From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIII

[Lady Lea]

I thought of that and decided against it but in the beginning he was every bit a beast to Dany. That should go on the list too.

I know Tyrion is on a number of people's "dead to me" lists, I just don't think Martin is one them. (personally after Reek and with Joffrey dead I'm open to anyone but Ramsay as redeemable though I'd need steep odds on some)

Yes, in the beginning he was every bit the beast, and I think Dany got him in touch with a more sensitive side of his personality. He was hardly a prince but definitely an improvement...

I still hate Theon so you see once you get on my bad side there's no turning back :D but I know a lot of people still believe in Tyrion. I think it would be interesting for story purposes if Tyrion turned out be an all-out villain in the end though.

(PS.: you guys I just preordered my Hound Funko Pop figure and I'm sooo happy)

[Lyanna Stark]

Welcome Mahaut, and thank you for that amazing post on courtly love! We've touched on it before, but yours was by far the most extensive write up. Would you mind if we linked it in the future to the "Sansa resource section"? I think together with Milady's (and other B&B essays) it would fit very well in there. :)

'Courtly love' is probably a lot closer to Sansa and Sandor's actual relationship, if a deal more romantic. At this point, Sansa and Sandor haven't even had a kiss, Sansa is married, and Sandor is either dead or getting over his issues on the QI. Even when they were together and both single, nothing overtly romantic happened (though, practically every thread has pointed out, there are lots of undertones. The age difference, class gap, and current geographical distance between them means that they're probably never going to get together romantically, but even so, their relationship is not quite platonic. Very interesting post, Mahaut. May I have some more? /Oliver Twist face

One thing, I think, that touches on courtly love is that it is "romance in progress". Nowadays I think we are too used to "they meet, fall in love, have some issues but in the end it's all roses" and we describe something as romantic only if it is realised. Either through being verbalised clearly, or through physical action of some kind.

What we are seeing are the basic building blocks or what can turn into a romance. A proto-romance, if you will. And it's far more interesting than the standard Mills & Boon romance novels since it has that ambiguity. I like the Jaime and Brienne dynamic for the same reason. and also, writing romance in progress is HARD. It's far easier to go the Deus Ex Machine route and by authorical fiat just proclaim "and they found eachother amazingly attractive" or some such, without actually motivating it with character development, plot, or personality.

Hence why I normally find the dynamic between Ivanhoe and Rebecca far more interesting than the mostly non existing dynamic between Rowena and Ivanhoe. The former two have something happening when they meet and interact, while the Rowena crush is just presented as "having always been there", making it ultimately pretty uninteresting.

EDIT: Hah, it just struck me that Littlefinger has a bit if Fitzurse in him. The "wily" politician type. Maybe it's time for an Ivanhoe reread...

[Mahaut]

Thanks for the warm welcome guys. I must confess I'm a bit overwhelmed by all the positive answers I got for my post. Pod pretty much sums up what I had in mind:

A good observation. Somehow I think this is the sort of thing GRRM would know, and then deliberately give us a warped version of.

I believe Loras is a good exemple to illustrate that fact. He's the embodiement of the courtly knight. He's a talented young fighter, he's handsome, he's gallant... However, something is not working. At the Hand's Tourney, he wins against Gregor thanks to a trick which makes Barristan Selmy question his honor as a knight: "There is small honor in tricks". Then we learn through Sansa that his gallantry is an empty thing: he doesn't remember giving her a red rose. Finally, Loras is not exactly into women which completes the destruction of the model of the courtly knight. (Maybe there are are courtly tales that involve two men, but I haven't seen them yet ^_^ )

This reminds of an old French teacher who used to say that litterature is hardly an innovative field. But good writers manage to play with the old clichés and turn them into something new.

Thank you Lyanna Stark, it would be an honor to have it in the resource section :blush: . By the way, I like the Invanhoe digression, I'm more interested into the Bois-Guilbert - Rebecca dynamic myself ^_^ .

[ArabellaVidal]

This reminds of an old French teacher who used to say that litterature is hardly an innovative field. But good writers manage to play with the old clichés and turn them into something new.

Thank you Lyanna Stark, it would be an honor to have it in the resource section :blush: . By the way, I like the Invanohe digression, I'm more interested into the Bois-Guilbert - Rebecca dynamic myself ^_^ .

I mostly agree with your French teacher. Most relationships and even plots can be contextualized in a long-existing framework and that is why they are so instantly recognizable and relatable for the reader.

