From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIII

[Valkyrja]

Ah, I do also want to mention one more thing about The Morrigan and Cú Chulainn in relation to Sansa and Sandor.

I mentioned in Part One of my post, that The Morrigan sometimes takes the form of a crow.

In the chapter where Sandor and Arya fight the Tickler & Co at the Inn, right before Sandor calls that final stop that leaves him under the tree, we have this:

"Arya glanced over her shoulder, but there was nothing behind them but a crow flitting from tree to tree. The only sound was the river."

:D

One of my all-time favourite images from mythology (along with Odin hanging himself from Yggdrasil) is that of the dying/dead CuChulainn, having tied himself to the stone (well in this pic it is a tree) to remain upright, with the Morrigan in the form of a crow perching upon his shoulder:

http://fc03.devianta...by_kingmong.jpg

ETA: I love that pic because of reasons. :D

[Queen of Winter]

One of my all-time favourite images from mythology (along with Odin hanging himself from Yggdrasil) is that of the dying/dead CuChulainn, having tied himself to the stone (well in this pic it is a tree) to remain upright, with the Morrigan in the form of a crow perching upon his shoulder:

http://fc03.devianta...by_kingmong.jpg

ETA: I love that pic because of reasons. :D

Yes, Odin and the Tree of Life. :)

And check that picture out! Thank you for sharing that Valkyrja! :thumbsup:

[brashcandy]

Just wanted to say that this is the best topic on this forum! Been reading it for days now and had to congratulate you all. :bowdown:

Welcome! Glad to hear you're enjoying the threads :) Feel free to chime in with thoughts or suggestions!

Ragnorak: would you want me to write about the symbolism of Psyche's tasks? It might help you with interpreting the fleece episode.

absolutely! enjoying this thread immensely. Thanks!

And hello to you as well RAGNAROK :)

Ah, I do also want to mention one more thing about The Morrigan and Cú Chulainn in relation to Sansa and Sandor.

I mentioned in Part One of my post, that The Morrigan sometimes takes the form of a crow.

In the chapter where Sandor and Arya fight the Tickler & Co at the Inn, right before Sandor calls that final stop that leaves him under the tree, we have this:

"Arya glanced over her shoulder, but there was nothing behind them but a crow flitting from tree to tree. The only sound was the river."

:D

Ughhh, that's a great catch! Really can't wait to read what else you've unearthed.

[Queen of Winter]

"Myths, Dogs, Love and Heroes- Part Two"

Warning ...crazy crackpots ahead! :wacko:

The Dog and the Hero

Getting back on track in relation to the topic of "dogs":

Also I found interesting: "....compared to other cultures it is "striking " that Chinese literature rarely has given names for dogs. (Eberhard 2003: 82) This means that in the context of Chinese mythology, often a dog will play an important role, but that it will not be given a proper name, but rather being referred to as "dog".

I think this might refer to "true names" and the power of names, which we did discuss in past incarnations of FPTP.

People always call Sandor "Dog", even Sansa questions him why he lets people do that.

In prior FPTP thread, I also brought up Septon Meribald and his dog, whom he calls "Dog".

You can see the whole post here:

http://asoiaf.wester...20#entry3144324

There was a part in that post, about Septon Meribald talking to Podrick about Dog:

“Oh.” Podrick did not know what to make of a dog named Dog, plainly. The boy chewed on that a while, then said, “I used to have a dog when I was little. I called him Hero.”

“Was he?”

“Was he what?”

“A hero.”

“No. He was a good dog, though. He died.”

This may sound very crackpottish but, in my ponderings I've come across a book called "The Last Hero". It's part of the series of books involving "The Saint" which was written in the 1930's, by Leslie Charteris. I feel I've come across some interesting parallels.

Just some quotes/synopsis of the book here:

"The protagonist is a man called Simon Templar. He is a thief known as The Saint because of his initials and because his heroic exploits fly in the face of an otherwise nefarious reputation. Templar has aliases, often using the initials S.T. such as "Sebastian Tombs. His true name is unknown, and the name "Templar" was adopted at an early age from reading about the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon, the Knights Templar. Blessed with boyish humor, he makes humorous and off-putting remarks ...."

As for "heroic exploits", I'm thinking of when Sandor traveled with Arya, and how he tried to help Sansa in Kings Landing. He didn't have to do those things. Sandor's got a pretty nasty reputation, and I'll bet no one would have expected him to help two highborn girls, and they would probably have trouble believing it. And yes, he does make some pretty funny (at least to me anyway!) and off putting remarks which are peppered throughout the story.

Again, here is someone who is using a moniker, like The Hound. And ironic that it's stated Templar's "true name" isn't known. (There seems to be a lot of talk about "true" things in ASOIAF. "True wine", "True knights",etc").

