From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIII

[brashcandy]

And has "Beauty and the Beast" lost its original meaning and effect? I guess that depends on how you view it, but it seems despite being an old tale, some elements remain constant.

Indeed. And I think the tale as old time accords it a special status that resists not only the aging process but explains just why it's been retold throughout time. Some of the particular elements in the story may come off as cliched, but the story itself is subject to constant refreshments, as it isn't simply part of the cultural history, but actually lends itself to the creation of meaning: it's how we understand and interpret certain relationships through this lens.

[Valkyrja]

Indeed. And I think the tale as old time accords it a special status that resists not only the aging process but explains just why it's been retold throughout time. Some of the particular elements in the story may come off as cliched, but the story itself is subject to constant refreshments, as it isn't simply part of the cultural history, but actually lends itself to the creation of meaning: it's how we understand and interpret certain relationships through this lens.

Having applied the Beauty and the Beast motif not only to my understanding of literature, but also to my understanding of my own past relationships, I completely agree. This story, in all its myriad incarnations, will never grow too old, tired, or cliched. Life *is* a song, sweetlings. :)

[Lyanna Stark]

Indeed. And I think the tale as old time accords it a special status that resists not only the aging process but explains just why it's been retold throughout time. Some of the particular elements in the story may come off as cliched, but the story itself is subject to constant refreshments, as it isn't simply part of the cultural history, but actually lends itself to the creation of meaning: it's how we understand and interpret certain relationships through this lens.

:agree:

Overall, it seems romance story arcs often get branded "cliche" for no reason other than they are romance. I just had this argument in the Rhaegar's last words thread where someone claimed that Lyanna's and Rhaegar's love story is cliche, but I really can't see how, since sure, it has some elements of what may be considered classic romance novels. Mostly two themes really: a. a handsome prince and b. romance, but not a huge amount more apart from that.

It seems somehow people view romance_in_itself as somehow inherently cliche. As if the lack of any type of romance is somehow less cliche, when everyone and their dog knows epic fantasy is completely devoid of romance, as a rule. Hence inclusion thereof should not automatically be viewed as cliched. On the contrary, it should be viewed almost as revolutionary. Banning romance as a theme from novels we read seems a bit like banning sunshine, children or food. It's one of the major themes of the human condition, so why specifically exclude it and label it cliche? It makes no sense.

[Valkyrja]

:agree:

Overall, it seems romance story arcs often get branded "cliche" for no reason other than they are romance. I just had this argument in the Rhaegar's last words thread where someone claimed that Lyanna's and Rhaegar's love story is cliche, but I really can't see how, since sure, it has some elements of what may be considered classic romance novels. Mostly two themes really: a. a handsome prince and b. romance, but not a huge amount more apart from that.

It seems somehow people view romance_in_itself as somehow inherently cliche. As if the lack of any type of romance is somehow less cliche, when everyone and their dog knows epic fantasy is completely devoid of romance, as a rule. Hence inclusion thereof should not automatically be viewed as cliched. On the contrary, it should be viewed almost as revolutionary. Banning romance as a theme from novels we read seems a bit like banning sunshine, children or food. It's one of the major themes of the human condition, so why specifically exclude it and label it cliche? It makes no sense.

I agree, this attitude is frankly ridiculous. I can only think that some fans of ASoIaF maybe *fear* romance, and think that its inclusion somehow 'ruins' or encroaches on their 'pure' enjoyment of the material. Harrumph, is all I have to say to that. If this is indeed the case, then I would venture to guess that such folks have never truly read or encountered *GOOD* , quality romance, and therefore balk at the word as they associate it, wrongly, with what they consider to be 'tripe' or, as you say, 'cliche'. :/

[saryan]

One thing that strikes me as well in comparison to the Psyche and Cupid myth is that like Sansa, Psyche is very isolated. In Psyche’s case, it is Venus’ jealousy of her extreme beauty that causes this isolation. Unable to get married, she begins to hate her beauty. Sansa is also beautiful, but in her case her isolation is due to her high birth, which turns her into a pawn once her father dies. So in ASOIAF, we see Sansa start to, in a way, also hate her high birth and the trappings that come with it (she starts to hate knights, and doesn’t want to get married anymore).

(incidentally, the 1981 “Clash of the Titans” was on TV last week and I could not read the story of Venus being jealous of Psyche without seeing Maggie Smith’s giant marble head berating Sian Phillips and her daughter for comparing the mortal’s beauty to hers, but that’s just me :D )

There are also echoes of Orpheus and Eurydice in this myth, with the prohibitions on looking at the lover. I was watching La Belle et La Bete this week and one of the commentaries on the disk discusses some overlaps with this myth as well, with the passage from one world (her father’s home) to the mystical world of the Beast.

