From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIII

[Beets]

I think it would have to be something pretty dire for them to actually leave the Vale though. In other threads we've talked about how something might happen to Sweetrobin, his health taking a turn for the worse, and them possibly seeking out the Elder Brother. But Petyr doesn't care about SR, as he disgusts Petyr....

Petyr would be forced to keep up appearances, though, especially with the Lords Declarant still lurking, albeit at half power. I can see him taking SR to the Elder Brother.

I think it's been speculated that it might be Lancel Lannister who faces Gregor/Robert in Cersei's trial. He's now a Warriors Son, and he'd be perfect cannon fodder for the job! :devil: :devil:

Why would Lancel fight for Cersei when he's all torn up with guilt? Maybe he still loves her, deep down... :(

I agree this could happen, and it does lead into Jaime fighting Cersei's champion (and perhaps defeating him). If that does happen it would also bring the Maggy the Frog prophecy to fruition (the woman who takes everything from Cersei/the Valonqar killing her). Cersei would view Sansa as taking Joff from her, from taking Jaime from her (being Sansa's champion)--probably some of the two most important things to her--her children and her brother. And then there is the Valonqar coming to take her life (I've always thought it was Jaime, since he was born holding onto Cersei's foot)

Fulfill ALL the prophecies!

Kill ALL the evilest people!

Reunite ALL the Sansan!

:P

Edit: Someone in another thread said that since Brienne has convinced Cat to give Jaime a proper trial, Jaime will probably win and continue trying to find Sansa. As a way to ensure his loyalty, he might be traveling with the Lem Lemoncloack. The hound-headed shadow could be Lem, since he's the last person who's been seen with Sandor's hound-head helm.

[Queen of Winter]

As to your question regarding if Sandor will become a new sort of verison of Ser Bonifer,while i do think he may very well do something to "atone" for the crimes that Rorge did in his name, i hope he doesn't become a devoted member of the Faith like Lance!

I'm hoping he doesn't become too pious, Caro! ;)

Why would Lancel fight for Cersei when he's all torn up with guilt? Maybe he still loves her, deep down... :(

Maybe it was Loras that people mentioned? But he's burned badly at the moment and in rough shape. Dammit. Who the heck was it that people had mentioned?

Fulfill ALL the prophecies!

Kill ALL the evilest people!

Reunite ALL the Sansan!

:P

:lol: :lol:

EDIT: add response to Caro.

[wonder1859]

Beets, I bow to the awesomeness of your scenario! :bowdown:

I just can't keep up with this thread! So many great posts to respond to. The rub is that by the time I have a minute to write something out, many and more posts have popped up that need reading and absorbing. I think I'll stick to lurking for now, with much appreciation for the depth of the discussions here.

Oh, and I really miss the Like button. :crying:

[Milady of York]

Can I join you in your dog and horse-related discussion, Queen of Winter and Kitten, s'il vous plait?

- Besides Kerberos, there are two more famous doggies in Greek mythology: Argos, Odysseus’ pet and Lailaps, the guardian of

baby Zeus.

a.

When Odysseus finally arrived in his home –Ithaca– after two decades of absence, he’s so changed that only a living soul can recognise him: Argos, his old dog, who had been a puppy when he had left for Troy, and he was the one who revealed his identity to a faithful servant. A dog can always recognise those he loves, no matter what disguise or name they use.

b.

Lailaps, on the other part, was a hound (Greek historian Pausanias and Roman poet Ovid call him The Hound or just A Hound, never naming him, but everyone understood who they were talking about), one that never failed to catch whatever prey was in sight, and in one version was originally owned by Artemis, who gave him to a mortal she favoured. In another version, Lailaps is the Golden Hound (simply referred to as Dog or Golden Dog) created by Rhea for the sole purpose of assigning him the tricky job of guarding the newborn future king of the gods who, as you know well, wasn’t exactly a dear creature to papa Kronos. He kept the baby safe in the cave where his mother hid him, and when he was an adult, Zeus gave it as a gift to one of his lovers –Europa– and thenceforward was handled down to her descendants until he was raised to heaven as a star: Canis Major. As you can see, the Greek also had a Heaven Hound, not only a Hell Hound.

- From Aléxandros to Sándor = Our Hound has more in common with King Alexander of Macedonia than just their names: their

horses and their love of dogs, not to mention their tempers and their ability for war.

a.

Like Sandor Clegane, Alexander the Great was very, very fond of dogs –he had a beloved pet, a hound called Peritas, whom he took with him on his campaign for the conquest of the Persian Empire. There are some fanciful records of Peritas’ deeds in battle that make him look like a canine version of Grey Wind, and some even say he saved Alexander’s life in battle; those are to be taken with a big grain of salt, however, it’s clear that dear Peritas was useful, loyal and doggedly watchful of his master. He wasn’t afraid of anything, he could even fight lions –Alexander was fond of hunting lions and boars– and for that reason, when he died during the Indian campaign, Alexander named a newly founded city after him, which would become a prosperous one later.

b.