Given that Sandor is (we assume) on the QI as the Gravedigger, the mention of the Poor Soldiers of Christ made me think of The Poor Fellows of the Faith of the Seven. I think it's safe to say that when Sandor was a child he wanted to be a knight, after all it was Gregor's toy knight that he took, wanting to play with it--that caused him to be burned.

More on "The Saint" book:

"The Last Hero starts ......with an account of Simon Templar, The Saint, foiling an assassination attempt on a visiting prince by tricking the would-be assassin into blowing himself up. This leads to The Saint becoming a cause célèbre , to the point where the government offers him not only a full pardon for past crimes, but also a job as a sanctioned crime-buster. Templar politely refuses, saying he prefers to remain underground, his identity a secret to all but a select few.

Over the next three months, the Saint proceeds to operate so far in the shadows that the general public thinks he has retired or disappeared."

Now, of course Sandor's not going to go around Westeros solving crimes :lol: (nor do I think that people will become enamored of him), but I think he still has a part to play in the upcoming story, and he's going to do something fairly important (perhaps having to do with Sansa). I think it's going to be a totally un-Hound like deed, that is going to make someone offer to pardon him for "past crimes", namely the things Rorge did, while wearing Sandor's Hound helm. And depending on what "heroic" thing he does, could he be offered a position in service? If so, does he take it? Will it be a position like Bonifer has? Or perhaps one in service to another person, in a different form.

The time line to the Saint story above, in relation to Sandor's might be a little off, because I think spending time out of the public eye, screams the Quiet Isle. Sandor will stay there for awhile, then something will cause him to leave--later he'll get the pardon, etc. (Wondering aloud: Will word get out that "The Hound" is dead? Or will Lem keep the helm?)

Back to the book: (this first bit below included just to fill in some background of the story, due to the mentioning of a "girlfriend"):

"Later, during an outing in the countryside girlfriend Patricia Holm, Templar stumbles upon a secret government installation where he and Holm witness the testing of a deadly and mysterious weapon. Templar and Holm are about to leave when they encounter a giant of a man named Rayt Marius, an evil tycoon who wants the weapon for his own purposes.Things become complicated when Marius kidnaps Patricia Holm, setting Templar off into an uncharacteristically murderous rage."

Again, not everything matches up and the timing of the story is off. But I'm thinking the "giant" might be Petyr Baelish (re: the Titan Of Braavos). He's got money, he's one of the wealthiest men in Westeros now and we know he was the "Master of Coin". He's taken Sansa to the Vale against her will (i.e. kidnapped). Granted it's not a weapon he wants, it's Sansa. Does Sandor somehow find out about her being taken to the Vale by Petyr, and fly into a Cú Chulainn type battle frenzy/ ríastrad?

"After rescuing Patricia from the clutches of Marius, Templar realizes that his quest for anonymity is at an end (with Rayt Marius now aware of who he really is) and begins to make plans to leave the country (along with his compatriots if they so choose).

Could it be that Sandor has a hand in rescuing Sansa? Would the rescue cause him to reveal himself? As for leaving Westeros? I don't think that will happen but there is this from ASOS, the Arya chapter where she and Sandor are at the Inn:

"The Hound never flicked an eye at Arya. “If I’d wanted you to know, I’d have told you. Are there ships at Saltpans?”

It was never said exactly where Sandor was looking to go. One time when Arya asked him, his reply was, "Away. That's all you need to know". Where was he looking to go?

When Arya wanted to go to the Wall, Sandor told her they'd never make it. But I do remember from ACOK, after the Battle of the Blackwater when Sandor was in Sansa's room, he told her he was looking to go "Away from the fire" and "North somewhere, anywhere.”

There is also a character in "The Last Hero", Norman, who harbors an "unrequited love" for Patricia Holm. He is killed during the story. This is said of him:

"Norman Kent is in effect "fey", meaning doomed to die - for example, his hopeless but gallant love for Patricia Holm. Norman Kent, rather than Templar, is the true protagonist - certainly in the book's later parts - and he is manifestly "The Last Hero" of the title.

Intriguing. We know the Hound already "died" for/because of Sansa. Could this also herald other things?

Part Three covering caves, Sandor's Trial, and some other "stuff", coming soon..... :stillsick:

EDIT: formatting

[brashcandy]

Great write-up QoW! What I really love about exploring the different mythologies and potential parallels is that it causes us to take a second look at characters and their overall relevance/purpose in the story. Martin may not have drawn from all these sources, but these sources do help to illuminate vital character attributes, and assist in our critical analyses.

I loved the observation that Pod called his dog Hero! Interestingly, when asked whether the dog was a hero, Pod says he wasn't, but he was a good dog nevertheless and died. Sandor played the part of a "reluctant" hero for Sansa. Never wanting to be called "ser" or "knight", he still functions as a good protector when she was in danger. Also, just like Pod's dog has died, the Hound is supposedly dead as well. Perhaps Sandor will be reborn into some kind of true hero by the end of the story.

