From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIII

[saryan]

That is awesome Milady!!

I saw the 1946 French movie last week and that line did remind me of Sandor!

This write up is incredible! Out of curiousity, does anyone know how to say "sir" in French (as relates to knights?)

(On an unrelated note, I've also been watching the 1987 TV series and have so far noticed a very young Mayim Bialik and a number of older guys wearing fishermen caps...)

[Silverin]

Why is this thread filled with full of long awesome posts???

I should be studying and writing my I don't even know what!

And I didn'T even have time to read the whole reread threads, neither this one. :( :crying:

Anyway you are great :bowdown:

[brashcandy]

Milady, brilliant as usual :) This makes me especially anxious for the other delights Lady Lea might uncover for us when she does her comparison of Villeneuve and Beaumont. I also agree that Martin has deliberately injected poetic touches into Sandor's speech, making him all the more compelling I think.

[Mahaut]

<snip>

This is pure awesomeness, thank you very much, you made my day! I really enjoyed the part about the coat of arms which is a passage that strikes me as very poetic everytime I read it.

Then it’s clear that he subverted the above quotes to create Sandor’s. As such, we can confidently assert that he was inspired by this tale for the line in question and that our favourite canine plays the role of The Beast with regards to our northern Beauty.

I would like to expend a bit on that quote as it is something that particularly strikes me in the text. From the very beginning, Sandor is often associated with dogs and his description is animalized. As I wrote earlier, people call him The Hound or dog. In Sansa's first chapter, Joffrey puts him on the same level as Lady: "Your wolf is liable to frighten the horses, and my dog seems to frighten you". Maybe a bit of foreshadowing in the Sandor as Lady's replacement theory ;) ?

The animal comparison doesn't stop here though: Sandor is "muscled like a bull". He "snorts", "snarls", "rasps", "roars" and "growls". According to Joffrey, he has "a fierce bark". We have this from Sansa: " He is a dog, just like he says. A half-wild, mean-tempered dog that bites any hand that tried to pet him, and yet will savage any man who tries to hurt his masters". In addition, according to Sansa, Sandor has "eyes glowing like a dog's". She describes him as harsh, rough and raw. And his hands are callused. These terms all come from Sansa's chapters in GoT and CoK.

So I agree with you Milady of York. Based on the text, Sandor is definitely the beastly Beast :D .

[ArabellaVidal]

Milady: I am in awe and giggling at the same time. Am i in giggly awe?! Order, order in the courtroom! Stand up! Milady's passing!

Queen of Winter, ma'am! Really good points! And no, I'm not picturing Sandor with white hair and a beard holding a pair of scales in one hand and a sword in the other! Nope, sirree! And I'm not smiling when I do that! Pinky promise! :kiss:

[Caro99]

Milady, why am i not surprised that you came up with a wonderful post? :P Honestly, the comparisons you stated made my day since (spoiler for S3 of the show)

I've just watched the shooting of Sansa's scenes in the first episode of S3, where LF appears

And needed badly the reminder that just because they parted roads in Clash, it doesn't mean the posibility of them ever seeing each other again won't happen.

About your post, i hope the version of "the beast turning into a good prince" george will give us will be Sandor after his stay at the QI.

Sorry i can't say more but i am in awe of your research

[ArabellaVidal]

The interesting thing about these two examples you cite is the rebirth in the actual scenes. In the Jon/Dany reread we talked about the symbolism in the Shield Hall and how it looked like the inside of a whale (just before his stabbing) and how it fit with a descent into the underworld/rebirth motif. This led to connecting Dany's fighting pit scene with Drogon with similar imagery.

Jaime's dream in the caverns beneath Casterly Rock has birthing imagery to it. There are a number of parallels between this dream and Cersei's walk that ends with Robert Strong picking her up, especially the birth symbolism. Not only have their protectors been reborn but these very scenes are rebirths for Dany and Cersei as well.

