From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIII

[bgona]

The Beast analogy doesn't have to fit with only certain aspects. It's the idea of it - a beautiful (physically or emotionally) person changing and being changed by their polar opposite. It doesn't even necessarily need to be romantic in order for the theme to apply - a platonic version would work just as well, with all the attributes mixed and matched.

The 'in the dark' comment from Tyrion was piteous and an interesting tie-in. Keep the rough wording, but change the intent entirely... Nice. Nice.

Not, it haven´t to fit physically but it can be psyquical, and more important how the feelings made them behave.

I can see Tyrion more related to Cupid but not with The Beast. The Beast has rage inside, bad manners and, the most important to me, he loves but doesn´t believe to deserve be loved.

While Tyrion seems to believe that he deserves to be loved, but he doesn´t love at the same way that he asks (it is a personal appreciation).

Anyway I don´t believe that it is only important the way they are changed (because the interaction with people change us, even if we have just do an only action). The important thing it is that this interaction that lead to change it is between two polar opposite people.

[Beets]

I can see Tyrion more related to Cupid but not with The Beast. The Beast has rage inside, bad manners and, the most important to me, he loves but doesn´t believe to deserve be loved.

While Tyrion seems to believe that he deserves to be loved, but he doesn´t love at the same way that he asks (it is a personal appreciation).

Anyway I don´t believe that it is only important the way they are changed (because the interaction with people change us, even if we have just do an only action). The important thing it is that this interaction that lead to change it is between two polar opposite people.

Tyrion, I think, has a lot more rage than it may seem, and his manners aren't that great either. He may be more well-spoken than some, but he's by no means polite, and the terrible things he does through the course of the story prove that he's definitely beastly enough. I disagree with you when you say Tyrion does not love. While his love may somewhat have waned of late, it's clear that he loved Jaime very much before their... falling-out. His romantic relationships may be severely twisted, but his familial ones, and the love he can have for people, is, while not unaffected, not destroyed either.

I agree with you completely - Tyrion is not THE Beast - but he has all the required aspects, and even a few that can be completely arbitrary (the physical repulsiveness, for instance). Since pretty much everything we say in this thread is viewed in the context of almighty Sansa, I think you're absolutely right in that Tyrion is probably not THE Beast, because we don't see the kind of development and change between Tyrion and Sansa that we do between Sansa and Sandor. Tyrion isn't Sansa's Beast, but I think he might be the Beast of a different story.

Completely random and off-topic: What with UnGregor, UnCat, UnBeric, and Co. running all over Westeros, it took me a while to figure out that, no, Sansa did not fantasize about being kissed by zombies.

Just wanted to point out how awkward that was. FEEL MY PAIN.

[bgona]

I agree. I must have say love towards Sansa. He can love. Indeed, he loves at his brother. I´m sure that he did love Tysha (and that he doesn´t forgive himself for what it happens). I also believe that he did love Shae. But not Sansa.

It is true Tyrion has rage inside, but I don´t know why I see his rage different to the beast rage. It is a rage that seems quiet at the surface, that you couldn´t see all that it is inside. I fear more this kind of rage because when the doors are open and it flues it is harder to close.

The beast kind of rage I think it is more of the moment. To go blind and see nothing. Also it is a feared rage but once that the person has learn to control that rage, to have barriers it is easier to control.

Ah! One important thing: Welcome!!! (also to Ciella).

[ArabellaVidal]

Eyes open or closed depends on what you're kissing...

I actually missed the unKiss my first read. More accurately when Sansa remembered the kiss I assumed that I had not paid proper attention and had missed it. The entire scene plays out like an impending kiss and her closing her eyes is a big part of that. So much so that instead of thinking "what is she talking about?" and flipping back to check I easily assumed I had simply missed the final moment because I clearly remembered the build up.

Ditto.

[Lyanna Stark]

Eyes open or closed depends on what you're kissing...

On what? Not whom? :D Why Ragnorak, that sounds like she is kissing a thing, not a person!

