From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIII

[Milady of York]

Tze, wonderful post!

In a way, this seeming inversion might be more understandable if we understand just what influence Sansa appears to be having on Sandor. Sansa, never forget, is a warg. Wolves, we're told, can never be tamed, and we repeatedly see people try--and ultimately fail--to "tame" and control Sansa. Dogs by their very nature are easily tameable. Sandor Clegane starts out as a dog, obeying all of the orders he's given. He slowly becomes wilder and wilder, more and more difficult to "tame", over the course of his association with Sansa, leading to him eventually abandoning his position and the court entirely---Sansa's influence drives him into the wilderness, away from the "center" of society. This is the opposite of what we'd expect from the "Beauty's" influence on the "Beast", but what's interesting is that here, the Beauty does indeed transform the Beast into a form more like her. In B&TB, the Beast basically becomes a male Beauty. But Sansa, as a warg, is herself a "beast"---just in a more literal sense than "beasts" like Joffrey/Tyrion/Littlefinger. Sandor becomes more "wolflike" via the influence of Sansa, a warg, so in a twisted sense the Sansa/Sandor influence arc does parallel B&TB, simply with the ultimate destination of the two character arcs inverted---the Beauty is actually more of a true beast than the Beast himself, and she influences the Beast to become more of a "beast", to make himself more like her (more of a wolf than a dog).

I love this! More than an inversion of the traditional plot of Beauty and the Beast, this is an inversion of one of the four types of endings all classified Beauty and the Beast tales have: the Beauty transforms into a Beast to join her mate (Type 2).

I think Sansa actually inverts quite a bit of the "Beauty and the Beast" story, rather than sticking to the traditional arc. B&TB is a story in which a girl chooses imprisonment with a Beast---a transformed Prince who has shut himself away from the world---in exchange for her father being set free by the Beast; she and the Beast then fall in love, and the Beast is transformed back into a handsome prince. Sansa starts out on that path . . . but while Sansa is definitely imprisoned, her father ultimately isn't set free by the "beast" Joffrey, he's executed. The expected results never materialize: Sansa's imprisonment does not save Ned, Joffrey is never transformed out of his "beast" self, and Sansa falls out of love with, and ultimately escapes from, him---this is the exact opposite of the "Beauty and the Beast" plot arc. The same thing happens with Tyrion: the new male head of Sansa's House, Robb, is again killed, Tyrion never transforms from his physical "beast" state, and Sansa never falls in love with with him either. The Beauty neither loves nor transforms these Beasts.

This is both an inversion of the "traditional" ending (Type 1) in which the Beast is transformed back into human form by Beauty, and of the traditional Beast himself, for neither Joffrey nor Littlefinger can be classified as Beasts -unless you count their inner beastly self-, and though Tyrion fits in well physically speaking, he doesn't fully fit into the archetype.

I'm beginning to theorise that Sansa is also subverting the Type 3 ending (transformation in perception only) with regards to Sandor Clegane: this is a Beast that will never "transform" into a beautiful prince (it's interesting to note that in some old versions, the Beast's appearance is never described, and in the Psyche myth, Cupid is thought to be a Beast because of what he does, not because of what he looks like, for he's the handsomest of all gods; having Venus as your mummy and Ares as daddy is a big plus in the looks dept. This shows that the Beast is not necessarily always ugly), his scars will never heal and his true nature will never be obvious for the rest because of his reputation, but Sansa was able to see what lay beneath his beastly mask, so in this case the change in his appearance is in perception only, he retains his plain and scarred self.

When I'm done with the symbolism of Psyche's tasks, we'll see how the Type 4 storyline (the heroine must undergo a series of trials) was subverted in Sansa's case.

[Mahaut]

No, I think that's a great observation, especially when you consider the realization we made a couple threads ago that Sansa walks in the footsteps of both her parents - Ned in King's Landing when LF is taking him to see Cat, and her mother in the Eyrie. For those interested in what Mahaut has noted:

Sansa I then Eddard III

Sansa II then Eddard VII

Eddard XI then Sansa III then Eddard XII

after Ned is captured, we have: Arya IV then Sansa IV

Sansa V then Eddard XV

Arya V - Ned's execution, then Bran VII, followed by Sansa VI

Of course, the content of this organization houses some contentious debates, namely about Sansa's responsibility in Ned's death. Outside of that, it would be interesting to discuss the deeper relevance of this juxtaposition, and the parallels between their experiences in KL.

Thanks for the chapters Brashcandy.