Here’s the most interesting parallelism: Stranger is practically a copy of Alexander’s warhorse Bucephalus in all but name. Like Stranger, Bucephalus was an enormous black stallion, pretty mean and hot-tempered, a nightmare for the poor stable-boys and the Royal Pages. He cost King Philip, Alexander’s daddy, a sheer amount of gold that no one had ever paid before for a horse, thoroughbred or not, but none of his men could master him, and the king was berating them all when boy Alexander offered to master the horse on condition that he be given to him afterwards if he did. He did find a way to mount him, and thenceforward this horse would never be mounted by another but Alexander himself, and according to historian Arrian of Nicomedia –the most accurate of his biographers– if others dared to approach him or try to mount him, Bucephalus would make sure they learnt their lesson the hard way (read: threw them off from his back or kicked and bit them). Alexander used him in important battles, and was so fond of him that once when his horse was stolen from him, he issued a proclamation that the thieves should bring his horse back safe and sound as soon as they could or else he would burn the villages and put the inhabitants to the sword. The harsh threat worked just fine, Bucephalus was handed back to him in less than you can pronounce its name, and served the king until his death of old age (some historians say he was wounded in battle, but I doubt that version) in India less than a year before his dog’s death. In his memory, Alexander founded the city of Bucephala. Like master, like pet: two hot-tempered horses for two hot-tempered warriors.

On a side note, I wouldn’t interpret the leg wound as impotence in this case :D Alexander too had a leg wound, many leg wounds in fact, he even broke his leg once –he sustained so many wounds in battle that I wonder how in the name of Zeus he didn’t die at least thrice– but he recovered and kept fighting for the rest of his life. The most serious wound was to the lung when he was more or less a pair of years older than Sandor: an arrow to the chest in India punctured a lung, he almost died, and was feverish and bedridden for a long time, but he recovered. There was no major battle for him later, but he was planning new grandiose campaigns when he died, so it shows that he thought he was still in good shape to fight side by side with his soldiers in the vanguard as he used to.

[brashcandy]

[Threadkeeping]

So I know we've been heavily involved in mythology and the beauty and beast insights this thread, but just as a reminder, we still have to complete the project on Sansa's relationships with male characters in the text. The B&B analyses will undoubtedly carry over into thread 14, but it would be nice to come close to wrapping up this project in the remaining time we have left for the current thread incarnation, with the discussion flowing over as usual.

Ned (Lady Candace) completed

Jon (tze) completed

Robb (mythsandstuff) Part 1

Loras &Willas (Lady Lea) completed

Joffrey (Summerqueen)

Sandor (Lord Bronn Stokeworth) Part 1 Part 2 Part 3

Tyrion (House Draper) Lyanna Stark

Littlefinger (Pod the Impaler)

Jaime (kittykatknits)

Lothor (Caro99) completed

Marillion (Ragnorak) completed

Sweetrobin (KRBD) completed

Dontos (Elba the Intoner) completed

Bran&Rickon (brashcandy) completed

FYI: Lyanna Stark will be taking over the analysis on Tyrion. [/TK]

[DreamSongs]

Ragnorak I love the idea of Sansa as a sheep (a wolf disguise as a sheep) between the golden Lannister (that at the end they may be the sheeps). But also it would be nice to find out that Sansa has taken the golden wool (the money of the Lannister, as a Lannister that she is right now).

About the ants as smallfolks and Margaery. I will say that Margaery really doesn´t love smallfolks. She uses them as a shield and weapon against Cersei. Margaery seeks their love because Cersei hadn´t it.

While Sansa really loves them. But I don´t know if she will be able to conquer their love.

I like a lot the idea of Sansa feeding smallfolk at Winter.

Brash I see the golden wool as money. It can be from the Lannister or from LF (sure that he being the master of coins and having whore houses).

The fingers are near by sea at White Harbour, no?

Wonderful thread. Sansa as the wolf in sheep's clothing...brilliant!

[Caro99]

Here’s the most interesting parallelism: Stranger is practically a copy of Alexander’s warhorse Bucephalus in all but name.

Great post, but this bit with Stranger reminded me another reason why Sandor may not become all pious and a devote of the sparrows: Stranger didn't allow himself to be gelded ;)

[James Arryn]

Can I join you in your dog and horse-related discussion, Queen of Winter and Kitten, s'il vous plait?

- Besides Kerberos, there are two more famous doggies in Greek mythology: Argos, Odysseus’ pet and Lailaps, the guardian of

baby Zeus.

a.

When Odysseus finally arrived in his home –Ithaca– after two decades of absence, he’s so changed that only a living soul can recognise him: Argos, his old dog, who had been a puppy when he had left for Troy, and he was the one who revealed his identity to a faithful servant. A dog can always recognise those he loves, no matter what disguise or name they use.

b.

Lailaps, on the other part, was a hound (Greek historian Pausanias and Roman poet Ovid call him The Hound or just A Hound, never naming him, but everyone understood who they were talking about), one that never failed to catch whatever prey was in sight, and in one version was originally owned by Artemis, who gave him to a mortal she favoured. In another version, Lailaps is the Golden Hound (simply referred to as Dog or Golden Dog) created by Rhea for the sole purpose of assigning him the tricky job of guarding the newborn future king of the gods who, as you know well, wasn’t exactly a dear creature to papa Kronos. He kept the baby safe in the cave where his mother hid him, and when he was an adult, Zeus gave it as a gift to one of his lovers –Europa– and thenceforward was handled down to her descendants until he was raised to heaven as a star: Canis Major. As you can see, the Greek also had a Heaven Hound, not only a Hell Hound.

