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From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIII


brashcandy

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Not sure he has shown any disdain for it, more a fascination for people's interest in Sandor's character and in general how much investment fans actually put into the story. ;)

He admitted himself that he's been "playing around with it" in an interview! Which is about as close to a full on confession an any you'd ever get out of him. He's quite careful with dropping any spoilers or anything that will dictate how readers interpret the novels.

Thanks for reminding me of the other interview. I read that part in a transcript. I watched an interview a couple of months back on a fantasy review show where Martin gave a short interview. (I'll dig up a transcript because I forget the entire context.) The gist of part of it was a seemingly shocked and disdainful attitude towards SanSan fandom. I got the impression that he was more concerned for the fact that such shippers take a romantic view of the relationship and the female interviewer suggested that it was perhaps because of the TV show. Then there is the fact that the artist responsible for the SOIAF calender for 2012 wrote in an article on the Sansa and the Hound picture that he hadn't originally planned on making this picture until GRRM had urged him to do so. When I read this I suddenly remembered the interview and wondered if there is some special significance to the beauty and the beast structure that he is either misleading readers about or I'm misreading. But it became something I thought about often (was that the purpose?) particularly when the artist admits that Jean Cocteau's film version had an impact on his final drawing.

Bgona! You're a star!

Elba the Intoner! You have no idea how much I'm anticipating that paper!

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Jajajaja I know Ares had nothing to do with Horoscope only that gaves name to the first one (the lamb) Aries (the word came from the god Ares). Only that. Maybe I shouldn´t have brought out that. But sometimes my mind works on a strange way.

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About the proskynasis: I didn´t mean about the roman circus as gladiators. Just to the idea of the christian pray with their hands togheter due to the chains when they were at the circus.

Anyway Milady you have explained perfectly for both.

Sorry: I had wrote bad jewish.

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Bgona! You're a star!

Jajajaja Thanks! But you will see here the true stars! All people at these threads are real impressives!! They are the stars.

I love what I am now just a new landed knight!!

Welcome!!!!!

--------------------------------

Sword of the Morning Wood (also welcome!). You have made the perfect explanation!

I will not trust neither Tyrion being at a cage!

Elba and Brash: yes, she probably will get the help of the Vale smallfolks (for that it was so important Cersei´s lesson that reassure Sansa to have the love instead the fear).

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Thanks for reminding me of the other interview. I read that part in a transcript. I watched an interview a couple of months back on a fantasy review show where Martin gave a short interview. (I'll dig up a transcript because I forget the entire context.) The gist of part of it was a seemingly shocked and disdainful attitude towards SanSan fandom. I got the impression that he was more concerned for the fact that such shippers take a romantic view of the relationship and the female interviewer suggested that it was perhaps because of the TV show. Then there is the fact that the artist responsible for the SOIAF calender for 2012 wrote in an article on the Sansa and the Hound picture that he hadn't originally planned on making this picture until GRRM had urged him to do so. When I read this I suddenly remembered the interview and wondered if there is some special significance to the beauty and the beast structure that he is either misleading readers about or I'm misreading. But it became something I thought about often (was that the purpose?) particularly when the artist admits that Jean Cocteau's film version had an impact on his final drawing.

Well, yes, there are certainly a lot of indicators that the theme is there, whether or not GRRM has planned to realise it or not.

But then, I wonder if we asked him about Jaime and Brienne whether he'd say that was a romantic relationship or not. My guess is that it would get a similar treatment. This is despite the fact that a large part of the readership views it as romantic (if not realised, and maybe it never will be). There are also so many paralells between Jaime - Brienne and Sansa - Sandor that it should be fairly obvious to the attentive reader that the theme is getting repeated and toyed with in both relationships.

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Well, yes, there are certainly a lot of indicators that the theme is there, whether or not GRRM has planned to realise it or not.

But then, I wonder if we asked him about Jaime and Brienne whether he'd say that was a romantic relationship or not. My guess is that it would get a similar treatment. This is despite the fact that a large part of the readership views it as romantic (if not realised, and maybe it never will be). There are also so many paralells between Jaime - Brienne and Sansa - Sandor that it should be fairly obvious to the attentive reader that the theme is getting repeated and toyed with in both relationships.

Couldn't have put it better! Thanks. Dang, I miss the like button!

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It's interesting how the Cupid/Psyche myth arc is associated with birds. Venus, too, is associated with birds - specifically doves, which are associated both with Venus and Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Cersei called Sansa "little dove." I see the dove symbology in Sansa's case more with the Mother than with Venus. And Sansa is associated with birds, in general, as we all know.