Like you, Mahaut, I'm also more interested in the Bois-Guilbert/Rebecca dynamic. It has some beauty and the beast overtones that I've always been interested in. It is in fact the starting point of my interest in the anti-hero and virtuous lady dynamic, essentially B&B, ever since Bois-Guilbert died for Rebecca in the duel with Ivanhoe in the old film version.

As for the rose imagery in connection with Sansa, Marillion said something about writing a song for her entitled 'the Roadside Rose'.

And also, when LF gives Sansa an Arbor wine to drink to settle her stomach after they arrive at 'Sheepshit Drearfort', she gives a highly sensual description of the wine on her tongue, "the flavours blossoming in her mouth like flowers opening to the sun." Then she makes an effort not to retch it all out over LF. It seems here that despite the romantic and sensuous explosion of flavours, it's symbolic of her future disgust at LF's attempts to awaken her sexuality. The effort to not puke is again symbolic of her future attempts to mask that disgust from Petyr.

Is it just me or does anyone else feel that Martin uses an immense of amount of symbolism and foreshadowing to tell Sansa's story, even more so than for other characters?

[Lyanna Stark]

Count me in as another one who loved the dynamic between Rebecca and Bois-Guilbert.

Where I live, every New Year's Day they show the 1982 movie featuring Anthony Andrews as Ivanhoe, Olivia Hussey (she is awesome) as Rebecca and a young Sam Neill as Brian de Bois-Guilbert. It's my favourite thing to do to spend that day curled up on the sofa with a blanket watching "Ivanhoe". :)

And also, when LF gives Sansa an Arbor wine to drink to settle her stomach after they arrive at 'Sheepshit Drearfort', she gives a highly sensual description of the wine on her tongue, "the flavours blossoming in her mouth like flowers opening to the sun." Then she makes an effort not to retch it all out over LF. It seems here that despite the romantic and sensuous explosion of flavours, it's symbolic of her future disgust at LF's attempts to awaken her sexuality. The effort to not puke is again symbolic of her future attempts to mask that disgust from Petyr.

Is it just me or does anyone else feel that Martin uses an immense of amount of symbolism and foreshadowing to tell Sansa's story, even more so than for other characters?

There is a LOT of symbolism and foreshadowing in Sansa's arc. Sometimes it seems there are more than for the other characters, but a lot of the other characters' chapters also have their fair share of it. It was really surprising when going through Jon's ADWD chapters for instance that there is still a lot of stuff going on in there too. Tyrion's AGOT chapters are also proving to be a gold mine of stuff. GRRM has said that he does use symbolism in his writing, which makes it so much more interesting to reread and trying to interpret. :)

With regards to the symbolism in Sansa's chapter where she arrives in the Vale, I think Queen of Winter wrote a lot about the mythologial significance of pomegranates vs pears, and other interesting things. What is clear from that chapter is that Sansa seems to be described in more adult, sensual terms, and Littlefinger comes off as a potential seducer and threat. He is trying to draw her in, serving her juicy fruit and Arbor wine to further enhance the imagery.

[Queen of Winter]

And also, when LF gives Sansa an Arbor wine to drink to settle her stomach after they arrive at 'Sheepshit Drearfort', she gives a highly sensual description of the wine on her tongue, "the flavours blossoming in her mouth like flowers opening to the sun." Then she makes an effort not to retch it all out over LF. It seems here that despite the romantic and sensuous explosion of flavours, it's symbolic of her future disgust at LF's attempts to awaken her sexuality. The effort to not puke is again symbolic of her future attempts to mask that disgust from Petyr.

Is it just me or does anyone else feel that Martin uses an immense of amount of symbolism and foreshadowing to tell Sansa's story, even more so than for other characters?

With regards to the symbolism in Sansa's chapter where she arrives in the Vale, I think Queen of Winter wrote a lot about the mythologial significance of pomegranates vs pears, and other interesting things. What is clear from that chapter is that Sansa seems to be described in more adult, sensual terms, and Littlefinger comes off as a potential seducer and threat. He is trying to draw her in, serving her juicy fruit and Arbor wine to further enhance the imagery.

Sorry to be MIA and not commenting much, as I've been trying to finish up some project(s) for the board. :unsure:

I think GRRM uses a huge amount of symbolism in Sansa's story. And I agree with Lyanna, when she states it makes it more fun to read and interpret! :)

Yes, I did write about the fruit in that Sansa chapter. Here are links from the reread if anyone wants to check them out:

http://asoiaf.wester...80#entry3102737

http://asoiaf.wester...40#entry3100287

OT: Arabella--what picture is that in your avatar? That's not a Cranach painting, is it?