- From Aléxandros to Sándor = Our Hound has more in common with King Alexander of Macedonia than just their names: their

horses and their love of dogs, not to mention their tempers and their ability for war.

a.

Like Sandor Clegane, Alexander the Great was very, very fond of dogs –he had a beloved pet, a hound called Peritas, whom he took with him on his campaign for the conquest of the Persian Empire. There are some fanciful records of Peritas’ deeds in battle that make him look like a canine version of Grey Wind, and some even say he saved Alexander’s life in battle; those are to be taken with a big grain of salt, however, it’s clear that dear Peritas was useful, loyal and doggedly watchful of his master. He wasn’t afraid of anything, he could even fight lions –Alexander was fond of hunting lions and boars– and for that reason, when he died during the Indian campaign, Alexander named a newly founded city after him, which would become a prosperous one later.

b.

Here’s the most interesting parallelism: Stranger is practically a copy of Alexander’s warhorse Bucephalus in all but name. Like Stranger, Bucephalus was an enormous black stallion, pretty mean and hot-tempered, a nightmare for the poor stable-boys and the Royal Pages. He cost King Philip, Alexander’s daddy, a sheer amount of gold that no one had ever paid before for a horse, thoroughbred or not, but none of his men could master him, and the king was berating them all when boy Alexander offered to master the horse on condition that he be given to him afterwards if he did. He did find a way to mount him, and thenceforward this horse would never be mounted by another but Alexander himself, and according to historian Arrian of Nicomedia –the most accurate of his biographers– if others dared to approach him or try to mount him, Bucephalus would make sure they learnt their lesson the hard way (read: threw them off from his back or kicked and bit them). Alexander used him in important battles, and was so fond of him that once when his horse was stolen from him, he issued a proclamation that the thieves should bring his horse back safe and sound as soon as they could or else he would burn the villages and put the inhabitants to the sword. The harsh threat worked just fine, Bucephalus was handed back to him in less than you can pronounce its name, and served the king until his death of old age (some historians say he was wounded in battle, but I doubt that version) in India less than a year before his dog’s death. In his memory, Alexander founded the city of Bucephala. Like master, like pet: two hot-tempered horses for two hot-tempered warriors.

On a side note, I wouldn’t interpret the leg wound as impotence in this case :D Alexander too had a leg wound, many leg wounds in fact, he even broke his leg once –he sustained so many wounds in battle that I wonder how in the name of Zeus he didn’t die at least thrice– but he recovered and kept fighting for the rest of his life. The most serious wound was to the lung when he was more or less a pair of years older than Sandor: an arrow to the chest in India punctured a lung, he almost died, and was feverish and bedridden for a long time, but he recovered. There was no major battle for him later, but he was planning new grandiose campaigns when he died, so it shows that he thought he was still in good shape to fight side by side with his soldiers in the vanguard as he used to.

There are so many extreme divergences as to make the comparison null, though.

Among them, Alexander's exceptional degree of devotion to/belief in heroic ideals and legends. To the point where his most constant companion, even above his dogs, was his copy of the Iliad. Whereas Sandor is representative of Westerosi style iconoclasm. Herein I link indirectly to Alcibiades, because of...I kid, I kid.

[Elba the Intoner]

I've been away for a few days and trying to follow along on my phone but have been distracted. I finally got to focus on the last few pages and may I just say how fantastic it is? Milady and QOW that was some great reading.

[ArabellaVidal]

I like that observation as well! I can almost see Mya or Randa asking Sansa about that mysterious man she keeps dreaming about or something, and her being like, “He was no her but he was a good man nevertheless.”

'He is no true knight but he saved me all the same, she told the Mother.' Sansa in ACOK just before the Battle of Blackwater Bay. :D

[Lyanna Stark]

<snipped brilliance>

:bowdown:

If that doesn't seal the deal of where the parallels run, I don't know what ever will! Every time there is a denier of there being anything but brotherly feelings or actually anything at all, I am just going to link this. And a big HAH! But really, that is fantastic. Really, really great.

Can I also add that I got so inspired by the footnotes I started using them in my techie documents at work, to other people's awe and fear. People aren't used to reading system architecture documents with footnotes, apparently. :P

I think I've said before in this thread that LF's storyline is what would happen to the Underdog Hero if he lived in a crueler world. So if LF's plot can get so twisted, what's in store for Sansa and Sandor?

I made myself sad. :(

Awwh don't be sad. There are no guarantees for anything of course, but can you imagine Sandor going to Kings Landing bragging about deflowering Sansa to all and sundry who cares to hear? I can't. Littlefinger professed his undying love for Cat, but he was perfectly fine with using her as only a bragging tool later on. She also asked him not to fight Brandon and she refused him her token. Littlefinger's love for Cat was his personal wish fulfillment without any basis in reality. Cat didn't return his feelings. She didn't want to go against her father for his sake.

Now, Lysa might have, had he really gone for her, but it was Cat he wanted. Therein lies the sadness as well. Had it not been a war and Lysa had been a bit more clever about it (perhaps arranging an elopement or something) he could have ended up with one Tully girl, but instead, he just went for the solution that was completely politically unsound and would never work.