I actually missed the unKiss my first read. More accurately when Sansa remembered the kiss I assumed that I had not paid proper attention and had missed it. The entire scene plays out like an impending kiss and her closing her eyes is a big part of that. So much so that instead of thinking "what is she talking about?" and flipping back to check I easily assumed I had simply missed the final moment because I clearly remembered the build up.

I had the same reaction, it was not until my second reread that I started thinking "hang on a second...what is going on here?". A lot of readers seem to have the same reaction. From Sansa's perspective, it is described very much as a kiss up the point of actually not being fully realised. It also mirrors the scene in her bedroom as a whole, that it has a general feeling of being unfinished. Things are left hanging. There is no real closure. All the things that might have happened and that people interpret as the main direction of the scene, which depending on the reader and the interpretation can either be a kiss, an elopment, a rape or even a murder; all of these are unrealised though.

[Beets]

I had the same reaction, it was not until my second reread that I started thinking "hang on a second...what is going on here?". A lot of readers seem to have the same reaction. From Sansa's perspective, it is described very much as a kiss up the point of actually not being fully realised. It also mirrors the scene in her bedroom as a whole, that it has a general feeling of being unfinished. Things are left hanging. There is no real closure. All the things that might have happened and that people interpret as the main direction of the scene, which depending on the reader and the interpretation can either be a kiss, an elopment, a rape or even a murder; all of these are unrealised though.

GRRM, give us an emotional resolution with lots of crying, dammit.

I agree. I must have say love towards Sansa. He can love. Indeed, he loves at his brother. I´m sure that he did love Tysha (and that he doesn´t forgive himself for what it happens). I also believe that he did love Shae. But not Sansa.

It is true Tyrion has rage inside, but I don´t know why I see his rage different to the beast rage. It is a rage that seems quiet at the surface, that you couldn´t see all that it is inside. I fear more this kind of rage because when the doors are open and it flues it is harder to close.

The beast kind of rage I think it is more of the moment. To go blind and see nothing. Also it is a feared rage but once that the person has learn to control that rage, to have barriers it is easier to control.

Ah! One important thing: Welcome!!! (also to Ciella).

I'm not sure if that's really what makes the Beast. My main factors would be the self-loathing (believing one does not deserve to be loved because of one's beastliness) and the craving of love (because love makes everyone feel happy and fluffy and covered in rainbows). It's the attaining of what one considered unattainable (because of one's less comely factors, or inner odiousness), and then realizing that it was attainable after all, and that everyone deserves to be loved.

Hey, Ciella!

[ArabellaVidal]

Sorry for butting in, but since the 'like' mechanism is off I just wanted to say what a wonderful thread this is for thinking readers. I love the parallels all of you have found with the various versions of the 'beauty and the beast' narrative in Sansa's storyline. It's especially interesting considering that GRRM wrote a number of episodes in the late 80s for the popular TV series Beauty and the Beast, which was also the time when Webber's musical adaptation of Phantom of the Opera became a huge hit in theatres. I don't remember much of the TV series (all I remember is Vincent travelling on top of a train, was it?) but he doesn't sound a lot like Sandor from what I've googled. My point is that Martin was part of the beauty and the beast narrative revivals in the 80s and 90s. I think he started writing ASOIAF a few years after this so how do you think that influenced his portrayal of Sansa? If this has already been addressed in an earlier thread I apologize and humbly beg directions to it.

[Lyanna Stark]

Arabella,

It hasn't been addressed yet, but I do believe it will be! :) I can't remember who is doing it right now because my memory is like a sieve, but it's definitely on the agenda.

[Valkyrja]

Sorry for butting in, but since the 'like' mechanism is off I just wanted to say what a wonderful thread this is for thinking readers. I love the parallels all of you have found with the various versions of the 'beauty and the beast' narrative in Sansa's storyline. It's especially interesting considering that GRRM wrote a number of episodes in the late 80s for the popular TV series Beauty and the Beast, which was also the time when Webber's musical adaptation of Phantom of the Opera became a huge hit in theatres. I don't remember much of the TV series (all I remember is Vincent travelling on top of a train, was it?) but he doesn't sound a lot like Sandor from what I've googled. My point is that Martin was part of the beauty and the beast narrative revivals in the 80s and 90s. I think he started writing ASOIAF a few years after this so how do you think that influenced his portrayal of Sansa? If this has already been addressed in an earlier thread I apologize and humbly beg directions to it.