EDIT: Sorry guys something happened with the links I put up! Wacky.

EDIT #2: Links should work okay now!

[ArabellaVidal]

Speaking of roses… You know that rose that appears a lot in Medieval heraldry, like the Yorkist white rose, the Lancastrian red rose, the Tudor rose or the one in the House Tyrell sigil? It’s called a Dog Rose :D And it symbolises love AND maidenhood (only this species of rose has the latter symbolism attached to her, the former applies to all roses).

Just for fun: Rose hips of some species, especially the Dog Rose (Rosa canina) and Rugosa Rose (Rosa rugosa), are very rich in vitamin C, among the richest sources of any plant. The hips are eaten by fruit-eating birds such as thrushes and waxwings, which then disperse the seeds in their droppings. Some birds, particularly finches, also eat the seeds. wikipedia

I've been giggling very hard since reading this! Sansa is our fruit-eating bird, sourcing up on vitamin C and then dispersing the seeds... I don't want to go on! :laugh:

[ArabellaVidal]

Yes, I did write about the fruit in that Sansa chapter. Here are links from the reread if anyone wants to check them out:

http://asoiaf.wester...80#entry3102737

http://asoiaf.wester...40#entry3100287

OT: Arabella--what picture is that in your avatar? That's not a Cranach painting, is it?

Thank you very much, I've been going through past threads searching for that and getting sidetracked ALL OF THE TIME since there is some brlliant stuff here.

As for the avatar, I found it through yahoo images when I was bored and searching for a picture of a medieval woman who resembled Sansa. The viol was something which instantly connected this with Sansa and her interest in songs. But now that you've asked, I'll track down the origins.

[Queen of Winter]

Thank you very much, I've been going through past threads searching for that and getting sidetracked ALL OF THE TIME since there is some brlliant stuff here.

You're welcome. :)

As for the avatar, I found it through yahoo images when I was bored and searching for a picture of a medieval woman who resembled Sansa. The viol was something which instantly connected this with Sansa and her interest in songs. But now that you've asked, I'll track down the origins.

I'd be interested in what you turn up on the image. (My first thought was Cranach, but I'm not sure it's one of his--though things about it remind me of his style, to a degree.)

[ArabellaVidal]

The image is from an illuminated manuscript of Boccaccio's Des Cleres et Nobles Femmes which is currently in the Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris. It seems to be the French version of his De mulieribus claris (Of Famous Women). I've been unable to locate the name of the scribe, but the original was written in the 14th century. The book is a collection of biographies of historical and mythical women, the first of it's kind, and has both 'good' and 'bad' figures. I am now very interested in who this particular woman is.

[brashcandy]

Resources 3 - Links to Queen of Winter's mythological posts (to be updated as necessary)

http://asoiaf.wester...40#entry3100287

http://asoiaf.wester...80#entry3101476

http://asoiaf.wester...00#entry3102955

http://asoiaf.wester...20#entry3103774

http://asoiaf.wester...40#entry3105117

http://asoiaf.wester...00#entry3122434

http://asoiaf.wester...20#entry3125686

http://asoiaf.wester...40#entry3126865

http://asoiaf.wester...60#entry3134018

http://asoiaf.wester...80#entry3200856

http://asoiaf.wester...00#entry3201920

http://asoiaf.wester...00#entry3538980

On Cu Chulainn and the Morrigan - Part one

Part 2 - myths, dogs, loves and heroes

[Valkyrja]

Hello all, just curious, as I am a bit confused: are there more B&B 'essays' still before mine (the myth in other ancient cultures, and medieval/Renaissance one perhaps?) or are you waiting for mine (the Northern European folklore one)? If you are waiting for me, I must sheepishly admit that I still need a bit (ok a lot) more time.... :blushing:

[Lady Lea]

Hello all, just curious, as I am a bit confused: are there more B&B 'essays' still before mine (the myth in other ancient cultures, and medieval/Renaissance one perhaps?) or are you waiting for mine (the Northern European folklore one)? If you are waiting for me, I must sheepishly admit that I still need a bit (ok a lot) more time.... :blushing:

I think there's one more from Milady?