While Sandor shares low stations with Littlefinger, he doesn't share the other traits, in that he's not deluding himself into thinking Sansa loves him, nor does he somehow think she's going to forsake everything for his sake, etc. He even admitted to Arya that he lied about the song. Littlefinger is not admitting to himself that he's lying about taking Cat's virginity. And he's happy perpetuating that lie, too, while Sandor has a hard time lying about a small thing like a song to himself and to Arya (who really wouldn't care one way or another).

Most people think Jaime will fight against Gregor in Cersei's initial duely-trialy-bob, and while that's definitely probable, I think there are a few more options that are feasible and fit with the original theory about Harrenhal. Someone (it might have been me, I seriously cannot remember right now) wondered earlier in the thread what Cersei might do once she found out Sansa - the girl she thinks killed her baby Joffy - is still alive and under LF's protection. A few things would need to happen beforehand if my hypothetical version of the epic showdown is going to happen.

It's unlikely it's going to be either Sandor or Jaime fighting Un-Gregor, since Jaime is lost as of the end of ADWD and presumed possibly dead, while Sandor is presumed to be an outlaw and a rapist (although he's also "dead", in the same way Jaime is "dead").

Interestingly, Cersei seemed to have almost an epiphany during her Walk of Shame. She saw Sansa and Ned in the crowd, and she thinks to herself that she never meant for Sansa to marry the imp, she meant to make a good marriage for her. In other words: Cersei feels guilty! She may have said that Sansa would be begging the Stranger for a kiss while she was drunk at that Council meeting, but during her WoS we get quite a different reaction. Only remains to be seen if it will last!

[ArabellaVidal]

Milady of York, Queen of Winter, Beets, Lyanna Stark. Great points as always.

Beets said:

Someone (it might have been me, I seriously cannot remember right now) wondered earlier in the thread what Cersei might do once she found out Sansa - the girl she thinks killed her baby Joffy - is still alive and under LF's protection.

Jaime to Brienne in his last chapter of ASOS: 'Cersei means to see that the girl [sansa] is found and killed, wherever she has gone to ground...'

Harrenhal has a central place in the convergence of storylines in ASOIAF. So I do see the climax of these particular threads happening there. Also it would be stupid to assume that Cersei will not win her trial by battle with Ser Robert Strong as her champion and Qyburn pulling the strings. (Remember how GRRM seduced us all into thinking that Oberyn Martell would win spectacularly against the Mountain?)

Beets:

Someone in another thread said that since Brienne has convinced Cat to give Jaime a proper trial, Jaime will probably win and continue trying to find Sansa. As a way to ensure his loyalty, he might be traveling with the Lem Lemoncloack. The hound-headed shadow could be Lem, since he's the last person who's been seen with Sandor's hound-head helm.

There is another debate on the new Hound being Brienne with her new scars and Jaime's mental association of her as a 'female Hound' etc. The only problem I've ever found with that is Brienne's own experience of the helm.

GRRM on Beauty and the Beast:

Artistically, I remain very proud of the third season arc. At the end of "Invictus," when Diana shoots Gabriel and says, "This was Catherine Chandler's gun," it still sends shivers dwon my spine... even though I wrote those words myself.

Reminds me a bit of this line by Jaime: 'So you'll be defending Ned Stark's daughter with Ned Stark's own steel...'

[Beets]

Awwh don't be sad. There are no guarantees for anything of course, but can you imagine Sandor going to Kings Landing bragging about deflowering Sansa to all and sundry who cares to hear? I can't. Littlefinger professed his undying love for Cat, but he was perfectly fine with using her as only a bragging tool later on. She also asked him not to fight Brandon and she refused him her token. Littlefinger's love for Cat was his personal wish fulfillment without any basis in reality. Cat didn't return his feelings. She didn't want to go against her father for his sake.

Now, Lysa might have, had he really gone for her, but it was Cat he wanted. Therein lies the sadness as well. Had it not been a war and Lysa had been a bit more clever about it (perhaps arranging an elopement or something) he could have ended up with one Tully girl, but instead, he just went for the solution that was completely politically unsound and would never work.

While Sandor shares low stations with Littlefinger, he doesn't share the other traits, in that he's not deluding himself into thinking Sansa loves him, nor does he somehow think she's going to forsake everything for his sake, etc. He even admitted to Arya that he lied about the song. Littlefinger is not admitting to himself that he's lying about taking Cat's virginity. And he's happy perpetuating that lie, too, while Sandor has a hard time lying about a small thing like a song to himself and to Arya (who really wouldn't care one way or another).

Oooh. I wasn't suggesting Sandor and Sansa's story parallels LFs and Catelyn's, I'm just saying that both sets of interactions have a very song-like element to them, and I think that GRRM loves subverting those songs instead of playing them straight. Then again, he might subvert the subversion (SUBVER-CEPTION) and give us an antithesis to LF's and Cat's story, where the heroes weren't twisted and the story ended the way it was supposed to.

It's unlikely it's going to be either Sandor or Jaime fighting Un-Gregor, since Jaime is lost as of the end of ADWD and presumed possibly dead, while Sandor is presumed to be an outlaw and a rapist (although he's also "dead", in the same way Jaime is "dead").