Greetings, Arabella! :) Very good catch, and (if you take a look at the outline listed on the front page) you can see that brashcandy and I will indeed be discussing this very series as part of the evolution of GRRM's treatment of the Beauty and the Beast theme (obviously quite a large part). The fact that he started writing the ASoIaF series just a short while after the tv series ended is more than a little interesting as well, as you say. Vincent may not seem very Sandorish at first glance, but I think there are some intriguing, less obvious parallels (and even the contrasts shed light here imo), though I'm going to wait a bit before elaborating. :D

[bgona]

I have to admit, in the myth of Cupid and Psyche, the whole not being able to look at her husband gave me unpleasant shades of Tyrion and Sansa.

Brash not being able to look at her husband is not as Sansa behive with Tyrion. She was unable to look at Sandor but she couldn´t stop looking at Tyrion, even knowing that was against well manners (she was staring at him and not finding nothing good inside him to hold on).

[ArabellaVidal]

Greetings, Arabella! :) Very good catch, and (if you take a look at the outline listed on the front page) you can see that brashcandy and I will indeed be discussing this very series as part of the evolution of GRRM's treatment of the Beauty and the Beast theme (obviously quite a large part). The fact that he started writing the ASoIaF series just a short while after the tv series ended is more than a little interesting as well, as you say. Vincent may not seem very Sandorish at first glance, but I think there are some intriguing, less obvious parallels (and even the contrasts shed light here imo), though I'm going to wait a bit before elaborating. :D

My eyes must have turned to buttons when I went through that outline. Thanks, Valkyrja! I'm looking forward to those papers. Such things put a lot of focus on Martin's apparent disdain of the so-called SanSan ship. I also remember a comment on facebook last month about a 'gay Sandor' character in one of his earlier fantasy works. Hope that is covered here as well. I know, I know, it's a Sansa thread!

[bgona]

Ok: I had time today and I had done what I promised before. Milady here are my impressions.

- The first thing that takes my mind is the double-sex about Eros (as the possibility of being an hermaphrodite). I believe it is also important so we can focus also at the reversal one. Being Psyche the man and Eros the woman.

- The second thing was the ram (of the four animal is the only one that is not represent at the Zeus tale). And I don´t why but my mind went to the judish golden god of Gomorra and Sodome. There could be juddish cities that turned with a greek life style?

- Also I had remember that the followers of Ares are arian. He is the War god (as a good Aries that I am, I tend to like him despite all). And all of this remind me to Arianne Martell and the possibility that she becames a real good fighter.

- The proskynesis: reminds me to the cross signal that the catholics we do. I thougth that was from the roman slavery and circus time, but I see also as a reminiscence of greek gods.

- Venus being jealous at Psyche: brings to me the idea of sexual desire being jealous at mind cause thoughts can controlled it.

And Eros falling in love with Psyque is also the idea of the mind of the other can made us fall in love. We can love how a person thinks and behive.

(Good catch to Cersei and Venus jealousy Ragnorak!!).

- Reading about a golden castle brought also the idea of Lannister.

- 2 attepmpts at suicide had Psyche, but also Sansa (one was the one Joffrey, not really an suicide one, and the other was before when she opened the windows at the tower and not being able to commit it).

- The two sisters had unhappy marriages. They died trying to find sex out of their marriage. Trying to marry Eros. Maybe also can means to brought sex at their marriages.

- White bird carrying the news. That brought the idea of the white crows, bad news also. Meaning the death of a season. The birds where god messenger (iirc).

- Psyche 4 tasks:

The first make the smallfolk at her side (ants).

The second is a proof of her intelligence. She knows that can not confront the sheeps so she looks for another path.