As for where he might ultimately end up, it could indeed be North somewhere ;)

[Fire Eater]

I found a good article on Sansa from Steve Atwell A few highlights:

A lot of people have pointed out that we’re supposed to find Sansa annoying because Sansa has been raised up to be what a Disney Princess would be in real life – naive to the point of obliviousness, ignorant and incurious, superficial both in the sense of being obsessed about her own appearance and judging others largely on theirs, and (to us) unbelievably passive – and that George R.R Martin is criticizing how gender is presented in fantasy. While it’s absolutely true that the romantic tendency has particular poisonous heritages when it comes to gender and race (and as I’ll discuss later, class as well), I think George R.R Martin is also critiquing the central concepts of the romantic tradition. Consider some of the things that Sansa believes because she has learned them through stories:

• Kings and Queens (and Princes) are inherently good and therefore deserve to be in power, and shouldn’t be questioned. We can see this most clearly in Sansa’s hero-worship of Queen Cersei, where she finds it difficult to conceive of refusing the Queen or even disliking her personally. This diverges quite a bit from her father’s more paternalistic conception of rulership, in which there’s a sense of an implicit social contract where the ruler should know his people and look out for their interest, which Arya is shown as having championed (more on this later).
  
• Beauty = Goodness. Sansa thoroughly believes that appearance and inner nature are one and the same; the good are beautiful and graceful, immorality is seen in the unsightly face of the wicked. Throughout this chapter, we see Sansa using this precept as her guide: it’s a huge part of her problems with her sister (Arya isn’t just plain-faced, but she’s messy and most importantly disorderly, and therefore slightly dangerous), it greatly influences her belief that Sandor Clegane is a “baddie” (just like the dastardly Ser Morgil) and Joffrey must be a gallant knight because he’s handsome, and it’s part of the reason why she reacts to Queen Cersei differently from King Robert (who no longer looks like a king ought).
  
• Good Things Happen to Good People. This comes up most often in Sansa’s fantasies of romantic tableaux of what should happen (a lovely day in the Queen’s wheelhouse, a romantic ride with her Prince) and her anger and confusion when outside forces conspire to ruin things for her. Beyond the obvious naivete of this belief, there’s a subtle conservativism here – unlike Arya, Sansa never really reacts to the fact that Micah is mutilated at the hand of her Prince and later executed by the Hound; rather, her anger comes out when punishment is meted out on the “good dog.” In other words, the consequence of this kind of thinking is that it makes people accepting of suffering and injustice (bad things are happening to Micah, therefore he must be bad, you can tell because he’s a dirty commoner) as well as passive.
  

These are ideas go beyond the problematic. To begin with, they lead to bad consequences, not just by the end of Game of Thrones where her father is murdered and Sansa becomes an abused captive, but almost immediately. Beyond that, I think George R.R Martin is arguing that they convince people to not just accept injustice as inevitable but to see the same act as just, and that they have done so in the past – because they are many of the same romantic ideals that legitimated the feudal order. . .

And at the end of the day, what happens in the very first chapter? The handsome prince turns into a date-rapey, sadistic psychopath and coward; the Good Queen turns into a vindictive, manipulative would-be tyrant; the Good King accepts an injustice in his name; and the knights either stand around or run down the only named peasant we meet this chapter, who dies in the name of royal injustice.

Likewise, the ideal of courtly love was designed to reconcile Marianism within the Church, the problematic role of landed and thus powerful women in a society that treated women as chattel, and the tension between the medieval Church’s impossible ideas about sex and marriage on the one hand, and on the other. The whole thing, which in some ways continues through to the logic behind of “rom coms,” is actually a weird parable about adultery rather than a stable relationship. Courtly love treats a breach in the social order as an acceptable inversion of power relations by filtering the whole thing through the lens of feudalism. The woman, who ensnares a man via attraction and then worship from afar, is declared the man’s liege lord, which is then followed by a ritual rejection. The knight, being rejected, falls literally love-sick to the point of death (a symbolic punishment for his destabilizing, excessive lust), and must then do heroic deeds in order to prove himself to his lady(again, echoing a knight’s service to his liege lord) before he is finally allowed consummation. And consummation occurs, it must be followed by subterfuge discovery, and death, so the natural order is restored. In other words, stories of courtly love allowed vicarious enjoyment of adultery while repeatedly reinforcing that breaking the rules = death; romance requires tragedy to elevate above sin.