BLAARGH. This is why I need my ASoIaF-bro to loan me his copy. I'm broke and the library doesn't have it.

Interestingly, Cersei seemed to have almost an epiphany during her Walk of Shame. She saw Sansa and Ned in the crowd, and she thinks to herself that she never meant for Sansa to marry the imp, she meant to make a good marriage for her. In other words: Cersei feels guilty! She may have said that Sansa would be begging the Stranger for a kiss while she was drunk at that Council meeting, but during her WoS we get quite a different reaction. Only remains to be seen if it will last!

Woow. Does she still believe it was Sansa at all, or has she changed her mind and decided that since Sansa is pretty, and ugly=evil, that it must have been Tyrion?

Cersei's an idiot. :bang:

But at least she'll leave Sansa alone!

...or will she? TWow needs to get itself written. And everything changes if Sansa DOES gain the support of the North, and tries to revive the whole "KING QUEEN IN THE NORTH" thing. It's questionable how well that would work, what with the Northern forces scattered and beaten, but it would piss Cersei off enough for her to send the Gregor after her.

Jaime to Brienne in his last chapter of ASOS: 'Cersei means to see that the girl [sansa] is found and killed, wherever she has gone to ground...'

Harrenhal has a central place in the convergence of storylines in ASOIAF. So I do see the climax of these particular threads happening there. Also it would be stupid to assume that Cersei will not win her trial by battle with Ser Robert Strong as her champion and Qyburn pulling the strings. (Remember how GRRM seduced us all into thinking that Oberyn Martell would win spectacularly against the Mountain?)

There's a lot of Oberyn fan-worship on this forum, and his followers trail from thread to thread, with their depressing signatures lagging behind them. :frown5: Definitely unexpected.

There is another debate on the new Hound being Brienne with her new scars and Jaime's mental association of her as a 'female Hound' etc. The only problem I've ever found with that is Brienne's own experience of the helm.

An antithesis to the Hound in the ways it matters, then? Female, a firm believer in honor and songs... Maybe we'll see Brienne becoming more like the Hound and the Hound becoming more like Brienne. There's tons and tons of examples of characters meeting in the middle, and this would be another interesting combination.

[bgona]

"Myths, Dogs, Love and Heroes- Part Two"

Warning ...crazy crackpots ahead! :wacko:

The Dog and the Hero

Getting back on track in relation to the topic of "dogs":

Also I found interesting: "....compared to other cultures it is "striking " that Chinese literature rarely has given names for dogs. (Eberhard 2003: 82) This means that in the context of Chinese mythology, often a dog will play an important role, but that it will not be given a proper name, but rather being referred to as "dog".

I think this might refer to "true names" and the power of names, which we did discuss in past incarnations of FPTP.

People always call Sandor "Dog", even Sansa questions him why he lets people do that.

In prior FPTP thread, I also brought up Septon Meribald and his dog, whom he calls "Dog".

You can see the whole post here:

http://asoiaf.wester...20#entry3144324

There was a part in that post, about Septon Meribald talking to Podrick about Dog:

“Oh.” Podrick did not know what to make of a dog named Dog, plainly. The boy chewed on that a while, then said, “I used to have a dog when I was little. I called him Hero.”

“Was he?”

“Was he what?”

“A hero.”

“No. He was a good dog, though. He died.”

This may sound very crackpottish but, in my ponderings I've come across a book called "The Last Hero". It's part of the series of books involving "The Saint" which was written in the 1930's, by Leslie Charteris. I feel I've come across some interesting parallels.

Just some quotes/synopsis of the book here:

"The protagonist is a man called Simon Templar. He is a thief known as The Saint because of his initials and because his heroic exploits fly in the face of an otherwise nefarious reputation. Templar has aliases, often using the initials S.T. such as "Sebastian Tombs. His true name is unknown, and the name "Templar" was adopted at an early age from reading about the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon, the Knights Templar. Blessed with boyish humor, he makes humorous and off-putting remarks ...."

As for "heroic exploits", I'm thinking of when Sandor traveled with Arya, and how he tried to help Sansa in Kings Landing. He didn't have to do those things. Sandor's got a pretty nasty reputation, and I'll bet no one would have expected him to help two highborn girls, and they would probably have trouble believing it. And yes, he does make some pretty funny (at least to me anyway!) and off putting remarks which are peppered throughout the story.

Again, here is someone who is using a moniker, like The Hound. And ironic that it's stated Templar's "true name" isn't known. (There seems to be a lot of talk about "true" things in ASOIAF. "True wine", "True knights",etc").

Given that Sandor is (we assume) on the QI as the Gravedigger, the mention of the Poor Soldiers of Christ made me think of The Poor Fellows of the Faith of the Seven. I think it's safe to say that when Sandor was a child he wanted to be a knight, after all it was Gregor's toy knight that he took, wanting to play with it--that caused him to be burned.

More on "The Saint" book:

"The Last Hero starts ......with an account of Simon Templar, The Saint, foiling an assassination attempt on a visiting prince by tricking the would-be assassin into blowing himself up. This leads to The Saint becoming a cause célèbre , to the point where the government offers him not only a full pardon for past crimes, but also a job as a sanctioned crime-buster. Templar politely refuses, saying he prefers to remain underground, his identity a secret to all but a select few.