Here is also what I observed. Sansa I stands between Catelyn III and Eddard III. This is very similar to Jon I that stands between Eddard I and Catelyn II. I thought it was clever to put Jon between Ned's and Cat's chapters because, being officially Ned's bastard, he's a sore spot in Ned's and Cats' relationship. On the other hand, Sansa is not a bastard. As their chapter's pattern is similar (it's often linked to Ned or Cat) I started to look for their points in common. The first I can think of is bastardy as later in the serie, Sansa poses as Alayne Stone.

Also Catelyn III, Sansa I and Eddard III seem to be strongly related to direwolfes: in Catelyn III, Summer saves Bran's life. In Sansa I, the reader is introduced to Lady and Nymeria attacks Joffrey. Finally, in Eddard III, Ned kills Lady. A lot has been written on Lady's death so I'll try to keep it bref. The direwolf is the Stark's sigil so I was wondering if it wasn't a foreshadowing for some identity's quest. After Ned's death, in order to survive in King's Landing, Sansa somehow denies her Stark's identity by distancing herself from her family and thus "killing" the wolf in her. I guess she does the same in the Vale but sometimes she reminds herself of her true identity: "I am not your daughter, she thought, I am Sansa Stark, Lord Eddard's daughter and Lady Catelyn's, I am the blood of Winterfell". Maybe Sansa's and Jon's patterns are similar because they're both on some identity quest. In Sansa's case it would be more about being able to claim who she truly is.

ETA: Tze's post is amazing :drunk:

[bgona]

Rather interesting that you should mention chess.

Because apparently this booksays that originally the chess queen was actually a vizier (in the polygamous courts of the Middle East and India) and that the influence of powerful queens such as Isabella of Castile made the chess queen the most powerful piece on the board.

Exactly that vizier was at the shatranj, but also it is related to Joan of Arc.

I see significant that the Queen is also known at Spanish as La Dama = The Lady.

[bgona]

Tzen just I want to tell you that your posts is so good. It makes me think a lot.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Tze, your post is wonderful and thought-provoking. I love these threads.

[corseque]

The Beauty and the Beast parallels in this series are the most interesting part to me, so it's great to find a whole thread (and other readers) dedicated to figuring them out. So interesting to read other people's take on it; I look forward to the other upcoming essays.

[Beets]

Rather interesting that you should mention chess.

Because apparently this booksays that originally the chess queen was actually a vizier (in the polygamous courts of the Middle East and India) and that the influence of powerful queens such as Isabella of Castile made the chess queen the most powerful piece on the board.

I'd just like to point out that vizier sounds a lot like Varys to someone searching for possible plot points.

Tze - I am in awe, and bow to your wonderful greatness. That was very, very interesting to read about. The parallels! Dear sweet cupcakes, the parallels!

[Valkyrja]

Just popping in to say...

Wow!!!! to tze's wonderful to post....my jaw is still on the floor. :D

and Welcome to corseque!!! Excellent of you to join us, you write great meta, and I look forward to your contributions to the thread. :D

[bgona]

I'd just like to point out that vizier sounds a lot like Varys to someone searching for possible plot points.

It is an interesant point.

Chess pieces suffers a development with its introducing at European culture. The bishop was the elephant at Chaturanga, sometimes being able to jump. Anyway they were known as messengers or even archers. Finally the piece turn out with the name Bishop (not at Spain that is know as Alfil, neither at France that it is known as Fou = Crazy).

I found relevant that is associated to elephant (an animal associated with government of a city at ADWD as the triad, with a tigger, that is another feline/cat as the lion).

I feel Varys as one that keeps information (as Petyr).

Welcome to corseque!!! Excellent of you to join us, you write great meta, and I look forward to your contributions to the thread. :D

I want also to welcome to Corseque!!!! It is just amazing the idea of having you here!!

[corseque]

[...] and Welcome to corseque!!! Excellent of you to join us, you write great meta, and I look forward to your contributions to the thread. :D

[...] I want also to welcome to Corseque!!!! It is just amazing the idea of having you here!!

Ahhh! Thank you! I wasn't sure if people would know me here. I've wanted to join in before, but there's just so much to read through on this site. It's like jumping in the deep end of the pool! I hope I have anything to add that hasn't been said before ad nauseam.

[Valkyrja]

Ahhh! Thank you! I wasn't sure if people would know me here. I've wanted to join in before, but there's just so much to read through on this site. It's like jumping in the deep end of the pool! I hope I have anything to add that hasn't been said before ad nauseam.

Never fear, we re-hash things all the time as they come up, and with all the different essay projects, sometimes the same aspect of Sansa's arc gets discussed multiple times just in different ways. :)

* And I'm SwiftSnowmane on tumblr, btw. :)

[wonder1859]

Awesome post, tze! :bowdown:

Welcome, corseque! I'm a big fan of your metas and very much looking forward to reading whatever you'd like to contribute. <--- a not so subtle hint.