I remember from our post-grad poetry classes how everytime a cave or cavern came up we would immediately connect it with the womb. So good interpretation there. I was wondering if we could look at the Hound's encounter with the BWB in a cave in a similar manner? Isn't Rh'llor giving him a second chance? Part of his old identity as the Hound, his oaken shield painted with the Clegane dogs, is burnt to pieces. His left arm burning seems also to be a consequence of the 'holy' aspect of the trial by battle. Since it was presided over by the Lord of Light the 'retribution' for his sins is his shield and arm burning. He then goes on to give a 'confession' of his sins: he admits to killing Mycah and laughing at it, he stood by while the Kingsguard beat Sansa and when Joffrey had Ned Stark killed. His 'penance' is saving Arya from the bloodshed at the Red Wedding.

I also find it extremely interesting that the cave doesn't just have Rh'llor's fire but also weirwood roots. The old gods and the fire god have played a part in his release? And now he's in the healing place of the Seven. Sandor Clegane is by no means finished.

[PetitOiseau]

Just wanted to say that this is the best topic on this forum! Been reading it for days now and had to congratulate you all. :bowdown:

[Queen of Winter]

MoY that was an excellent post! Kudos to you! :thumbsup:

Queen of Winter, ma'am! Really good points! And no, I'm not picturing Sandor with white hair and a beard holding a pair of scales in one hand and a sword in the other! Nope, sirree! And I'm not smiling when I do that! Pinky promise! :kiss:

:laugh: :laugh: ;)

I remember from our post-grad poetry classes how everytime a cave or cavern came up we would immediately connect it with the womb. So good interpretation there. I was wondering if we could look at the Hound's encounter with the BWB in a cave in a similar manner?

Ah, I did a post on caves in one of the reread threads! I don't remember if it's in my myth links that brash posted the other day but here it is if you want to read:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/64491-from-pawn-to-player-rereading-sansa-vi/page__st__240#entry3147722

I do have other thoughts on caves which will be explored in Part 2 (or Part 3-- :stillsick: :lol: :stillsick: ) of the continuation of "Myths, Dogs, Love and Heroes".

[bgona]

“The same, late in autumn—the hues of red, yellow, drab, purple, and light and dark green,

The rich coverlid of the grass.”

First of all: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Second: I also noticed the sentence at the film. It was like a Sandor blow mind!

Third: I like a lot the idea 3 dogs - 3 dragons and Can Cerberus.

Fourth: Definitely Whitman. And I just love that you bring it out. I didn´t know that poem, but something strikes me around all the books. The use of different colors: white, black, red, green, yellow and purple. The colors about the Whitman poem seems as if GRRM is preparing us for the autumn that is entering, for the Winter that is coming. Colors are important at hieraldry but also tells about our mood.

I have realized that the red means danger, white death, green change, purple pain, I don´t know yet other colors meaning as yellow or black.

[bgona]

It's interesting how the Cupid/Psyche myth arc is associated with birds. Venus, too, is associated with birds - specifically doves, which are associated both with Venus and Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Cersei called Sansa "little dove." I see the dove symbology in Sansa's case more with the Mother than with Venus. And Sansa is associated with birds, in general, as we all know.

I love the connection with birds. Also I have remember that birds where the messengers. The messengers are the ones that have the information. Information is the true power (the solution of Vary´s quest to Tyrion). LF and Varys are the ones that plays better with information. Sansa is learning from LF. She is learning also how information can be used.

[bgona]

Lyanna Stark I loved the one with songs that you posted. I should have asked your help!!

Mahaut welcome!! And I love the idea of courtly love. I always have thought that Sandor was having that feelings but I couldn´t demostrate. Now with the post of Saryan I´m sure that GRRM is following the stages!

Milady about the roses: I had forgot that the war of the two roses one was white and another red.

[Quiet Isle]

Ragnorak: would you want me to write about the symbolism of Psyche's tasks? It might help you with interpreting the fleece episode.

absolutely! enjoying this thread immensely. Thanks!

[Quiet Isle]

And we know Sandor found his solace in the Mother :)

Good point. Perhaps we could throw SR in here as well?