Something else that may or may not have been intended by GRRM, and may or may not be coincidence, is that canon Sansa as described looks a lot like Botticelli's Venus in the famous Birth of Venus painting. (Sansa on the whole could be a Botticelli model.)

As for whether or not GRRM intended Sansa/Sandor: People are going to read themes into fictional works. GOT (the book) was published before the Internet and discussion boards became a worldwide phenomenon. So while his readers could interpret as they wished, there wasn't any large-scale platform for mass discussion and theorizing. Fast forward to AFFC and ADWD and boom! There is Livejournal, Tumblr, westeros.org, et cetera and so on. It's not just GRRM, it's Harry Potter, The Hunger Games, Dr. Who, on and on. While academics and book clubs always discussed, analyzed and critiqued, now books (and TV shows, movies, and other media) are public property for analysis and discussion as never before. Put in a clue or red herring and people are going to pounce. There is no way to put something in a book and not have it analyzed (see: R+L = J, is Aegon real, etc.).

Of course, people saw all kinds of evidence for Harry/Hermione in the Harry Potter series and it did not end up that way, BUT, the point is that they saw it in the text and the Internet gave them a platform to discuss it. Just as this website gives us a platform to re-read and re-think Sansa and other characters that we like.

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Arabella,

The interview there is the one where he is surprised at fans' interest, but admits that he's "toyed" with the theme. :)

The "denial" of SanSan as having a unrealised and romantically tinged relationship is odd to me, since that means, to me, it's necessary to also deny that Jaime and Brienne has a similar relationship. Unrealised, but still with a romantic undercurrent that seems to be growing stronger. In Jaime's and Brienne's case, perhaps it's because we have both POVs and it makes it easier to follow the development. However, there are enough paralells that it's almost staggering.

I wrote some short lists on it here and maybe expecially here. And those are just really the barebones of it, they do not contain any real indepth analysis of how both of them are toying with the Beauty and the Beast theme as such.

It could be interesting to further develop the paralells between these two relationships who both share the B&B themes once the B&B project is completed. It's almost a natural follow up, in a way. :)

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Really quickly, because I am running out the door, but I just wanted to say wrt to whether or not GRRM will 'see it through' in terms of fully realizing the B&B theme in Sansa's storyline: to me, it doesn't matter if the Sansa/Sandor element is fully realized or not, it exists, and GRRM has admitted to its existence (in as many words as he will ever, no doubt). What am interested in moreso is looking at the evolution of his treatment of the B&B theme (even, perhaps, if this is something he himself may not be aware of, though I suspect it is), and how he has used previous traditions, and twisted the motifs in his own ah, interesting ;) ways. I think it is valuable to find the parallels (and contradictions) in Sansa's arc to this ancient tale, in all its various forms. I want to display to all that when we say that ASoIaF contains the B&B theme, that this cannot be used dismissively or be accused of being 'cliche', but rather will be shown to be the deep and nuanced story that it is and a great enhancement to GRRM's work. :)

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Arabella,

The interview there is the one where he is surprised at fans' interest, but admits that he's "toyed" with the theme. :)

The "denial" of SanSan as having a unrealised and romantically tinged relationship is odd to me, since that means, to me, it's necessary to also deny that Jaime and Brienne has a similar relationship. Unrealised, but still with a romantic undercurrent that seems to be growing stronger. In Jaime's and Brienne's case, perhaps it's because we have both POVs and it makes it easier to follow the development. However, there are enough paralells that it's almost staggering.

I wrote some short lists on it here and maybe expecially here. And those are just really the barebones of it, they do not contain any real indepth analysis of how both of them are toying with the Beauty and the Beast theme as such.

It could be interesting to further develop the paralells between these two relationships who both share the B&B themes once the B&B project is completed. It's almost a natural follow up, in a way. :)

Thanks very much! I am now officially addicted to this thread! :cool4:
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I think it is valuable to find the parallels (and contradictions) in Sansa's arc to this ancient tale, in all its various forms. I want to display to all that when we say that ASoIaF contains the B&B theme, that this cannot be used dismissively or be accused of being 'cliche', but rather will be shown to be the deep and nuanced story that it is and a great enhancement to GRRM's work. :)

Indeed. I think as we go through this project, it'll be useful to keep in mind not only the nature of Beauty and the Beast as characters, but also theorise on what we're learning about the qualities of "beauty" and "beastliness." One of the reasons for the cliched accusations is because of the simplification of these themes I suspect, setting them up as binary oppositions, without seeing how they mesh and mutate. Short answer: it's a lot more complicated than an ugly man getting a beautiful woman, or a beautiful woman learning to love an ugly man. So far in the Cupid/Psyche/Venus tale, we've seen that the fear of the beast/the unknown can often be more frightening than the thing itself, and it's the beautiful ones who can sometimes pose the most danger.