Over the next three months, the Saint proceeds to operate so far in the shadows that the general public thinks he has retired or disappeared."

Now, of course Sandor's not going to go around Westeros solving crimes :lol: (nor do I think that people will become enamored of him), but I think he still has a part to play in the upcoming story, and he's going to do something fairly important (perhaps having to do with Sansa). I think it's going to be a totally un-Hound like deed, that is going to make someone offer to pardon him for "past crimes", namely the things Rorge did, while wearing Sandor's Hound helm. And depending on what "heroic" thing he does, could he be offered a position in service? If so, does he take it? Will it be a position like Bonifer has? Or perhaps one in service to another person, in a different form.

The time line to the Saint story above, in relation to Sandor's might be a little off, because I think spending time out of the public eye, screams the Quiet Isle. Sandor will stay there for awhile, then something will cause him to leave--later he'll get the pardon, etc. (Wondering aloud: Will word get out that "The Hound" is dead? Or will Lem keep the helm?)

Back to the book: (this first bit below included just to fill in some background of the story, due to the mentioning of a "girlfriend"):

"Later, during an outing in the countryside girlfriend Patricia Holm, Templar stumbles upon a secret government installation where he and Holm witness the testing of a deadly and mysterious weapon. Templar and Holm are about to leave when they encounter a giant of a man named Rayt Marius, an evil tycoon who wants the weapon for his own purposes.Things become complicated when Marius kidnaps Patricia Holm, setting Templar off into an uncharacteristically murderous rage."

Again, not everything matches up and the timing of the story is off. But I'm thinking the "giant" might be Petyr Baelish (re: the Titan Of Braavos). He's got money, he's one of the wealthiest men in Westeros now and we know he was the "Master of Coin". He's taken Sansa to the Vale against her will (i.e. kidnapped). Granted it's not a weapon he wants, it's Sansa. Does Sandor somehow find out about her being taken to the Vale by Petyr, and fly into a Cú Chulainn type battle frenzy/ ríastrad?

"After rescuing Patricia from the clutches of Marius, Templar realizes that his quest for anonymity is at an end (with Rayt Marius now aware of who he really is) and begins to make plans to leave the country (along with his compatriots if they so choose).

Could it be that Sandor has a hand in rescuing Sansa? Would the rescue cause him to reveal himself? As for leaving Westeros? I don't think that will happen but there is this from ASOS, the Arya chapter where she and Sandor are at the Inn:

"The Hound never flicked an eye at Arya. “If I’d wanted you to know, I’d have told you. Are there ships at Saltpans?”

It was never said exactly where Sandor was looking to go. One time when Arya asked him, his reply was, "Away. That's all you need to know". Where was he looking to go?

When Arya wanted to go to the Wall, Sandor told her they'd never make it. But I do remember from ACOK, after the Battle of the Blackwater when Sandor was in Sansa's room, he told her he was looking to go "Away from the fire" and "North somewhere, anywhere.”

There is also a character in "The Last Hero", Norman, who harbors an "unrequited love" for Patricia Holm. He is killed during the story. This is said of him:

"Norman Kent is in effect "fey", meaning doomed to die - for example, his hopeless but gallant love for Patricia Holm. Norman Kent, rather than Templar, is the true protagonist - certainly in the book's later parts - and he is manifestly "The Last Hero" of the title.

Intriguing. We know the Hound already "died" for/because of Sansa. Could this also herald other things?

Part Three covering caves, Sandor's Trial, and some other "stuff", coming soon..... :stillsick:

EDIT: formatting

I feel old because I had watched the tv serie about The Saint :rofl: (better than the movie, I didn´t like Val Kilmer as The Saint).

About dogs: I have the crazy theory that Sandor will be involved at the Frey downfall. His helmet is having its own way to reunite the Hound persona with Sandor.

The Frey at White Harbour said a lot of references about hounds. Dispicting the dogs and The Hound.

---------

Also about the horses: the most important horses have name. For that matter Don Quixote horse name is also known: Rocinante.

The Cid (an important castillian warrior) are known the name of his horse (Babieca) and his swords: Tizona y Colada.

And most important: Attila´s horse is also known: Othar. This is important because the Dothrakis resembles to me to the hunes.

[Milady of York]

There are so many extreme divergences as to make the comparison null, though.

Among them, Alexander's exceptional degree of devotion to/belief in heroic ideals and legends. To the point where his most constant companion, even above his dogs, was his copy of the Iliad. Whereas Sandor is representative of Westerosi style iconoclasm. Herein I link indirectly to Alcibiades, because of...I kid, I kid.

Milady thinks we’re talking about different aspects here, she mentioned dogs and horses and you are trying to invalidate her comparisons resorting to personality and ideals, which are different issues she hasn’t mentioned. If you read her post carefully, you’ll see she has mentioned 2 comparisons only: their love for dogs and their horses, basing her arguments on what is stated in sources such as Plutarch, Arrian, Curtius and Diodorus, whom she’s studied for ages and even translated one of them, therefore she knows well that Alexander cannot be compared to Sandor in terms of personality –bar their quick temper–, they’re completely different, nor can they be compared physically. However, the dog and horse comparisons stand as valid.