[bgona]

I'm particularly fascinated by this idea Milday mentions with the grain task and the ants as representing smallfolk. Looking at the various mythology/ASOIAF threads it seems clear that Martin pulls from mythology but jumbles it. This seems like an ideal candidate. Rather than the smallfolk helping Sansa, I see a herculean task of feeding the smallfolk through Winter. Margaery's love from the smallfolk originates when she arrives in KL and starts handing out food. Red herring or not, this brings to mind Cersei's prophesy in real time as we see it. (Somehow Sansa warging ants just says no. The Once and Future King was enough of that)

I'm coming up empty on the sheep and fleeces (gold? wolf in sheeps clothing lambswool from Snow Winterfell /shrugs?) task. The poison water fits well with the poisoned apple/hairnet discussion after Tze's Sansa/Jon post. I think the idea of symbolic resurrection came up then too which would fit with the fourth task. Remarkable how all these fairy tale elements fit togther and recur-- well if you conveniently ignore that mysterious second task like I'm doing now...

Love the Dog Rose catch too.

Welcome Mahaut wonderful and quite interesting post.

Ragnorak I love the idea of Sansa as a sheep (a wolf disguise as a sheep) between the golden Lannister (that at the end they may be the sheeps). But also it would be nice to find out that Sansa has taken the golden wool (the money of the Lannister, as a Lannister that she is right now).

About the ants as smallfolks and Margaery. I will say that Margaery really doesn´t love smallfolks. She uses them as a shield and weapon against Cersei. Margaery seeks their love because Cersei hadn´t it.

While Sansa really loves them. But I don´t know if she will be able to conquer their love.

I like a lot the idea of Sansa feeding smallfolk at Winter.

Brash I see the golden wool as money. It can be from the Lannister or from LF (sure that he being the master of coins and having whore houses).

The fingers are near by sea at White Harbour, no?

[Queen of Winter]

Great write-up QoW! What I really love about exploring the different mythologies and potential parallels is that it causes us to take a second look at characters and their overall relevance/purpose in the story. Martin may not have drawn from all these sources, but these sources do help to illuminate vital character attributes, and assist in our critical analyses.

I loved the observation that Pod called his dog Hero! Interestingly, when asked whether the dog was a hero, Pod says he wasn't, but he was a good dog nevertheless and died. Sandor played the part of a "reluctant" hero for Sansa. Never wanting to be called "ser" or "knight", he still functions as a good protector when she was in danger. Also, just like Pod's dog has died, the Hound is supposedly dead as well. Perhaps Sandor will be reborn into some kind of true hero by the end of the story.

As for where he might ultimately end up, it could indeed be North somewhere ;)

Well, it's always struck me that Sandor seems like a "Northman" to me, even though he's a Westerman. (He even has the coloring of the Starks--dark hair and grey eyes :rolleyes: ). But it's also something in his demeanor that makes me feel the North would be a good place for him.

Also, the North has no knights, probably due to the fact they follow the Old Gods, and not the Faith of the Seven. It makes me think of Sandor and his refusal to be called "Ser" or thought of in any sort of knightly terms, even when he became part of the Kingsguard.

What Sandor will be like once he comes off the QI remains to be seen, but perhaps in the end, our dog will become a wolf. ;)

3. The Panhu myth again is very interesting. I agree with your options on how this could play out in the text. As it stands, both brothers are "headless" - with Sandor missing the central symbol of his identity as the Hound.

Just to bring something up about the "headless" part. Ned was decapitated too. Sandor lost his Hound helm (a symbolic decapitation). And I'm still drawn back to the part when Sansa mistakes Sandor for her father in AGOT (not to mention the part when Ned tells her he'll find her a man who was worthy of her, "someone brave and gentle and strong."

Also, I know I've mentioned in the past that the men in Sansa's life seem to have leg issues. Ned was wounded in Kings Landing, Willas Tyrell had a bad leg, and now Sandor as well has a leg injury. Interesting too, is that Sandor's grandfather, lost his leg when saving Tytos Lannister from that lioness. As a reward he became the first knight of House Clegane.

[Beets]

Just to bring something up about the "headless" part. Ned was decapitated too. Sandor lost his Hound helm (a symbolic decapitation). And I'm still drawn back to the part when Sansa mistakes Sandor for her father in AGOT (not to mention the part when Ned tells her he'll find her a man who was worthy of her, "someone brave and gentle and strong."

I don't think it's neccessary, in a thread this quick-witted, to bring up the constant descriptions of Sandor doing things "gently" (pulling Sansa to her feet, preventing her from falling in the first place, escorting her to Joff's throneroom of creeptacularness), but I'm going to bring this up anyway.

It's also clear that Sandor's brave and he's ginormous and undoubtedly one of the strongest men we've met in-universe thus far. Hmmm. I'm beginning to think Ned is a closet Sansan shipper.

[ArabellaVidal]

It's also clear that Sandor's brave and he's ginormous and undoubtedly one of the strongest men we've met in-universe thus far. Hmmm. I'm beginning to think Ned is a closet Sansan shipper.

Now I'm getting images of Ned Stark sitting in front of a computer, his walking stick resting against his chair and a mug of coffee near the keyboard, writing Sansan fanfiction.

Fantastic post as ever QoW! You just exceeded your own awesomeness.

Wonderful new points by everyone else as well!