Thanks very much! I am now officially addicted to this thread! :cool4:

That's good to hear :)

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Hi guys, I’ve been lurking around for a while now (the amount of time I spent going through the Pawn to Player threads last spring instead of revising my exams is actually indecent :rolleyes: ) but I couldn’t bring myself to join you. I didn’t feel brilliant enough. This morning though, I was at university taking a course on medieval French litterature, when the teacher started to talk about courtly love/fin’ amor. A few things struck me and I felt like I HAD to write about them. So please, forgive me for derailing your great discussion on Beauty and the Beast (which I enjoy a lot) and for any grammar/syntaxe/vocabulary mistake because English is not my native language.

I know this topic has been dealt with in these threads with regard to Sansa, Sandor and the Hand’s Tourney. I don’t want to write about foreshadowing though. But, as I said earlier, a few facts about courtly love/fin’amor struck me and it gave me the idea to look for elements of courtly love/fin’ amor in their curious relationship. What follows is based on the notes I took this morning.

Courtly love/fin‘amor involves a love relationship between a man/knight and a woman of higher social rank. Usually, she’s married to the knight’s lord and is thus inaccessible. Their love is supposed to grow but remain unfulfilled (there’s a controversy here among scholars whether the relationship is physically consumed or not). Anyway, the knight is supposed to go through various trials to prove is worth as a courtly lover. The ultimate trial is called assag (try in Occitan) and consists of the two lovers lying naked in the same bed. If the knight surrenders to his passion, it means he doesn’t love his lady of fin’ amor i.e. he’s not worthy of her. Note that fin’amor considers that the longing for the beloved is as pleasant as the physical act of love.

It is possible to see a few similarities here with Sansa’s storyline. By birth, she’s of higher social rank than Sandor whose family has just recently been knighted (I’m not sure it’s the right word in English: what I mean is that the Clegane received lands). This creates a social barrier between the two of them. In addition, Sansa is betrothed to Joffrey whom Sandor is sworn to protect. Later on, she’s married to Tyrion which makes her even more inaccesible to Sandor. Then, there’s a moral (and maybe physical?) barrier that Sandor seems to add himself on the Serpentine steps: Sansa looks “almost a woman”. She’s not yet a woman and therefore she’s not ready for that type of relationship. It is also possible to see the Hand’s tourney and the rescuing during the riot as some of the trials the knight has to face to prove his worth. Finally, the night of the Blackwater Battle can be considered as a “successful assag” as they’re both lying in bed but their relationship remains unfulfilled. Well, I’m wondering what the scholars would say of a “non-knight” threatening to kill his lady… I’m not sure they’d call the assag successful.

However, what really struck this morning and gave me the idea of looking for courtly love elements is what follows. There are different steps in courtly love and the first stage happens through “look” as the lady is supposed to declare her love by looking at her knight. Does that ring a bell? “Look at me!” How many times did we all read that? I can’t remember if someone has already discussed the fact that Sandor asks to be looked at. I think it could be interesting to work on that. One of the later stages involves a kiss. Well, in our present case, it is an unkiss… but you see what I mean ^_^.

And here is a last little addition. In the Middle Ages, courtly love stories were found in canzo which is the Occitan word for song. And we all know how the theme of songs is important to Sansa.

In short, there are some elements of courtly love in their story but they are somehow distorted. For instance, Sandor has nothing of a courtly knight and he doesn’t put Sansa on a pedestal like a good courtly lover does. There are other examples but I’ll keep it short. I just think it would be interesting to read their relationship as a twisted tale of courtly love as well as a retelling of the Beauty and the Beast. I hope you enjoy reading me :blush:

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It's interesting how the Cupid/Psyche myth arc is associated with birds. Venus, too, is associated with birds - specifically doves, which are associated both with Venus and Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Cersei called Sansa "little dove." I see the dove symbology in Sansa's case more with the Mother than with Venus. And Sansa is associated with birds, in general, as we all know.

Something else that may or may not have been intended by GRRM, and may or may not be coincidence, is that canon Sansa as described looks a lot like Botticelli's Venus in the famous Birth of Venus painting. (Sansa on the whole could be a Botticelli model.)

Boticelli got the hair colour wrong here, though. Venus’s hair was honey blond, she had golden hair with curls, according to Homer, but the Romans depicted her as dark-haired if we are to consider a certain fresco in Pompeii, “… these Romans are crazy!” to quote Asterix the Gaul :D. Seriously, the Romans made Venus a more matronly and kindly figure, somewhat insipid in comparison to the Greek original goddess, who, like most Hellene deities, was quite flawed and even sadistic –when Psyche was finally captured, she had her whipped and beaten before imposing the four trials on her– and petty. Psyche’s hair colour is not stated in Apuleius’ text –Cupid is golden-haired like his mummy, but his eyes are dark–, and that’s why she’s depicted as a blonde as well, sometimes she’s described as having long, silky dark hair, but in a more recent retelling dated 1803, Psyche has auburn hair. Yes, the writer used the word “auburn.”