:bowdown:

If that doesn't seal the deal of where the parallels run, I don't know what ever will! Every time there is a denier of there being anything but brotherly feelings or actually anything at all, I am just going to link this. And a big HAH! But really, that is fantastic. Really, really great.

Can I also add that I got so inspired by the footnotes I started using them in my techie documents at work, to other people's awe and fear. People aren't used to reading system architecture documents with footnotes, apparently. :P

Oh, Lyanna! It's an honour for me that you consider my humble post should be used as reference for future debates you'll be involved in. When Lyanna Stark thinks it's worth it, then it is.

Footnotes are intimidating by nature, it seems. It flatters me that you're using them, and also conmiserate with the poor colleagues that have to read them now :)

[Queen of Winter]

Ooooh, MoY--I love your thoughts on Alexander the Great and of his horse! Excellent, excellent work! :) :thumbsup:

Great post, but this bit with Stranger reminded me another reason why Sandor may not become all pious and a devote of the sparrows: Stranger didn't allow himself to be gelded ;)

Exactly, Caro! ;)

I've been away for a few days and trying to follow along on my phone but have been distracted. I finally got to focus on the last few pages and may I just say how fantastic it is? Milady and QOW that was some great reading.

Can't wait to see your B&B write-up, Elba! :)

'He is no true knight but he saved me all the same, she told the Mother.' Sansa in ACOK just before the Battle of Blackwater Bay.

I forgot about that! Nice catch! :thumbsup:

Reminds me a bit of this line by Jaime: 'So you'll be defending Ned Stark's daughter with Ned Stark's own steel...'

This could be very telling. And I like the thoughts on Brienne becoming more "Hound like". I guess it could happen--we did have Ser Loras--who is supposed to be gorgeous and to represent knightly ideals (yeah right, Loras) become horribly burnt. Though that is a physical thing--Brienne did have half her cheek eaten :ack: by Biter.(Can I say I'm so glad he's dead--he's one of the few characters that really, really bothered me. I found him quite terrifying.)

An antithesis to the Hound in the ways it matters, then? Female, a firm believer in honor and songs... Maybe we'll see Brienne becoming more like the Hound and the Hound becoming more like Brienne. There's tons and tons of examples of characters meeting in the middle, and this would be another interesting combination.

Definitely food for thought, Beets!

It's unlikely it's going to be either Sandor or Jaime fighting Un-Gregor, since Jaime is lost as of the end of ADWD and presumed possibly dead, while Sandor is presumed to be an outlaw and a rapist (although he's also "dead", in the same way Jaime is "dead").

Lyanna, I'm curious...what are your thoughts on what might happen with Robert Strong? I can't remember if you've mentioned it here in the past .... :huh:

Interestingly, Cersei seemed to have almost an epiphany during her Walk of Shame. She saw Sansa and Ned in the crowd, and she thinks to herself that she never meant for Sansa to marry the imp, she meant to make a good marriage for her. In other words: Cersei feels guilty! She may have said that Sansa would be begging the Stranger for a kiss while she was drunk at that Council meeting, but during her WoS we get quite a different reaction. Only remains to be seen if it will last!

Yeah, she did see Sansa, Ned and a grey dog during her walk:

"She saw Ned Stark, and beside him little Sansa with her auburn hair and a shaggy grey dog that might have been her wolf."

Not sure if I buy Cersei's change of heart. I guess if we can see other characters change in such a way, it might be possible for her too (though I'm not banking on it to stick!) <_<

[Valkyrja]

Yeah, she did see Sansa, Ned and a grey dog during her walk:

"She saw Ned Stark, and beside him little Sansa with her auburn hair and a shaggy grey dog that might have been her wolf."

Not sure if I buy Cersei's change of heart. I guess if we can see other characters change in such a way, it might be possible for her too (though I'm not banking on it to stick!) <_<

Um, HOLY CRAP. How did I miss THAT (I read ADwD fairly recently, but somehow that line slipped right past me.) I was actually really upset by Cersei's Walk of Shame (I almost felt physically ill), so I was trying to get through that chapter as fast as I could. But how I missed what seems to be, in my humble opinion, a nod by GRRM to Sansa and Sandor (or else he would not have made it ambiguous whether or not it was Lady--a direwolf-- that Cersei had seen, rather than a big shaggy dog. Not to mention that they were alongside Ned, interesting), I will never know. :blushing:

As for Cersei's 'change of heart'.....I'm not sure either, as she seems to be 'biding her time' at the end of ADwD, waiting for her moment to come. But at the same time, I don't see why she couldn't have, in that very horrible moment of her walk of shame, truly felt guilty for her part in what happened to Ned and to Sansa (and to Lady).

[Lyanna Stark]

Lyanna, I'm curious...what are your thoughts on what might happen with Robert Strong? I can't remember if you've mentioned it here in the past .... :huh:

I tend to think the Faith will find out what he is and either have him put down, or that when Cersei flees the capital (I can't see her staying on while having lost power like she has and with the Lannisters on the wane and Aegon coming) that she'll take him with her. He might off Lancel first though, if the Faith is stupid enough to pick him as their champion, although I tend to think it will be either Loras (unburnt and not dead) or someone else.