[Milady of York]

Beets, Saryan, Silverin, Arabella, Valkyrja, bgona, Petit oiseau:

From the depths of my heart, I thank you for your compliments on my research. It’s for you, ladies!

Le Cygne,

The links to the TV show are much appreciated; I’ll read it to see what interesting bit I can uncover.

Brashcandy,

Thanks, you as host know how to bring the best in people, just look at what QoW is doing at your request. I too hope that Lea discovers something new in her assignment!

Caro and Mahaut (d’Artois :D)

I knew you were the one who would appreciate it the most, Caro; and you as well, Mahaut. We’ll be a great team when it comes to our joint project.

QoW,

The feeling is mutual. I'm enjoying your most recent post.

[Mahaut]

Thanks for giving me Artois back ;)

I can't wait to start working on our little "songs, knights and courtly love" project ^_^

[Caro99]

QoW:

When Arya wanted to go to the Wall, Sandor told her they'd never make it. But I do remember from ACOK, after the Battle of the Blackwater when Sandor was in Sansa's room, he told her he was looking to go "Away from the fire" and "North somewhere, anywhere.”

Ahh!! Nice catch :D and wonderful post

Brash:

I loved the observation that Pod called his dog Hero! Interestingly, when asked whether the dog was a hero, Pod says he wasn't, but he was a good dog nevertheless and died. Sandor played the part of a "reluctant" hero for Sansa. Never wanting to be called "ser" or "knight", he still functions as a good protector when she was in danger. Also, just like Pod's dog has died, the Hound is supposedly dead as well. Perhaps Sandor will be reborn into some kind of true hero by the end of the story.

As for where he might ultimately end up, it could indeed be North somewhere

I like that observation as well! I can almost see Mya or Randa asking Sansa about that mysterious man she keeps dreaming about or something, and her being like, “He was no her but he was a good man nevertheless.”

I love Sandor ending up living in the North somewhere! More foreshadowing for the future ;)

[Beets]

Now I'm getting images of Ned Stark sitting in front of a computer, his walking stick resting against his chair and a mug of coffee near the keyboard, writing Sansan fanfiction.

The BEST headcanon. :bowdown:

Beets, Saryan, Silverin, Arabella, Valkyrja, bgona, Petit oiseau:

From the depths of my heart, I thank you for your compliments on my research. It’s for you, ladies!

Most beets are gender-neutral, but I am, indeed, a female beet.

How odd.

Your contributions to this thread make things much more interesting, and while I don't post as much as I'd like to because I don't really have many new things to say and the combined genius of the posters makes me feel like a block of Play-Doh, your posts (and those of the other ladies/gentlemen) make this forum the best place to lurk on the entire interwebs. Thank you. :bowdown:

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Milady: chiming in with another "great post!" Too many good posts and not enough time to comment on all of them!

WRT Sandor going up north, his looks - black hair, grey eyes, non-burned features craggy - always seemed First Men to me. A lot of the Stark statues in the crypt seem to be described with the same kind of features. I have to wonder if those looks unconsciously resonate with Sansa and remind her of home and men she could trust.

Re the wounded legs on important men in Sansa's life: Liz Greene ( a Jungian psychologist) has stated that symbolically a wounded leg on a man can in fact be a euphemism for a wound to the genitals. Now leaving aside all discussions of literal impotence (!) note that Ned and Sandor are both impotent (so to speak) to protect Sansa when she is in King's Landing - despite their having much potency and power in other domains. And both men bitterly regret this at the end of their lives - or in Sandor's case, the end of his one life. Hindsight is always 20/20 - and I think the QI will give Sandor a chance to put the past behind him and realize that he has a chance to create a new (and more powerful in a way) life.

[Valkyrja]

WRT Sandor going up north, his looks - black hair, grey eyes, non-burned features craggy - always seemed First Men to me. A lot of the Stark statues in the crypt seem to be described with the same kind of features. I have to wonder if those looks unconsciously resonate with Sansa and remind her of home and men she could trust.

Re the wounded legs on important men in Sansa's life: Liz Greene ( a Jungian psychologist) has stated that symbolically a wounded leg on a man can in fact be a euphemism for a wound to the genitals. Now leaving aside all discussions of literal impotence (!) note that Ned and Sandor are both impotent (so to speak) to protect Sansa when she is in King's Landing - despite their having much potency and power in other domains. And both men bitterly regret this at the end of their lives - or in Sandor's case, the end of his one life. Hindsight is always 20/20 - and I think the QI will give Sandor a chance to put the past behind him and realize that he has a chance to create a new (and more powerful in a way) life.

I love the observation about Sandor looking like he has the blood of the First Men. :)

Re: the Jungian leg wound thing.....