[corseque]

Never fear, we re-hash things all the time as they come up, and with all the different essay projects, sometimes the same aspect of Sansa's arc gets discussed multiple times just in different ways. :)

* And I'm SwiftSnowmane on tumblr, btw. :)

Then I won't fear to comment! And I knew I recognized your icon! I've been loving your fairy tale posts on tumblr, especially East of the Sun and West of the Moon. They've been a real joy.

[...] Welcome, corseque! I'm a big fan of your metas and very much looking forward to reading whatever you'd like to contribute. <--- a not so subtle hint.

Yes, ma'am. I'll have to muster up my thoughts about Sansa, GRRM, and Beauty and the Beast, then... I think I want to watch the GRRM Beauty and the Beast episodes, too, so I'll have a better grip on understanding that essay when it's written.

I think Sansa actually inverts quite a bit of the "Beauty and the Beast" story, rather than sticking to the traditional arc [...]

Oh, tse, this is such a beautiful, thought-provoking post. Just lovely. This part in particular caught my attention:

Rhaella Targaryen was the beauty here, and Aerys was the beast.

I've ctrl+f'd this series for the word "beast" before, and I was surprised how specifically the word is used in this series. It's used about the direwolves (and dragons) the most often, as they're obviously literal beasts... but things get interesting when the word is used to describe human characters as well. These characters are the only ones who are called "beasts":

• Sandor Clegane
  
• Gregor Clegane
  
• Jaime Lannister
  
• Brienne of Tarth
  
• Tyrion Lannister
  
• Aerys Targaryen
  
• Rorge
  

I was always bewildered by Aerys Targaryen's inclusion in the list of people that GRRM calls "beast" until I read your post.

All of the rest of the characters seem to fit with the Beauty and the Beast theme in some way or another (Jaime and Brienne are yet another deconstruction of the story, both of them the Beast and both of them the Beauty), but I couldn't figure out for the life of me how Aerys fit, or why GRRM would use that word to describe the Mad King when he'd been so careful with it otherwise.

Here are all of the quotes when the word "beast" is used about individual human characters, in case anyone feels curious:

“Aye, and the last of his line as well. The boy would have brought a fine ransom, but what does gold mean to a frothing dog like Gregor Clegane? That beast’s head would make a noble gift for all the people of the realm, I vow.”

—

“The light hurts my eyes. A moment, if you would.” Jaime Lannister had been allowed no razor since the night he was taken in the Whispering Wood, and a shaggy beard covered his face, once so like the queen’s. Glinting gold in the lamplight, the whiskers made him look like some great yellow beast, magnificent even in chains. His unwashed hair fell to his shoulders in ropes and tangles, the clothes were rotting on his body, his face was pale and wasted… and even so, the power and the beauty of the man were still apparent.

—

Renly Baratheon had been more than a king to her. She had loved him since first he came to Tarth on his leisurely lord’s progress, to mark his coming of age. Her father welcomed him with a feast and commanded her to attend; elsewise she would have hidden in her room like some wounded beast.

—

“Ser Gregor has his uses, as did his brother. Every lord has need of a beast from time to time…"

—

Tyrion’s voice was hoarse. “Sansa is no longer yours to torment. Understand that, monster.”

Joffrey sneered. “You’re the monster, Uncle.”

“Am I?” Tyrion cocked his head. “Perhaps you should speak more softly to me, then. Monsters are dangerous beasts, and just now kings seem to be dying like flies.”

—

“Only a beast would harm a little girl.”

—

They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.

—

“Saltpans was the work of some fell beast in human skin.”

—

“My lady, you wear man’s mail, so I shall not spare you these horrors… her breasts had been torn and chewed and eaten, as if by some… cruel beast.”

—

“The Hound is dead, and in any case he never had your Sansa Stark. As for this beast who wears his helm, he will be found and hanged.”

—

“There is nothing good about that helm, nor the men who wore it,” said the red priest. “Sandor Clegane was a man in torment, and Rorge a beast in human skin.”

I found another interesting instance of the word Beast, having to do with Sansa:

“I had a dream that Joffrey would be the one to take the white hart,” she said. It had been more of a wish, actually, but it sounded better to call it a dream. Everyone knew that dreams were prophetic. White harts were supposed to be very rare and magical, and in her heart she knew her gallant prince was worthier than his drunken father.

“A dream? Truly? Did Prince Joffrey just go up to it and touch it with his bare hand and do it no harm?”