Mine is taking a while because I'm right in the middle of my midterms. I'm going mad here.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Sansa can still take out cersei without being a queen. Its obvious cersei didn't fear sansa as much as she does margarey. But the prophecy only says "till their comes another, younger and more beautiful." It never specifically says till their comes another queen. It could just mean another girl. I would love for sansa to become the gentle-hearted but still fierce version of cersei, without the madness. She doesn't need a crown to take her out. Its poetic for sansa to transition from a pawn to a player.

[brashcandy]

Sansa can still take out cersei without being a queen. Its obvious cersei didn't fear sansa as much as she does margarey. But the prophecy only says "till their comes another, younger and more beautiful." It never specifically says till their comes another queen. It could just mean another girl. I would love for sansa to become the gentle-hearted but still fierce version of cersei, without the madness. She doesn't need a crown to take her out. Its poetic for sansa to transition from a pawn to a player.

Welcome LLD! Yes, Kittykatknits has been stressing lately that the prophecy never mentions the woman who takes down Cersei has to be a queen. It's something that tends to get overlooked in most interpretations. I believe it's inevitable that Sansa will have some final "say" in Cersei's demise, even if she isn't the "one." So far she's played an indirect role - confessing the truth to the Tyrells, wearing the hairnet to the Purple wedding - but now that we expect Sansa to fully assume player status in the next 2 or 3 novels, she may have to actively work against Cersei. It's interesting that the two protectors of these women happen to be the Clegane brothers who've both undergone "rebirths."

[brashcandy]

A thought: in keeping with our main beauty and beast theme for this thread, I've noticed that the women whose arcs are paralleled with Sansa's throughout the series seem to have claimed their "beasts" at the end of ADWD. Not surprisingly, the language of this "possession" is fairly erotic and suggestive. Will we seeing a similar scenario play out if/when Sansa meets her beast?

Dany and Drogon:

The lash was still in her hand. She flicked it against Drogon's neck and cried, "Higher!" Her other hand clutched at his scales, her fingers scrabbling for purchase. Drogon's wide black wings beat the air. Dany could feel the heat of him between her thighs. Her heart felt as if it were about to burst. Yes, she thought, yes, now, now, do it, do it, take me, take me, take me. FLY!

Cersei and Robert Strong:

Then Jocelyn was bending over her, wrapping her in a soft clean blanket of green wool to cover her nakedness. A shadow fell across them both, blotting out the sun. The queen felt cold steel slide beneath her, a pair of great armored arms lifting her off the ground, lifting her up into the air as easily as she had lifted Joffrey when he was still a babe. A giant, thought Cersei, dizzy, as he carried her with great strides toward the gatehouse. She had heard that giants could still be found in the godless wild beyond the Wall....

If it please Your Grace, Ser Robert has taken a holy vow of silence," Qyburn said. "He has sworn that he will not speak until all of His Grace's enemies are dead and evil has been driven from the realm."

Yes, thought Cersei Lannister. Oh, yes.

There's an interesting "orgasmic" similarity in Dany's and Cersei's responses.

[Beets]

Welcome Mahaut, and thank you for that amazing post on courtly love! We've touched on it before, but yours was by far the most extensive write up. Would you mind if we linked it in the future to the "Sansa resource section"? I think together with Milady's (and other B&B essays) it would fit very well in there. :)

One thing, I think, that touches on courtly love is that it is "romance in progress". Nowadays I think we are too used to "they meet, fall in love, have some issues but in the end it's all roses" and we describe something as romantic only if it is realised. Either through being verbalised clearly, or through physical action of some kind.

What we are seeing are the basic building blocks or what can turn into a romance. A proto-romance, if you will. And it's far more interesting than the standard Mills & Boon romance novels since it has that ambiguity. I like the Jaime and Brienne dynamic for the same reason. and also, writing romance in progress is HARD. It's far easier to go the Deus Ex Machine route and by authorical fiat just proclaim "and they found eachother amazingly attractive" or some such, without actually motivating it with character development, plot, or personality.

Hence why I normally find the dynamic between Ivanhoe and Rebecca far more interesting than the mostly non existing dynamic between Rowena and Ivanhoe. The former two have something happening when they meet and interact, while the Rowena crush is just presented as "having always been there", making it ultimately pretty uninteresting.

EDIT: Hah, it just struck me that Littlefinger has a bit if Fitzurse in him. The "wily" politician type. Maybe it's time for an Ivanhoe reread...

Yeah, I think you're right.

I prefer romantic arcs starting with some sort of friendship or more platonic relationship as a base, because those relationships are a lot more realistic and ultimately a lot more rewarding IRL, which make them nice to read about. "True love at first sight" has become such a cliche that even the most well-done instances seem contrived.