I've previously written about this same topic on this thread, but it has been a while and I can't even begin to remember which incarnation of the thread it would be in, so here is something I wrote elsewhere online the other day, in response to a discussion about Stranger's failure to be gelded and Sandor's leg wound:

Stranger is always a naughty beast, but in this case he was specifically shown to be reacting so vehemently against the attempt to geld him. He wasn't just biting people's ears off willy-nilly or because they tried to pet him (although I wouldn't put it past him. lol). But I think GRRM was so specific here because of the fact that Sandor Clegane has had a horrible leg injury and now has a limp. I think GRRM is telling us that just as they could not take away Stranger's 'manhood' (er, 'stallion-hood'), neither will Sandor have been rendered impotent (either literally or symbolically as a warrior perhaps) by his leg injury. Injury to the leg has been known to symbolize impotence, hence why maybe GRRM need to show the opposite is true. In fact, if Sandor ever leaves the QI he may be in even greater need of his temperamental warhorse -- if his limp does not completely go away, he may now be at his most formidable on horseback instead of on foot. (This is oddly fitting, as what makes a knight raised above just a common foot soldier? The fact that he owns/rides a horse).

[Queen of Winter]

Firstly is it just me or is the board running slowly again? :bang:

@ Arabella & Beets--You both crack me up! :lol: And Caro , it's good to see you posting here. :)

Brashcandy, Thanks, you as host know how to bring the best in people...

I agree with you 100% . Brash is awesome! :thumbsup:

QoW,The feeling is mutual. I'm enjoying your most recent post.

Looking forward to more B&B posts from you gals! :)

@ KRBD-Good observation that both Sandor and Ned were impotent to protect Sansa in KL.

Now some food for thought...

I'd like to once more, mention Ser Bonifer Hasty (also called "Bonifer The Good").

Bonifer had first servedt Renly, then Stannis. He gets captured by King Joffrey during the Battle of the Blackwater. He submits to him and is forgiven by Joffrey, for his past deeds against him. Later in the series he becomes Castellan of Harrenhal and governs the castle in Petyr Baelish's absence. He's supposed to "heal the wounds" left upon the Riverlands by Gregor & Co. His men of the Holy Hundred '"have an excellent reputation for justice, sobriety and discipline."

Here is a quote from AFFC:

“Until such time as Lord Petyr arrives to claim his seat, Ser Bonifer Hasty shall hold Harrenhal in the name of the crown. Those of you who wish may join him, if he’ll have you. The rest will ride with me to Riverrun.”

We know of Ser Bonifer and his love for Rhaella, and this is what Jaime says about him:

"Ser Bonifer himself had been a promising knight in his youth, but something had happened to him, a defeat or a disgrace or a near brush with death, and afterward he had decided that jousting was an empty vanity and put away his lance for good and all."

Kind of sounds like another particular someone we know, eh? (Though I'm hoping that sword isn't put away for good!) ;)

And here's Jaime talking to Ser Bonifer about Harrenhal, which I feel could be very important in relation to some possible foreshadowing.:

Harrenhal must be held, though, and Baelor Butthole here is the man that Cersei chose to hold it.

“This castle has an ill repute,” he warned him, “and one that’s well deserved. It’s said that Harren and his sons still walk the halls by night, afire. Those who look upon them burst into flame.”

“I fear no shade, ser. It is written in The Seven-Pointed Star that spirits, wights, and revenants cannot harm a pious man, so long as he is armored in his faith.”

“Then armor yourself in faith, by all means, but wear a suit of mail and plate as well. Every man who holds this castle seems to come to a bad end. The Mountain, the Goat, even my father...”

First it's interesting enough that Jaime references Baelor the Blessed here (albeit in an off color way), when referring to Bonifer Hasty.

I'm getting ahead of myself again, but this was said of Sandor during his trial with Dondarrion:

“The Lord of Light gave you back your life,” declared Thoros of Myr. “He did not proclaim you Baelor the Blessed come again.”

There is mention of dead men on fire, and of wights and revenants-- things not natural.

Robert Strong is definitely a revenant, which is a corpse that is reanimated to terrorize the living. Ser Bonifer states he fears no shade because he is armoured in his faith, The Faith of the Seven.

We also have the mention of the Mountain , who is now Robert Strong, the Goat- which was Vargo Hoat, (however I have drawn parallels of the Goat to also being Petyr Baelish, who is like a Satyr, and he's now Lord of Harrenhal).

Does this mean that we'll see some kind of showdown happen at Harrenhal? Or perhaps with the people who are associated with it? Could also perhaps tie into Bran's dream about Sansa and Arya "being surrounded by shadows, etc?

Will Sandor have to take on a "Bonifer Hasty" type role, in order to see justice meted out, like I suggested earlier that he might retain aspects of the Father, after his stay on the QI? Will he perhaps gain some of the qualities of the Holy Hundred (who have a reputation for justice, sobriety and discipline)?