The third is the help of a powerful allied (the god).

The forth is the advice of others and the willingness of her lover to help her.

[Lyanna Stark]

My eyes must have turned to buttons when I went through that outline. Thanks, Valkyrja! I'm looking forward to those papers. Such things put a lot of focus on Martin's apparent disdain of the so-called SanSan ship. I also remember a comment on facebook last month about a 'gay Sandor' character in one of his earlier fantasy works. Hope that is covered here as well. I know, I know, it's a Sansa thread!

Not sure he has shown any disdain for it, more a fascination for people's interest in Sandor's character and in general how much investment fans actually put into the story. ;)

He admitted himself that he's been "playing around with it" in an interview! Which is about as close to a full on confession an any you'd ever get out of him. He's quite careful with dropping any spoilers or anything that will dictate how readers interpret the novels.

Ok: I had time today and I had done what I promised before. Milady here are my impressions.

- The first thing that takes my mind is the double-sex about Eros (as the possibility of being an hermaphrodite). I believe it is also important so we can focus also at the reversal one. Being Psyche the man and Eros the woman.

Jaime and Brienne anyone? :) (Although with them, it's far less clear cut who's the beauty and who's the beast, and they both have traits of well, both things.)

[Valkyrja]

- Reading about a golden castle brought also the idea of Lannister.

NIce observations, bgona! :)

Your mention of the golden castle also made me recall our discussion about Castles and Dreams in relation to Sansa's story (and the more poetic/Sublime moments therein), and how she sees the golden castle in the clouds. :)

[Sword of the Morning Wood]

It is true Tyrion has rage inside, but I don´t know why I see his rage different to the beast rage. It is a rage that seems quiet at the surface, that you couldn´t see all that it is inside. I fear more this kind of rage because when the doors are open and it flues it is harder to close.

"Beast rage" would suggest being more animalistic. The Hound is far more animalistic than Tyrion and is physically dangerous. The fact that Tyrion killed Tywin and Shae in effectively a fit of rage and some of the things he's said he wants to do once he gets back to Westeros suggests to me his rage is at the surface but it's more controllable and directed for him and less obvious to those it's directed at. The Hound's the kind of guy you'd be terrified to be in a cage with if he hates you. Tyrion's the kind of guy you should be terrified if he's not in a cage, if he hates you.

[Queen of Winter]

Excellent posts all around! :cheers:

I'm really missing the "like" button right about now. :crying: (Though I do understand the reason for taking it away).

[Ragnorak]

On what? Not whom? :D Why Ragnorak, that sounds like she is kissing a thing, not a person!

That was more an off topic kissing comment. In considering your question... let's just call it more applicable to Jon than Sansa.

[Elba the Intoner]

Yeah I just have to echo QOW's thoughts here - I wish I could like all the posts on this page so far! Some comments -

Ragnorak and Lyanna - I am another one who didn't notice the unkiss the first time around. I just assumed it had happened and it wasn't until I started lurking on here that I saw the comments that he never kissed and I thought, "what!", went back and looked and saw that nope - he didn't. And I also agree that whole scene has a surreal dreamlike quality that seems unfinished.

Arabella - welcome! I'm glad you raised Phantom of the Opera because I will be touching on that in my part of the posts on Beauty and the Beast influences. I'm reading the book right now and I have the libretto with lyrics from the show.

Bgona - great thoughts on the Cupid and Psyche story. Regarding your comment that Psyche's first task where ants helped her complete it is like the small folk is really interesting. To tie this to my earlier comments about Snow White and Milady's about fairy tales, when I read that I immediately thought of how both Snow White and Cinderella have significant help from the little animals that surround them.

[brashcandy]

Welcome to Arabella and Sword of the Morning Wood :)

And I want to add my appreciation for bgona's comments, and the focus on the help Psyche receives, which Elba just expanded on. We've had thoughts on how Sansa might be able to bring Lothor and Mya over to her side, and perhaps her road to autonomy leads through the Vale smallfolk and not the Vale lords. Also, with the reference to golden sheep, I couldn't help but think of Littlefinger's home on the Fingers ;)

[Milady of York]

- The first thing that takes my mind is the double-sex about Eros (as the possibility of being an hermaphrodite). I believe it is also important so we can focus also at the reversal one. Being Psyche the man and Eros the woman.

