly and I use to do the same thing, but then it occured to me he was a hostage no matter he had two dead brothers and a family at home. No one welcomed him all suspected him of treason he wasn't given a chance it was either buckle up or flee to the sea. I think he is going to play a role in the kingsmoot being annulled. When Asha discovers that the one who comes lately came back after his brothers lost the moot and a seaweed crown was worn by another but they stole his birthright for his slot during that kingsmoot and then he ruled for forty years. So the Croweye could at least be disposed of power cuz he has still yet to deliver on any of his promises but reaping. I also think Stannis will die and become an other or something.

[kav2001c]

Probably less so if the Greyjoys were generally nice and honorable instead of pirates, rapists, assholes and generally stupid people.

But this is what the previous poster is pointing out

The Starks are not "good people"; there are numerous honour issues with them (even in first chapter killing the runaways instead of say actually investigating what happened up north, bringing giant dire wolves into peaceful southern cities as a road trip just because some spoiled rich kids like them, Ned willing to sacrifice the realm to Stannis when nobody else wants to support him etc)

Even the Stark relations to Boltons & Umbers should point out they need to be tough as well as Ned's previous military campaigns

One of the authors strongest points is the fact there is no good guy / hero / perfect side in these novels

All are shades of grey

[jon stark I]

But this is what the previous poster is pointing out

The Starks are not "good people"; there are numerous honour issues with them (even in first chapter killing the runaways instead of say actually investigating what happened up north, bringing giant dire wolves into peaceful southern cities as a road trip just because some spoiled rich kids like them, Ned willing to sacrifice the realm to Stannis when nobody else wants to support him etc)

Even the Stark relations to Boltons & Umbers should point out they need to be tough as well as Ned's previous military campaigns

One of the authors strongest points is the fact there is no good guy / hero / perfect side in these novels

All are shades of grey

First of all kiling the deserter was a law and as the warden of the north Ned had to kill him.You judge the situation in modern terms but this isn't a modern story this is a kingdom which has rules.About bringing the dire wolves to south ı have to ask what did those dire wolves do to deserve such a bad reputation they protected Arya and Sansa.There was no incedent happened apart from shaggydog attacking Maester Luwin.And giving the rule to its rightfull owner wan't a sacrifice if he had time to explain that Joff was a bastard of Jaimes everything would work out normally even Tywin would stood by his side if he learned this(because he holds name Lannister dear and he would protect that name if it meant killing his children)

[Where Boars Glow]

I don't Theon is going to die for quite awhile... GRRM puts red herrings in the series at times, but the Asha re-do of the kingsmoot on the basis that Theon wasn't present didn't feel like a red herring; it felt like something that will actually happen. And since she will not be in a position to do that for awhile, Theon can't die for awhile. I actually see him living through the end of the series for whatever reason.

We had a discussion on this in another thread and I totally agree. I think that forshadow of the previous Kingsmoot that was overturned will be Theons eventual destiny. Much will need to happen first. Just how his Uncle Areon was a drunken lout who was then reborn as a godly man with salt and sea....so I think Theons rebirth will lead him back to redemption and eventually winning the support to challenge his Uncle Euron.

[jon stark I]

We had a discussion on this in another thread and I totally agree. I think that forshadow of the previous Kingsmoot that was overturned will be Theons eventual destiny. Much will need to happen first. Just how his Uncle Areon was a drunken lout who was then reborn as a godly man with salt and sea....so I think Theons rebirth will lead him back to redemption and eventually winning the support to challenge his Uncle Euron.

I hope too see Theon as he was but he is too weak and as we know ironborn are like saiyans in dragonball they care about power above everything.But if he restores his sanity back then a few fingers wouldn't be a huge deal for him but as we see he is far gone at this point.

[Where Boars Glow]

I hope too see Theon as he was but he is too weak and as we know ironborn are like saiyans in dragonball they care about power above everything.But if he restores his sanity back then a few fingers wouldn't be a huge deal for him but as we see he is far gone at this point.

You can't already see him clawing his way back from the brink. Especially since it coincides timingwise so well with John Snow Rhylor/Theon Drown God.

[ab aeterno]

But this is what the previous poster is pointing out

The Starks are not "good people";

Many times better than the Greyjoys.

there are numerous honour issues with them (even in first chapter killing the runaways instead of say actually investigating what happened up north,

Following the law. Desertion is a crime, there is no "mythical creatures exemption" or else the entire NW could just run away and not do their duty. He literally abandons their entire cause.

bringing giant dire wolves into peaceful southern cities as a road trip just because some spoiled rich kids like them,

I hope you're kidding because this is beyond weak.

Ned willing to sacrifice the realm to Stannis when nobody else wants to support him etc)

This isn't a democracy, Stannis is the rightful king. The only thing Ned really did wrong was telling Cersei and trusting LF.

One of the authors strongest points is the fact there is no good guy / hero / perfect side in these novels

All are shades of grey

Yes, but the Starks Ned and his descendants so far, are a little off white/ pretty generally good guys. The Greyjoys are a dark grey. In fact, you could make the case that Balon, Euron and Victarion don't actually have any "good" aspects at all.

[The Red Hand]

The Ironborn, up there with wildlings, the mountain clans, and dothraki, are a group of people with such a brutal morality that its hard to judge them as good or bad individually. I don't think Theon, Asha, Aeron, Chella, etc. are bad people per say, their morals are just screwed-up compared to ours. Imagine living in a society that says that you have the divine right to kill any man not strong enought to defend himself, take any woman who catches your fancy, and take slaves when you want. We can say that we would all be like the reader, or we would just not partake but at least some of us would.

[Ser Luke]

Theon was a total badass. That bastard Ramsay must pay.