Whoever holds Harrenhal comes to a bad end. Petyr is the current Lord of Harrenhal--will he meet his death because of it, and at whose hand will that happen? As we've discussed here before, will Sansa play a role and will she have help in bringing him down?

Ser Bonifer is said to be charged cleaning up the mess Gregor left behind. Robert Strong, who wears the colors of the Faith as well as the Seven Pointed Star. How does he play into this? Perhaps as it's been suggested before, (and relating to Bran's dream again) that it will be Jaime who'll bring down RS, Cersei's champion.

EDIT: formatting *sigh*

[Beets]

Does this mean that we'll see some kind of showdown happen at Harrenhal? Or perhaps with the people who are associated with it? Could also perhaps tie into Bran's dream about Sansa and Arya "being surrounded by shadows, etc?

I like the idea of there being a showdown, and you're right - it ties in perfectly with Bran's dream.

Just as reference:

He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

The Hound-faced shadow-bro is most likely Sandor, which fits with your theory about a showdown, as the other two are most likely Jaime and Gregor. I saw something in an earlier thread about the giant being Petyr due to his (grand?)father's sigil, the Titan of Braavos, but I just don't find that plausible because of the 'darkness and thick black blood' portion of the prophecy.

The Sansa and Arya parts of the prophecy are especially interesting because all the parts are so linked, suggesting to me that these five characters will be in the same place at once. If the showdown that is the whole premise of this post is true, that means that Arya and Sansa will both be present. One possibility I've been entertaining is that Sansa is still in the guise of Alayne, Arya somehow gets back to Westeros, and recognizes her sister. While it's customary for a pronoun to refer to the last stated proper noun (Arya), it's possible with only a minimum of stretching that Arya knows Alayne/Sansa's secret, and is keeping Sansa's identity safe in order to protect her.

Another possibility is that their positions are reversed; Petyr's done whatever he's gonna do involving Harry the Heir or Harry the Red Herring, and Sansa is Sansa once again - but Arya is still whoever the FM have made her, and is hiding from her sister and the world. I like this theory more because it gives a very nice, neat scenario for how the epic showdown will happen.

Most people think Jaime will fight against Gregor in Cersei's initial duely-trialy-bob, and while that's definitely probable, I think there are a few more options that are feasible and fit with the original theory about Harrenhal. Someone (it might have been me, I seriously cannot remember right now) wondered earlier in the thread what Cersei might do once she found out Sansa - the girl she thinks killed her baby Joffy - is still alive and under LF's protection. A few things would need to happen beforehand if my hypothetical version of the epic showdown is going to happen.

Firstly, LF and Sansa end up in Harrenhal. Maybe the Lords of the Vale don't rally to Sansa, the North refuses to take her on account of her being Lady Lannister, and The Lords of the Vale (probably what's left of the Lords Declarant) kick LF out of the Vale, probably because they find out what he's been giving SR (and they like having and excuse to get rid of the treacherous slimy bro). He doesn't want to return to his 'stronghold on the Fingers', so LF grabs Sansa and drags her off with him to Harrenhal. Maybe SR tries to stop LF taking her, or maybe (sad) SR thinks she was in on the murder scheme (she kind of was) and banishes her without making her fly because she was basically his mom for six months and is also really awesome.

There could, of course, be something else that gets Sansa and LF to Harrenhal (that doesn't involve sad SR subplots of sadness), but the end result has to be the both of them getting to Harrenhal, and the North being unable to help (they're super far away to begin with, so they might not be able to get there in time). It could be something as simple as LF wanting to check up on his lands, and taking Sansa with him, as he's pretended to be her father and even after the big reveal will probably act as her protector.

The second prerequisite in order for my theory to actually come to pass would be Cersei winning her initial duely-trialy-bob. Both Gregor and Cersei have to survive the thing. Jaime can't be the person Gregor faces, because if Cersei wins it's implied the loser is dead, and Jaime has to survive if everyone is to be reunited for the epic showdown at Harrenhal. Besides, I think that Jaime would need more motivation to actively fight against Cersei, and my theory gives him that.

Now all the pieces are in place - there just needs to be something to get them moving. A convenient catalyst to get Jaime, Gregor, and Sandor to Harrenhal would be Cersei finding out that Sansa's alive (while the Big Reveal may have already happened at this hypothetical point, none of the LD kicking LF out is really necessary - Sansa still wouldn't be able to get help, as news travels quickly and both SR and any sympathetic Northerners are too far away to help). At this point, Cersei still thinks that Sansa killed Joff, and it makes sense and is in line with her character that she'd demand she be executed. Sansa would probably die if she wasn't in Harrenhal under its lord's protection, and I can see LF demanding a trial because he needs Sansa alive if he's going to continue creeping on her. Jaime, motivated by his vow to Catelyn and the fact that he sent Brienne out to find the very girl who's in danger from Gregor, goes to fight for Sansa as her champion. Sansa would probably be hesitant to accept a Lannister as her champion, but as she probably doesn't have too many ready allies at this point (what with being a presumed murderess, and all her friends being miles away) she'll be forced to accept. As something like this would probably be pretty public, Sandor finds out, appears from the rock he's been hiding under, and ends up in Harrenhal. We've got all the required characters in the suggested place for reasons that seem totally plausible in terms of plot and where the characters are now (as far as I know).