[brashcandy]

And beauty and the beast is one of those rare tales that focuses on a romance in development, in fact, on romance as development. And in the myth of Cupid and Psyche, we see challenges actually happening after the couple is married and consummation has occurred, which again corresponds to real life :)

[brashcandy]

I have to admit, in the myth of Cupid and Psyche, the whole not being able to look at her husband gave me unpleasant shades of Tyrion and Sansa.

[Lyanna Stark]

I have to admit, in the myth of Cupid and Psyche, the whole not being able to look at her husband gave me unpleasant shades of Tyrion and Sansa.

I don't know. She is told not to, but in the end her wish to do so takes over. She actually wants to see him. :)

But I see your point with the whole "in the dark, I can be the Knight of Flowers". It certainly has connotations of both.

[Valkyrja]

I think Sansa's storyline is peppered throughout with many different types of 'beasts' in many different forms. Arguments can be made for Ilyn Pane, Joffrey, The Hound, Tyrion, and even LF (though he definitely smacks more of the 'unnatural love' motif of father desiring daughter :ack: ). So, it is not surprising that each of these characters may 'fit' the Cupid and Psyche and B&B tale in different ways. :)

[brashcandy]

The tale also metaphorically suggests a woman's personal transformation towards "wild", "untamed" adult sexuality, a more symbolical than physical transformation. (In "The Tiger's Bride," by Angela Carter, Beauty is transformed into a beast herself at the end, symbolically embracing her own aggressive adult sexuality.)

Martin has managed to communicate this quite well in the San/San relationship with their intimate encounters, her erotic dreams and the unkiss. It seems that although Sansa's story line is filled with all kinds of beasts, Sandor is designed to be "the beast."

[Valkyrja]

Muahaha, I do agree that Sandor is the Beast, whereas the rest are all lesser beasts. ;)

[Lady Lea]

On the one hand, some versions of the tale (particularly the "tarted up French version" by Charles Perrault-- carry some unsavory connotations. That a woman must learn to look past looks, demeanor, and her own desires-- beauty likes the beast but is disgusted, and really desires the handsome, young prince that keeps appearing to her in her dreams-- and only then find true happiness and "transform" her formerly "bestial" (abusive? Cruel? Ugly? Old?) mate. Since the tale was written for well to do young ladies in a time where young girls were basically sold off as teenagers into marriages with often much, much older, more experienced, and not infrequently, very ugly men, Perrault's moral about the importance of a woman looking past appearances, disregarding her innate sexual desire and innate physical disgust, thus made much sense in context.

Beauty and the Beast if often mistakenly credited to Charles Perrault, however, he never wrote any version of it. LB&LB was first published in France in 1740 by Mme de Villeneuve (over 300 pages long!), and then an abridged and revised version was published in 1757 by Mme de Beaumont. De Beaumont's version is the one we "accept" today.

ETA: Just found the original French of Mme de Villeneuve + the audiobook (in beautiful, beautiful French). For those interested: here.

ETA2: Ok, here's the original Beaumont in French and the audio. Here's a somewhat loose English translation.

Ok, so if anyone thinks it could be useful for discussion I can read and compare them and we could talk about the message of each version? Just fyi, the 1946 film that inspired GRRM was based on Beaumont's version.

[brashcandy]

So, I went ahead and created the gmail account, instead of using my sister's :) So for all those interested, you can now reach me at:

[email protected]

xx

[Lyanna Stark]

On a totally unrelated note to what we have been discussing lately, I thought about the theme of songs and singing. It's the theme most connected to Sansa out of all the POVs, but it's something that comes back again and again in many POVs and in many different contexts. I think this is all because in the Tyrion reread, he sang "The Seasons of My Love" well enough for Bronn to recognise the song (and because I may be taking over Tyrion's influence over Sansa from House Draper if she does not come back). Does Tyrion have a singing voice? We know that later on, he stews a singer and he expresses that the last thing his wife [sansa] needs is more songs, yet he shows a penchant for singing and liking songs himself earlier on. We know that Sansa apparently learnt to sing and that she sang fairly well.

A lot of characters who are normally viewed as more realistic or grounded tend to view songs with a bit of disdain, as if they are strongly romanticised versions of reality, or even with little basis in reality. We've also seen songs used in a more "sinister" purpose, both to try and fake what really happened, like when Sansa reacts to that Cersei was described extremely favourably in a song, while she really didn't act anything like that. Then we have the Rains of Castamere, which is a song about a violent destruction of a family, and is often used as an outright threat.