By the way, I was re-reading a different translation of Apuleius, and came into new info in this comment by the scholar who did it: it turns out that Adlington, the translator I cited, put too much effort in controlling or deleting the sexual innuendo that is evident in the original Latin text, specifically the “arrow” passage. What she was really doing was –ahem– handling Cupid’s “weapons of war”(gazing upon him, touching his physique, etc. Brash, remember what I told you about Sandor and his own physique?). The “she drew blood” part has an alternate translation: “tiny drops of rose-red blood moistened the surface of her skin,” meaning Apuleius is eroticising the previous loss of her maidenhood. It’s interesting that he should speak of lost virginity as “rose-red blood,” for red roses are Venus’ flowers because they supposedly arose from the blood spilt by the lover Ares murdered, and in Greek mythology red roses symbolise love and loyalty, so when a rose bleeds... you know what it means. The author of this edition also states that a literal translation shows that it’s Psyche the active partner both in and out of the bedchamber.

Speaking of roses… You know that rose that appears a lot in Medieval heraldry, like the Yorkist white rose, the Lancastrian red rose, the Tudor rose or the one in the House Tyrell sigil? It’s called a Dog Rose :D And it symbolises love AND maidenhood (only this species of rose has the latter symbolism attached to her, the former applies to all roses).

Concerning Venus and birds, doves weren’t her only special birds, they just pulled her chariot because a god and a horse together usually meant war or hard work. Sparrows were her preferred birds, too; both species were considered conspicuously lustful avians. All kinds of birds surrounded her, but predatory ones were banned from her presence, so eagles, falcons and the like would better stay far, far away from her if they didn’t want to lose all their feathers.

Enfin! Apparently Apuleius was “playing a little” with phrases just like Martin.

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* great post*

Welcome Mahaut! It's always nice to know that thoughtful readers are following this thread, and it's even more wonderful when they finally make an appearance :) I really enjoyed your post, as I'm pretty rusty on the whole courtly romance tradition. I do agree that Sansan represents a twisted version of those elements and of course, is a lot more fascinating as a result ;)

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Wow very interesting post Mahaut…

I have heard of courtly love but can’t say I really understand very much about it. Perusing Wikipedia has given me a little more to work with but I’m still not totally clear. (My biggest question was, was this something that *actually happened* in real life, or was it only in literature? Apparently they’re not really sure).

Anyway, I definitely see the parallels you mentioned with Sandor and Sansa. She is not in his league socially, and is also as of ACOK potentially doomed to a loveless and abusive marriage. Both because of his issues and because of his place in the Kingsguard, he is also doomed to life alone. That look thing you mentioned is especially interesting.

My own personal take on them, though, is that if there is romantic potential in their future—a big if—it’s not present as romance per se in anything that happened when they were together ...it’s more potential for the future because they seem to have developed a very genuine connection. Atypical, for sure, but there is a strange kind of intimacy there that we haven’t really seen that much elsewhere, and certainly not for Sansa’s relationships after she comes to KL. That’s how I see it, anyway. From the very little I know about courtly love, it seems like something that both parties were very aware of. Sansa seems to have this latent attraction for Sandor which develops later, and Sandor is chock full of issues which he is hopefully working out on the QI, but it’s not something they are entertaining when together. Well, maybe *he* is! :D

But I would love to read more about courtly love if you are up for posting it! We do see cases of Sandor being like one of the “true knights”, that he rails against so vehemently, so I’m up for exploring that more :). I guess even in my own limited knowledge of courtly love there are versions where it was consummated….Lancelot and Gueneviere (right? I get confused between the Arthurian legends I read years ago and movies I’ve seen over the years).

Anyway, thanks for posting that, it was very interesting!

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'Courtly love' is probably a lot closer to Sansa and Sandor's actual relationship, if a deal more romantic. At this point, Sansa and Sandor haven't even had a kiss, Sansa is married, and Sandor is either dead or getting over his issues on the QI. Even when they were together and both single, nothing overtly romantic happened (though, practically every thread has pointed out, there are lots of undertones. The age difference, class gap, and current geographical distance between them means that they're probably never going to get together romantically, but even so, their relationship is not quite platonic. Very interesting post, Mahaut. May I have some more? /Oliver Twist face

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