I seem to have missed something: HOW do we know Sandor found his solace in "the Mother"? and btw, why hasn't GRRM told us anything about Sandor's Mother? i find that a plot point that may just be very important later.

[Quiet Isle]

I think the Hound meant rape when he made his confession to Arya.

I do not at all agree with that statement. He certainly meant the word rape to shock arya and goad her into killing him. he wanted to die. But he never intended rape sansa at blackwater. he didn't even expect her to return to her room. he went into her room, laid on her bed, because he wanted to experience the closest thing he could to being with her one last time before he left KL for good. Her return to the room was as suprising to him as it was to her. IMHO.

[Valkyrja]

I like your head-canon, Ragnarok. :D

And, to echo everyone else, I just have to chime in and say that your post was brilliant, Milady! It was pretty much everything I only wish I could have written!!! :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Quiet Isle]

Her plot armor's been significant up until now, but so have many of the other characters who've since gone and kicked the bucket... I worry for her.

Fan consensus seems to state that Sandor's off chilling in the Quiet Isle with the guy who gave the whole "Broken Men" monologue. If he is, if/how will he ever come out of hiding? A Gregor battle would be awesome, but up until now I'd say he's had a few opportunities to kill his brother that he hasn't taken. Even if his bro is undead, will he be able to chop the mountain in the face? I'm skeptical.

I'm also curious as to how Cersei will react if LF's nutty HtH scenario actually goes as planned. She's still wanted for regicide, which won't gain her any friends in KL, and I think the Tyrells will probably turn against her at this point. They don't seem like the most steadfast of friends. The North will probably support her, as her claim is better than Arya's as she's older, but only after an annulment of the Lannister marriage, so those lions don't get their hands on the North. Knowing the Church, I get the feeling that they'd support this, as Sansa's good with words and it would mess with Cersei's plans.

My son and i believe this is one way to get Sandor out and about and to "fight" RS. If Ramsay bolton gets hold of Sansa (after all he needs a REAL stark girl) then he may (after trailing brienne to find Sansa) be taken prisoner. Ramsay or his folks turn him over to Harrenhal (where Littlfinger will be, and so will Cersei at that point) champions will be chosen. Cersei will choose RS, and KL may use Sandor. IF Sansa can indeed Warg, she would be the one to ride a dragon (brother and two sisters says the mythology or history) and she would intervene at the last moment and burn RS which would accomplish two things - a) a big thank you shoutout to Sandor for having saved HER so many times. and B) if sandor CAN'T kill anymore (or just can't kill his brother, which has been an issue), then Sansa does it for Sandor - by burning. perfect karma, perfect retribution, and turns the damsel in distress right on its head, with her saving the One True Knight. How is Sansa going to get away from Ramsay? heh heh. Nymeria will run him down with her pack, and Arya will flay him - upside down. that is again mirroring what Ramsay did to women. Karmic Justice.

[Le Cygne]

I am no Ser: The Inspiration Behind the Line

A Beauty and the Beast Mini-Project

...

Lovely! I like when you include the French, too, even though I can only read some.

I was doing some Citadel reading today and saw this, it may be interesting, conversations about the television show GRRM wrote:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Beauty_and_the_Beast/

that goes to here:

http://www.mybatbpage.com/grrm/martin.html

I read all of it, it's in his own words...

[Queen of Winter]

Ah, I do also want to mention one more thing about The Morrigan and Cú Chulainn in relation to Sansa and Sandor.

I mentioned in Part One of my post, that The Morrigan sometimes takes the form of a crow.

In the chapter where Sandor and Arya fight the Tickler & Co at the Inn, right before Sandor calls that final stop that leaves him under the tree, we have this:

"Arya glanced over her shoulder, but there was nothing behind them but a crow flitting from tree to tree. The only sound was the river."

:D

[Ragnorak]

Ragnorak: would you want me to write about the symbolism of Psyche's tasks? It might help you with interpreting the fleece episode.

absolutely! enjoying this thread immensely. Thanks!

I think she was refering to me, but by all means post your thoughts. Welcome aboard.