However, at the same time, we are also aware of a lot of things that could be taken out of these fabled songs. Like for instance the Rhaegar and Lyanna story, or the birth of Dany's dragons, for instance. Some of Sansa's own story from her captivity in Kings Landing and forward is stuff worthy of songs, too. Littlefinger claims "Life is not a song", but like most things he says, he may not be fully truthful. (Which is interesting to consider too, did Littlefinger once like songs and singing? His love for Cat certainly seems to be taken straight out of the more fanciful songs. In other words: LF is trying to recreate the song that was "stolen" from him? )

Back to the singing voices though and perhaps voices in general, and that people know/learn to sing. Tyrion is at least good enough that Bronn can recognise the tune. Sansa is apparently at least a decent singer. I don't know if we have any of the POVs having their voices described as far as I remember. The only voices that stand out as well described are Rhaegar's "iron tones", Robert's commander's voice, Daeron's "honey poured over thunder" and of course Sandor's rasping. I believe Varys' voice is said to vary with which "role" he is taking on as well, since he has a rather high pitched almost feminine voice as his "Lord Varys" persona, but a different deeper one when he's posing as the prison guard.

Apparently Rhaegar was also an accomplished singer, although it's interesting to consider what he would have sounded like if Jaime described his voice like iron. My SO and I tried to think of someone who sings with "iron tones" but couldn't really think of anyone good.

Sansa also seems to be far from the only one pre-occupied with songs. We have Brienne who thinks of daring to sing a song to Renly, and apparently Jaime was at least good enough to sing the Maidens in a Pool song at Maidenpool to Brienne. I wonder if Jaime had some training at singing, or if that was a wholly female pursuit, as we are told Sansa and Cersei were taught to sing (and dance and please). Were noblemen also taught some singing perhaps? Most "professional" singer seem to be men, and Rhaegar was certainly good at singing. Sam I believe at least likes music. Unfortunately few voices are described apart from Rhaegar's and he's dead and gone. I wonder if Sandor at some point will get his wish and hear Sansa sing an actual song "gladly" and not under duress (and not in the metaphorical sense either).

As far as I know we only have one description of Sansa's voice was when she thought herself at the night of the Blackwater that her voice sounded weak when she sang the Mother's hymn, but apart from that I don't know if we have a description of it from anyone else, (maybe Tyrion and I forgot?)

Regarding voices and singing voices, it also does make you wonder what Sandor's fascination with songs is. Can he sing himself? His voice is described as "raspy" so often and with his burnt face it makes you think of smoke and ashes. Again I drafted my SO to assist me with some examples here and we both agreed that the closest we could think of would be Stuart Staples of Tindersticks who we agreed sounds like

, and he sounds less "educated" than say Leonard Cohen, with harsher edges.

As of AFFC, Sansa seems pretty disillusioned with singers, songs and singing though. Will we ever hear (or well, read about) her singing? Or are songs something that will remain more metaphorical in her story line from now on?

[brashcandy]

Ok, so if anyone thinks it could be useful for discussion I can read and compare them and we could talk about the message of each version? Just fyi, the 1946 film that inspired GRRM was based on Beaumont's version.

I'd be very interested in this, LL :)

[Ciella]

Hi Everyone!

I'd first like to say that the thoughtful and in-depth posts on this thread have really helped me to re-examine Sansa as a character, so kudos to everyone here! I'm still making my way through the older versions of this thread, that may take a while. If this has been touched on before, sorry about the repeat.

I think Sansa's storyline is peppered throughout with many different types of 'beasts' in many different forms. Arguments can be made for Ilyn Pane, Joffrey, The Hound, Tyrion, and even LF (though he definitely smacks more of the 'unnatural love' motif of father desiring daughter ). So, it is not surprising that each of these characters may 'fit' the Cupid and Psyche and B&B tale in different ways.

I think Martin is subverting Beauty and the Beast with a lot of Sansa's story. There's a lot of dislike of the B&B story in the feminist community because of the idea that a woman can "change" her beast of a man (be he abuser, rapist, or all around bad guy) if she loves and sticks by him, when in reality that's rarely, if ever, true. And we see this happen throughout ASOIAF. Sansa being a good little bird and saying the right things doesn't change Joffrey or The Hound or any other beast she encounters. She even starts to believe some of the abuse hurled at her (that she's stupid and good for nothing) which shows her changing instead. I think this is all in the vein of what GRRM is trying to show us with Sansa, that fairy tales aren't real. Sansa's character deconstructs of classic stories for us and shows us how naive we all are for believing that Knights and good and honorable and that a fair face has a fair spirit behind it.

