Did Melisandre/The Lord of Light actually cause Robb, Joff, and Balon to die?

[Arkantos]

Fair enough, obviously my memory has done a rare thing and failed me.

[Jolene Brown]

Fair enough, obviously my memory has done a rare thing and failed me.

Well, you're right I think that they (Stan, Mel, Davos) were the only 3 in the room when the ritual actually happened. It's just that it's clear to me that other people are aware of it afterward based on the stuff I posted above.

[Beeromir]

I believe Melisandre caused the three usurpers to die. Other hands may have blood on them, but IMO Mel's magic is what doomed them.

Just because the plots were going on doesn't mean they would have succeeded. Joffrey could have dropped the cup with the poison or someone else could have drank from it. Robb could have been tipped off at the last minute by one of the Freys. With Balon, who even knows the truth of how he died? I believe he was thrown, which is the simplest and probably therefore most likely to succeed plot, but even then it isn't like Balon was a pushover (no pun intended). He could have put up a fight.

Melisandre's magic guaranteed their deaths. Made every plot go off without a hitch, or possibly, a simple act of nature killing an usurper with the absence of plots to cause their demise. Maybe a gust of wind really did kill Balon.

[Beets]

People have said that Mel saw the future and pretend to control it. If this is the case, Mel still has powers - they just aren't the powers she says she has. She's still formidable.

That being said, Melisandre misinterprets all the time. Knowing the extent of her abilities would make her easier to fight.

[Foxhound]

Balon was killed by a Faceless Man. And if Mel could actually kill with leeches, it raises the question of why she didn't use them before to kill Renly instead of the whole shadow baby idea, and why she doesn't continue killing.

[DaveRoid]

Emphatically, no. Those leeches are the Westeros equivalent of Mel running a late night infomercial advertising the amazingness of her powers. She foresaw those deaths in her fires and performed the leech-burning in order to set up a causation between her actions and the results of the deaths she had predicted as a way of looking more powerful/ in control.

Yeb. And also to show that kings blood had power and could raise a dragon...

[butterbumps!]

People have said that Mel saw the future and pretend to control it. If this is the case, Mel still has powers - they just aren't the powers she says she has. She's still formidable.

That being said, Melisandre misinterprets all the time. Knowing the extent of her abilities would make her easier to fight.

I definitely think she has powers. Just not the power to kill via leech-burning, which I think is about as effective at regicide as sending the cookie monster as a hitman.

[Beeromir]

Balon was killed by a Faceless Man. And if Mel could actually kill with leeches, it raises the question of why she didn't use them before to kill Renly instead of the whole shadow baby idea, and why she doesn't continue killing.

My interpretation as to why she isn't killing anymore using leeches is because, as she said, it isn't strong enough magic. Someone else will just replace the last contender for the throne.

The shadows may have been used because they get the job done sooner. Renly needed to die before the battle. Stannis wanted to spare him and gave him the night to bend the knee to him. The same is true when they were after Robert's bastard, they didn't have time to wait around to get them to surrender him.

There was also a line about the shadow assassins drawing life from Stannis, and making another one might kill him.

I just figured after the last king died, they went to the Wall and she was very interested in the magic there.

Who knows, the answer as to whether the leeches killed the kings will probably remain up to the interpretation of the reader.

[ab aeterno]

I definitely think she has powers. Just not the power to kill via leech-burning, which I think is about as effective at regicide as sending the cookie monster as a hitman.

When you think about it, this would be an utterly unsuspicious death; he would be the perfect assassin. No-one would suspect a blue, borderline illiterate creature obsessed with eating cookies of being an assassin. After his target was dead he would just sit there eating cookies and watching, always watching...

[houseHB]

Coincidence! Robb would have died either way. You can make the case for Joffrey also, you could use the argument that the lord of light made the wind blow to push Balon off the cliff.

[fassreiter]

There's no way the northerners could find out, who was in the room, Stannis, Davos & Mel right? Unless Mel suddently decides to make Stannis look bad [...].

Wait, this could actually make Stannis look bad? What happened to the argument that Stannis was just rightfully executing usurpers/traitors? Why keep it a secret? Stannis could go proud about his day, there is nothing wrong with executing via blood magic and shadowbabies. Or is there? Jon would surely understand, after all it is kneel or be destroyed and stuff... I am sure Stannis just forgot to mention it when they discussed Robb's death.