Edited to elaborate on my original idea.

[Queen of Winter]

There could, of course, be something else that gets Sansa and LF to Harrenhal (that doesn't involve sad SR subplots of sadness), but the end result has to be the both of them getting to Harrenhal. It could be something as simple as LF wanting to check up on his lands, and taking Sansa with him, as he's pretended to be her father and even after the big reveal will probably act as her protector.

I think it would have to be something pretty dire for them to actually leave the Vale though. In other threads we've talked about how something might happen to Sweetrobin, his health taking a turn for the worse, and them possibly seeking out the Elder Brother. But Petyr doesn't care about SR, as he disgusts Petyr....

The second prerequisite in order for my theory to actually come to pass would be Cersei winning her initial duely-trialy-bob. Both Gregor and Cersei have to survive the thing. Jaime can't be the person Gregor faces, as if Cersei wins it's implied the loser is dead, and Jaime has to survive if everyone is to be reunited for the epic showdown at Harrenhal. Besides, I think that Jaime would need more motivation to actively fight against Cersei, and my theory give him that.

I think it's been speculated that it might be Lancel Lannister who faces Gregor/Robert in Cersei's initial trial. He's now a Warriors Son, and he'd be perfect cannon fodder for the job! :devil: :devil:

Now all the pieces are in place - there just needs to be something to get them moving. The perfect thing to get Jaime, Gregor, and Sandor to Harrenhal would be Cersei finding out that Sansa's alive. At this point, Cersei still thinks that Sansa killed Joff, and it makes sense and is in line with her character that she'd demand she be executed. Sansa would probably die if she wasn't in Harrenhal under its lord's protection, and I can see LF demanding a trial because he needs Sansa alive if he's going to continue creeping on her. Jaime, motivated by his vow to Catelyn and the fact that he sent Brienne out to find the very girl who's in danger from Gregor, goes to fight for Sansa as her champion. Sansa would probably be hesitant to accept a Lannister as her champion, but as she probably doesn't have too many allies at this point (what with being a presumed murderess and Lady Lannister to boot) she'll be forced to accept. As something like this would probably be pretty public, Sandor finds out, appears from the rock he's been hiding under, and ends up in Harrenhal. We've got all the required characters in the suggested place for reasons that seem totally plausible in terms of plot and where the characters are now (as far as I know).

I agree this could happen, and it does lead into Jaime fighting Cersei's champion (and perhaps defeating him). If that does happen it would also bring the Maggy the Frog prophecy to fruition (the woman who takes everything from Cersei/the Valonqar killing her). Cersei would view Sansa as taking Joff from her, from taking Jaime from her (being Sansa's champion)--probably some of the two most important things to her--her children and her brother. And then there is the Valonqar coming to take her life (I've always thought it was Jaime, since he was born holding onto Cersei's foot)

ETA: The Valonqar thing---you know, I think we might have another play on words within the prophecy. The Valonqar coming to take her life--doesn't have to mean someone killing Cersei--but taking her life (life meaning her life as Queen Regent--her riches--her position,etc) away from her. Maybe she'll get locked up in a Sept or something similar.

[Caro99]

And Caro , it's good to see you posting here. :)

Now some food for thought... I'd like to once more, mention Ser Bonifer Hasty (also called "Bonifer The Good").

Will Sandor have to take on a "Bonifer Hasty" type role, in order to see justice meted out, like I suggested earlier that he might retain aspects of the Father, after his stay on the QI? Will he perhaps gain some of the qualities of the Holy Hundred (who have a reputation for justice, sobriety and discipline)?

Aww thanks QoW!! I'm afraid i've been a lurker of this thread this week because i sadly didn't know about all the intresting and insighful theories and references that have been put up for discusion here lately (though thanks to you all i am a lot wiser now) about CuChulainn and Odin and the Roman Mythology and northern european folktales. So instead of commenting i just read all the good respones everyone makes. Ab

Now, about Ser Bonifer and Rhaella... Oh gods, I can't believe I had not realized that he was the same guy that Jaime left to guard Harrenhal. I remember the chapter were Jaime thinks Ser Bonifer would get along just fine with pious Lancel ruling in Darry, but since Jaime was I think at the time traveling with Adam Marbrand and Strongboar, I just assumed Bonifer was a younger diffrent man.. Hmm!!

As to your question regarding if Sandor will become a new sort of verison of Ser Bonifer,while i do think he may very well do something to "atone" for the crimes that Rorge did in his name, i hope he doesn't become a devoted member of the Faith like Lance!