EDIT: I might add here, I do not think it would be in keeping with the way the story is going if UnGregor got to fight Sandor or Jaime. Jaime has rejected Cersei and seems to be on another path, while Sandor is hopefully getting some much needed therapy at the QI. Often people seem to focus more on what is badass than what is realistic, or what would be good for a realistically drawn character. Like all the people who are overjoyed with Arya being a coldhearted assassin. That's not a happy person in making, and neither was Sandor. The Elder Brother described his life as writ in blood and wine, and I think Sandor's was the same.

Yeah, she did see Sansa, Ned and a grey dog during her walk:

"She saw Ned Stark, and beside him little Sansa with her auburn hair and a shaggy grey dog that might have been her wolf."

Not sure if I buy Cersei's change of heart. I guess if we can see other characters change in such a way, it might be possible for her too (though I'm not banking on it to stick!) <_<

Well, well, "a shaggy grey dog that might have been her wolf".

Say no more, say no more, nudge nudge wink wink, know what I mean? (because Monty Python are never wrong)

I wonder if the colour is significant? Cersei can't say if it's a dog or a wolf and it's described as grey and shaggy. Grey is the Stark colour and I doubt Cersei had the first clue on Lady's colouring.

[Queen of Winter]

I tend to think the Faith will find out what he is and either have him put down, or that when Cersei flees the capital (I can't see her staying on while having lost power like she has and with the Lannisters on the wane and Aegon coming) that she'll take him with her. He might off Lancel first though, if the Faith is stupid enough to pick him as their champion, although I tend to think it will be either Loras (unburnt and not dead) or someone else.

Like the rogue dog he is? ;)

EDIT: I might add here, I do not think it would be in keeping with the way the story is going if UnGregor got to fight Sandor or Jaime. Jaime has rejected Cersei and seems to be on another path, while Sandor is hopefully getting some much needed therapy at the QI. Often people seem to focus more on what is badass than what is realistic, or what would be good for a realistically drawn character. Like all the people who are overjoyed with Arya being a coldhearted assassin. That's not a happy person in making, and neither was Sandor. The Elder Brother described his life as writ in blood and wine, and I think Sandor's was the same.

You do have some good points here, especially in your Edit. I don't think Sandor will fight UnGregor (though I guess anything could happen) because it doesn't seem to fit into his arc (if he does anything for "revenge"--for lack of a better word-- I think it might have to do with LF on Sansa's behalf). But for some reason I feel there might be more chance that Jaime might slay Ungregor.

I agree with you on what you say about the "bad assery". I definitely don't like Arya's path :frown5: but she won't stay an assassin forever. She's with the FM to learn something, and when the lesson is finished, she'll be done with them (and hopefully be able to reunite with what's left of her family).

Well, well, "a shaggy grey dog that might have been her wolf".

Say no more, say no more, nudge nudge wink wink, know what I mean? (because Monty Python are never wrong)

I wonder if the colour is significant? Cersei can't say if it's a dog or a wolf and it's described as grey and shaggy. Grey is the Stark colour and I doubt Cersei had the first clue on Lady's colouring.

*coughs* Sandor's armour is described as plain grey, nondescript. *coughs* :rolleyes:

[Silverin]

Yeah, she did see Sansa, Ned and a grey dog during her walk:

"She saw Ned Stark, and beside him little Sansa with her auburn hair and a shaggy grey dog that might have been her wolf."

Not sure if I buy Cersei's change of heart. I guess if we can see other characters change in such a way, it might be possible for her too (though I'm not banking on it to stick!) <_<

I actually cried during that scene. Just the whole, Cersei's walk and her visions were so heartbreaking, the way she was swearing she won'T lt it get to her, she will stay proad, (and I was cheering on her...I was cheering for a character who ordered to murdered children...), and then she saw Ned, Sansa and the shaggy wolf and I was weeping. Though I always crie when someone remembers Ned. But just that I know that in Cersei life Sansa had much more impact so maybe that is why she saw her, but I always saw Sansa as very much like Ned, so them standing next to each other was just all the plus. SO she standng next to him. Not to mention through the many chapters of other characters there is not that much thought about either of them

(Like Jon, he rages and wants to go against Ramsay to free Arya, yet the words that Sansa was forced to marry tyrion doesn't seem to bother him at all... I know Arya is his favourite but that always bothered me....), and the charactrer we hear to remember them the most is Cersei! (I mean I was waiting from Jon some brotherly reaction, I was waiting from Barristan that he let a great man die some thinks about regret, or etc but no.). SO that just hit me more.

But about Cersei, I don't think she changed in a way that she becomes a good hero. I thinks she changed in a way that she will be more careful and more dangerous. Cersei time to time did show that she can be intelligent, but often her personal entitlement did get the worst of her. The Walk did chipped (in a horrible way that no one deserves) a little away of that (definietly not all), but that didn'T break her, exactly that is why I think Cersei will be much more lethal and ruthless. And I am sure Robert Strong will win. At least his first battle.

And the HIgh Septon created an incredibly dangerous enemy for himself (I won'T cry for that womanhater, again I will cheer for Cersei when she finishes him off)