[Beets]

I definitely think she has powers. Just not the power to kill via leech-burning, which I think is about as effective at regicide as sending the cookie monster as a hitman.

C is for Cookie and Cookie is for MURDER.

Where do you think her powers stop? She's claimed a lot, but hasn't followed through on much except some very sketchy clairvoyance.

[ab aeterno]

Wait, this could actually make Stannis look bad? What happened to the argument that Stannis was just rightfully executing usurpers/traitors? Why keep it a secret? Stannis could go proud about his day, there is nothing wrong with executing via blood magic and shadowbabies. Or is there? Jon would surely understand, after all it is kneel or be destroyed and stuff... I am sure Stannis just forgot to mention it when they discussed Robb's death.

Why do you keep trying to turn every thread into an argument about why you dislike Stannis, or why Stannis fans shouldn't support Stannis, or why people generally shouldn't like or support Stannis? This thread is about whether Mel actually caused Robb, Joffrey and Balon's deaths. Give the Stannis hate a rest.

[butterbumps!]

C is for Cookie and Cookie is for MURDER.

Where do you think her powers stop? She's claimed a lot, but hasn't followed through on much except some very sketchy clairvoyance.

Well, I definitely think that she can shadow-bind, whatever that really means (My interpretation is that sort of similar to the way Others inhabit wights, Shadowbinders concentrate/ consolidate and inhabit/ animate the darkness to do their bidding). I also think she can actually see the future in her fires. I don't think she knows how to interpret them 80% of the time, but she still sees things. She can also successfully produce glamours. I don't doubt her ability to change appearances, hers or others.

Mostly, I question how much control she has over the kind of "Santeria-type" proxy spells to influence outcomes. I don't think she has those kind of powers. As was hinted at above, if it were that simple, she'd have used some leeches on the Boltons, as they stand in the way of her Azor Ahai at the moment. (And in terms of "less magic," I disagree, as she's always commenting about how much stronger her magic has become at the Wall, and in terms of kingsblood, she very easily could have leeched Mance before sending him off).

I think "Santeria-type" curses are not the sort of magic that really happens in ASOAIF, but are part of the collective imagination and misunderstanding of what magic is. I think Mel really plays on the way others around her lack understanding of magic, so she perpetuates some of the more mystical misconceptions in order to seem more necessary and powerful. We see that she does this sort of thing with Jon regarding making a point of telling him that 3 rangers are going to die on that ranging after he'd already sent them out for no other reason than to evidence that she truly can foresee things to build currency with him (and cute that she waited until he sent the rangers out, so that there could no longer be a mistake/ possibility that this vision predicted something other than the rangers' deaths).

[fassreiter]

Why do you keep trying to turn every thread into an argument about why you dislike Stannis, or why Stannis fans shouldn't support Stannis, or why people generally shouldn't like or support Stannis? This thread is about whether Mel actually caused Robb, Joffrey and Balon's deaths. Give the Stannis hate a rest.

I would honestly like to know. Yesterday people spent hours justifying the execution of Renly. I am just curious why today these arguments don't apply to the attempt to kill Robb, Joffrey and Balon. Is it because we like Robb more than Renly? I don't say people shouldn't like Stannis, by the way; I am just at a loss as to why people suddenly attempt to justify things like cruel execution methods, blood magic and kinslaying. All those aspects make Stannis a fascinating character, and I enjoy reading about him exactly because of them.

[Vanilla Fire]

Where do you think her powers stop? She's claimed a lot, but hasn't followed through on much except some very sketchy clairvoyance.

She is most probably ignorant of her limitations. Fire magic has just recently resurfaced as an actual power, coincinding with the rebirth of dragons. This is most apparent in the improvement of Thoros's reanimation abilities. There was also a throw-away line regarding former tricksters who could suddenly do actual magic.

Even if Mellisandre was previously 'top of her class' as a sorcerer that still didn't mean much. Her power comes from a capricious source, which reinforces a superstitious way of thinking. 'Thou shall not test your Lord', or something like that. Therefore, she never assumes more than she can handle, in case her 'understanding of the Lord's will' was wrong.

Therefore she is more of a fanatic, than a con artist, more so because her power has suddenly increased, coinciding with the Azor Ahai prophecy. She is clever in exerting her influence, but I doubt she consciously deceives people.