This is not canon Greek mythology, though, but a religious symbolism related to the mystery cults of the era. I wouldn't take it into account, this Eros is in no way the Eros of the Apuleius tale (see the part on origins in my paper).

- The second thing was the ram (of the four animal is the only one that is not represent at the Zeus tale). And I don´t why but my mind went to the judish golden god of Gomorra and Sodome. There could be juddish cities that turned with a greek life style?

Again, this symbolism is religious only, unique to Orphism. The reason it isn't in the tale is because it's a different Eros we're talking about. The Greek influence in Jewish culture came later.

- Also I had remember that the followers of Ares are arian. He is the War god (as a good Aries that I am, I tend to like him despite all). And all of this remind me to Arianne Martell and the possibility that she becames a real good fighter.

The followers of Ares were warriors and soldiers for the most part, he was like the westerosi figure of the Warrior. In Rome, he had a cult of his own led by the Salii, the priests of Mars, a cult much favoured by the Patricians, most of whom had to serve in the legions. It has nothing to do with the Horoscope.

- The proskynesis: reminds me to the cross signal that the catholics we do. I thougth that was from the roman slavery and circus time, but I see also as a reminiscence of greek gods.

Proskynesis means prosternation, it was the way Greeks honoured their gods, as I noted repeatedly. It existed centuries before the Roman Empire, and therefore not related to the gladiators' salute in the Circus. This gesture was very special, only for the gods, never to be made before a mortal even if they were kings or claimed divine ancestry, though in Persia it was made before their king, something the Greeks despised. Alexander the Great had trouble with his subjects due to proskynesis for this reason.

- Venus being jealous at Psyche: brings to me the idea of sexual desire being jealous at mind cause thoughts can controlled it.

Interesting, the Fulgentius interpretation of this myth asserts that Venus is the personification of Lust.

And Eros falling in love with Psyque is also the idea of the mind of the other can made us fall in love. We can love how a person thinks and behive.

(Good catch to Cersei and Venus jealousy Ragnorak!!).

- Reading about a golden castle brought also the idea of Lannister.

- 2 attepmpts at suicide had Psyche, but also Sansa (one was the one Joffrey, not really an suicide one, and the other was before when she opened the windows at the tower and not being able to commit it).

- The two sisters had unhappy marriages. They died trying to find sex out of their marriage. Trying to marry Eros. Maybe also can means to brought sex at their marriages.

- White bird carrying the news. That brought the idea of the white crows, bad news also. Meaning the death of a season. The birds where god messenger (iirc).

In this case, it was a seagull, because Venus had her home located deep in the Ocean.

- Psyche 4 tasks:

The first make the smallfolk at her side (ants).

She was crying, for she knew she was unable to complete this task. An ant saw her, asked her why she looked so depressed, she explained the trial at hand and the ant offered to help her. You're correct here.

The second is a proof of her intelligence. She knows that can not confront the sheeps so she looks for another path.

It wasn't she who figured it out on her own, but Pan who told her what to do.

The third is the help of a powerful allied (the god).

Because he was indebted to her husband for a past favour. "An Olympian always pays his debts." :D

The forth is the advice of others and the willingness of her lover to help her.

Yes, she was able to bring out the best in people -and gods as well- and they wished to help her, while Venus wasn't. And here is another parallel between Venus and Cersei: Venus went about things with a high-handed attitude that lost her some allies; for example. while searching for Psyche to punish her for her son's burns, she tried to get Ceres and Juno to help her, but they refused and reminded her of what she'd been like in her youth - so she could see she was being too judgmental and unfair-, so she had to resort to divine privilege to issue a proclamation for her capture. Ceres and Juno also declined to help Psyche, but it was for fear of Cupid's darts.