[ArabellaVidal]

Welcome LLD! Yes, Kittykatknits has been stressing lately that the prophecy never mentions the woman who takes down Cersei has to be a queen. It's something that tends to get overlooked in most interpretations. I believe it's inevitable that Sansa will have some final "say" in Cersei's demise, even if she isn't the "one." So far she's played an indirect role - confessing the truth to the Tyrells, wearing the hairnet to the Purple wedding - but now that we expect Sansa to fully assume player status in the next 2 or 3 novels, she may have to actively work against Cersei. It's interesting that the two protectors of these women happen to be the Clegane brothers who've both undergone "rebirths."

I don't think this is a coincidence.

There are two (at-this-point) crackpot theories that become interesting.

If you factor in that rather intriguing and mulit-layered prophecy by the Ghost of High Hearth of her 'slaying a savage giant', this could be a reference, as some believe, that Sansa will have a role in the final demise of unGregor. Then there are those who believe that the murderous 'valonqar' of Maggy the Frog's prophecy is just a reference to 'the' younger brother rather than 'your' younger brother and might be a reference to Sandor Clegane, Gregor's younger brother and the younger brother in relation to the Elder Brother of the Quiet Isle.

There is also another connection to consider and that is Bran's first vision in which he sees the shades of Cersei's former protecter, a golden (whole) Jaime and Sansa's former protector, an ash dark snarling dog (Sandor) overshadowed rather grimly by a giant in stone armour with an empty visor and thick black blood which after ADWD obviously refers to unGregor. Both 'valonqars', both former protectors, have still to confront the new Gregor, Cersei's present protector.

[ArabellaVidal]

Wow, brashcandy, that's a pretty powerful post. The Dany and Drogo example particularly calls to mind the prophecy of three mounts at the HotU, where they seem to be linked to erotic encounters.

As for the Cersei extract, I find it particularly exciting in light of Bran's vision of Jaime 'armoured like the sun, golden and beautiful'. Cersei's perspective shows unGregor 'blotting out the sun'. Along with the being that Gregor has become, the imagery of the giant in armour connects the two scenes and I think it's safe to assume that Jaime is being supplanted, 'blotted' in Cersei's world. So Cersei's protector and champion will definitely have devastating impact on Sandor and Jaime who will quite possibly be championing the Stark girls sometime in the future as well?

[Silverin]

I don't think this is a coincidence.

There are two (at-this-point) crackpot theories that become interesting.

If you factor in that rather intriguing and mulit-layered prophecy by the Ghost of High Hearth of her 'slaying a savage giant', this could be a reference, as some believe, that Sansa will have a role in the final demise of unGregor. Then there are those who believe that the murderous 'valonqar' of Maggy the Frog's prophecy is just a reference to 'the' younger brother rather than 'your' younger brother and might be a reference to Sandor Clegane, Gregor's younger brother and the younger brother in relation to the Elder Brother of the Quiet Isle.

There is also another connection to consider and that is Bran's first vision in which he sees the shades of Cersei's former protecter, a golden (whole) Jaime and Sansa's former protector, an ash dark snarling dog (Sandor) overshadowed rather grimly by a giant in stone armour with an empty visor and thick black blood which after ADWD obviously refers to unGregor. Both 'valonqars', both former protectors, have still to confront the new Gregor, Cersei's present protector.

That is a good one.

I just want to point out that the Hound was Cersei former protector first as well. Both he and Jaime did decided to rather be Sansa's knnight in a way. Jaime never even met her, though, yet he abbadons everything when Brienne sais she needs him to save her.

Let me just sheepishly wander back to the courtly love theme. Because that interested me a lot.

When it comes to courtly love regarding Sansa, Pod can come into the picture as well. He is a lesser younger knight, who serves her "husband", yet he does have admiration towards her. Not to mention he is on the "Lets rescue Sansa" mission. And I, as one of the few Sansa/Pod shiper will clutch to that. Excuse me myladies for my heretics, I do also love Sandor, and I love their relationship, but I never shipped it romantucally. Though you do have fascinating discussions about the B&B theme, since this theme never interested me that much, I have not that many smart thing to add that to that discussion. I just read it in awe. Maybe the reson for my Pod Sansa bias is that he is one f the few guys in her life who is not a beast (and not related to her).

However I am aware that the Sandor and Sansa relationship has romantic undertones as well.