[ab aeterno]

I would honestly like to know. Yesterday people spent hours justifying the execution of Renly. I am just curious why today these arguments don't apply to the attempt to kill Robb, Joffrey and Balon. Is it because we like Robb more than Renly? I don't say people shouldn't like Stannis, by the way; I am just at a loss as to why people suddenly attempt to justify things like cruel execution methods, blood magic and kinslaying. All those aspects make Stannis a fascinating character, and I enjoy reading about him exactly because of them.

Those are valid questions, but why not make a thread asking exactly that? Otherwise it will just pull this thread off topic. Personally, I'm not sure that Stannis believes that Mel's leech ritual will work and that he is just letting Mel doing her thing because he thinks that it won't achieve anything, but what's the harm in trying. He is, after all, despondent at this point and willing to try anything. Seriously though, start a new thread about those questions. :)

[fassreiter]

Those are valid questions, but why not make a thread asking exactly that? Otherwise it will just pull this thread off topic. Personally, I'm not sure that Stannis believes that Mel's leech ritual will work and that he is just letting Mel doing her thing because he thinks that it won't achieve anything, but what's the harm in trying. He is, after all, despondent at this point and willing to try anything. Seriously though, start a new thread about those questions. :)

No need, I think I won't get any answers that way (by the way, these questions do not only apply to Stannis; last year I had many debates concerning Daenerys burning MMD and crucifying the slavers - usually this would get you into a real shitstorm, but today it's very different on these boards). Actually I don't think Stannis doubted that Mel could kill those kings, he explicitly told Davos that he makes use of her because of her powers. She gave him ample proof of her powers, for example by drinking poison. I am not sure that Melisandre is as powerless as she is made out lately. She made that eagle burn in mid-air, that seems impressive. And the shadowbaby seems like pretty advanced magic. Maybe she is bad with her fire-reading, but I think she could have find a way to kill those kings if she wanted to. Maybe it was just easier to pull that little trick with the leeches. After all she makes it a point to have her magic appear as effortless as possible.

[Jolene Brown]

Those are valid questions, but why not make a thread asking exactly that? Otherwise it will just pull this thread off topic. Personally, I'm not sure that Stannis believes that Mel's leech ritual will work and that he is just letting Mel doing her thing because he thinks that it won't achieve anything, but what's the harm in trying. He is, after all, despondent at this point and willing to try anything. Seriously though, start a new thread about those questions. :)

Davos, the person who knows him best, thinks he is taking it seriously. I think people often ignore the fact that both Davos and Jon felt it necessary to go to extreme measures to protect Edric Storm and Mance's baby from Stannis/Mel. If they hadn't thought he would allow Mel to burn Edric and the baby alive, they wouldn't have smuggled them away (and poor Master Aemon). They truly believe he is willing to do it! And he must take the leech ritual seriously as well, because we can see that he is slowly being won over as each targeted "usurper" dies.

[kissdbyfire]

She is most probably ignorant of her limitations. Fire magic has just recently resurfaced as an actual power, coincinding with the rebirth of dragons. This is most apparent in the improvement of Thoros's reanimation abilities. There was also a throw-away line regarding former tricksters who could suddenly do actual magic.

Even if Mellisandre was previously 'top of her class' as a sorcerer that still didn't mean much. Her power comes from a capricious source, which reinforces a superstitious way of thinking. 'Thou shall not test your Lord', or something like that. Therefore, she never assumes more than she can handle, in case her 'understanding of the Lord's will' was wrong.

Therefore she is more of a fanatic, than a con artist, more so because her power has suddenly increased, coinciding with the Azor Ahai prophecy. She is clever in exerting her influence, but I doubt she consciously deceives people.

Thoros didn't really have any reanimation abilities, bringing Beric back the first time was a fluke. 

“Could you bring back a man without a head?” Arya asked. “Just the once, not six times. Could you?”

“I have no magic, child. Only prayers. That first time, his lordship had a hole right through him and blood in his mouth, I knew there was no hope. So when his poor torn chest stopped moving, I gave him the good god’s own kiss to send him on his way. I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul. The last kiss it is called, and many a time I saw the old priests bestow it on the Lord’s servants as they died. I had given it a time or two myself, as all priests must. But never before had I felt a dead man shudder as the fire filled him, nor seen his eyes come open.

As to Mel, I beg to differ, I think she is deliberately deceitful sometimes. And we know she has her own agenda. Mel's so creepy! :uhoh:

While the boy was gone, Melisandre washed herself and changed her robes. Her sleeves were full of hidden pockets, and she checked them carefully as she did every morning to make certain all her powders were in place. Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke. A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them.

The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.