[Valkyrja]

Hi Everyone!

I'd first like to say that the thoughtful and in-depth posts on this thread have really helped me to re-examine Sansa as a character, so kudos to everyone here! I'm still making my way through the older versions of this thread, that may take a while. If this has been touched on before, sorry about the repeat.

I think Martin is subverting Beauty and the Beast with a lot of Sansa's story. There's a lot of dislike of the B&B story in the feminist community because of the idea that a woman can "change" her beast of a man (be he abuser, rapist, or all around bad guy) if she loves and sticks by him, when in reality that's rarely, if ever, true. And we see this happen throughout ASOIAF. Sansa being a good little bird and saying the right things doesn't change Joffrey or The Hound or any other beast she encounters. She even starts to believe some of the abuse hurled at her (that she's stupid and good for nothing) which shows her changing instead. I think this is all in the vein of what GRRM is trying to show us with Sansa, that fairy tales aren't real. Sansa's character deconstructs of classic stories for us and shows us how naive we all are for believing that Knights and good and honorable and that a fair face has a fair spirit behind it.

Welcome to the thread, Ciella! So glad to hear you've been reading and enjoying it. :)

As for the subversion of the B&B tale, I agree that GRRM subverts many tropes common to fantasy and fairytale throughout ASoIaF. However, I would disagree with the premise that B&B must be seen as essentially anti-feminist, or that it is being/ought to be completely subverted. There are some versions of this tale (which are yet to be explored on this thread, but are forthcoming in the planned discussion) in which the Beast is not an angry or abusive person who must be changed by the woman, but rather the Beast in question 'is who he is', and the focus is rather on the heroine who embarks upon an epic quest to rescue him from a curse that is upon him. The focus of these versions is on her journey, which I personally view as empowering. Others may hold different interpretations of course, but that's just imo. :)

[Queen Cersei I]

Beauty and the Beast if often mistakenly credited to Charles Perrault,

Oh, I know the story didn't orginially spring from Perrault. However, in his version, a few previously discreet messages in the story-- "brute male, changed by the love of a good woman!" and "ladies-- you must look past looks, and get past your disgust for that old/ ugly/ repulsive spouse" become particularly strong and overt. It even arguably becomes part of the text, rather than simply subtext or one of many conflicting messages readers might take away from the story. (At one point, it is noted that Beauty's distaste for the beast has remained, whilst she's fallen in love with the handsome young prince who keeps showing up in her dreams; it is specified that these preferences make her foolish and shallow.)

Really, Perrault's version of this particular story has always struck me as one of the weakest versions I'd ever heard. My favorite part is when Beauty, a Mary Sue of almost epic, unthinkable proportions in this version (She's gorgeous! She's brilliant! Everyone loves her! Except her bitchy sisters, who naturally hate her for her awesomeness!), walks into a room full of musical instruments: "Beauty was overjoyed. She was an superb musician, and played every musical instrument beautifully." I mean, EVERY musical instrument? I challenge either Bella Swan or Harry Potter to compete with that.

Anyway, intriguingly most of the original sources for fairy tales as we know them (Grimm and Perrault) nearly always came from women as their original sources. The Grimm's relied mostly on peasant women to tell them the tales they collected; Perrault also relied on many female sources. Furthermore, Marina Warner has noted that the trend of fairy tales in France at that time was thought to originate with the governesses, who told such stories to their wealthier, better educated charges, who would later commit some of these stories to paper.

[Lady Lea]

<snip>

But where are you finding this version? Perrault died almost 40 years before LB&LB was published for the first time in France, and almost 60 years before the version we know today appeared.

[brashcandy]

Sansa being a good little bird and saying the right things doesn't change Joffrey or The Hound or any other beast she encounters. She even starts to believe some of the abuse hurled at her (that she's stupid and good for nothing) which shows her changing instead. I think this is all in the vein of what GRRM is trying to show us with Sansa, that fairy tales aren't real. Sansa's character deconstructs of classic stories for us and shows us how naive we all are for believing that Knights and good and honorable and that a fair face has a fair spirit behind it.

Welcome Ciella! I actually think Sansa changes Sandor very much - but it's not some magical metamorphosis that happens overnight and certainly not where she's able to "save" him on her own. As for Joffrey, was Sansa ever supposed to have any impact on him? He's depraved and twisted, and I think the important point in that relationship is that Sansa never got to know him before she believed she was in love with him. She fell for the beautiful image, and when the mask was pulled off, he was a monster (it's like the reverse Beauty and Beast). She then has to survive this monster and manages to do so. I would not equate her experiences with Joffrey to the one she has with Sandor.