“No,” Sansa said. “He shot it with a golden arrow and brought it back for me.” In the songs, the knights never killed magical beasts, they just went up to them and touched them and did them no harm, but she knew Joffrey liked hunting, especially the killing part. Only animals, though. Sansa was certain her prince had no part in murdering Jory and those other poor men; that had been his wicked uncle, the Kingslayer. She knew her father was still angry about that, but it wasn’t fair to blame Joff. That would be like blaming her for something that Arya had done.

Though I'm not sure what the significance is. Here it's used in correlation with Joffrey, and we see Sansa mentally juggling about Joffrey's joy of killing not exactly fitting the role he's supposed to play.

[brashcandy]

Just want to extend my welcome to corseque as well :) We've featured a couple of your metas on the thread before, and it's a pleasure to see you here.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

*snip*

Good stuff!

To back up the thing about Bonifer being all show: The Faith of the Seven seems to be the only non-magic religion (ie with no real power).

Just wanted to say to this that I could not agree more. Every time I see people saying that the Hound is going to fight Robert Strong and it will be an awesome battle, blah, blah blah I just want to reach through the computer screen and shake some sense into these people. The whole point of him being on the quite isle is to get past those feelings of hate for his brother and move beyond that. It would set back his character development to the point of where he was at the beginning of the books if he did this. The only way I could see it happening is if somehow it was to save Sansa and I just don't think the way the character arc is playing out that that will happen. Same for Jaime. He is slowly, painfully divorcing himself from Cersei and to have him go back and end up being her downfall as either her valonqar or through some battle with RS would just be devastating for him.

(Ok as I was typing this Tze just posted another brilliant post with lots to think about.)

Agreed.

[Beets]

Just wanted to say to this that I could not agree more. Every time I see people saying that the Hound is going to fight Robert Strong and it will be an awesome battle, blah, blah blah I just want to reach through the computer screen and shake some sense into these people. The whole point of him being on the quite isle is to get past those feelings of hate for his brother and move beyond that. It would set back his character development to the point of where he was at the beginning of the books if he did this. The only way I could see it happening is if somehow it was to save Sansa and I just don't think the way the character arc is playing out that that will happen. Same for Jaime. He is slowly, painfully divorcing himself from Cersei and to have him go back and end up being her downfall as either her valonqar or through some battle with RS would just be devastating for him.

(Ok as I was typing this Tze just posted another brilliant post with lots to think about.)

We haven't actually seen Sandor's character development yet - there's not even any confirmation that he's alive - so I don't think there's really much besides speculation on that matter at this point.

I agree with you in that Jaime would need some higher motivation to attack Cersei than just "She cheated on me and also she sucks." I'm not sure if he's the valonqar or not, as GRRM could play this any number of ways with any number of characters, but I know that Cersei and Jaime are not entirely done with each other yet. Circa GoT, Jaime would never have attacked Cersei for any reason, but I'm getting less sure as time goes by; I don't believe he'll just run up to her and try to chop her arms off, but I don't think it's too much of a stretch to believe that he'll attack her champion if it means fulfilling a vow or gaining back what he perceives as all the honor that he's lost over the years. There's a large gap between not fighting for someone and actively fighting against them, and while I don't believe Jaime will attempt to destroy her utterly, she's got plans that need foiling and if Jaime sees himself as the only one able to stop them... who knows?

Good stuff!

To back up the thing about Bonifer being all show: The Faith of the Seven seems to be the only non-magic religion (ie with no real power).

That is an interesting point. The Faith needs a zombie mascot of it's own!

No, that's a terrible idea, but I regret not having noticed that yet. It gives you something to think about. Thank you.

[Queen of Winter]

Though I'm not sure what the significance is. Here it's used in correlation with Joffrey, and we see Sansa mentally juggling about Joffrey's joy of killing not exactly fitting the role he's supposed to play.

Not sure who made the initial quote on the White Hart but here are my thoughts (running out the door!)

As to the white hart I think we're seeing a play on Joan "The Fair Maid of Kent", who had been called "the most beautiful woman in all the realm of England, and the most loving."

Quote:

"In 1340, at the age of twelve, Joan entered into a clandestine marriage with Thomas Holland of Upholland, Lancashire without first gaining the royal consent necessary for couples of their rank. The following winter (1340 or 1341), while Holland was overseas, her family forced her to marry William Montacute, son and heir of the first Earl of Salisbury. Joan later averred that she did not disclose her existing marriage with Thomas Holland because she had been afraid that disclosing it would lead to Thomas's execution for treason upon his return. She may also have become convinced that the earlier marriage was invalid.

Several years later, Thomas Holland returned from the Crusades, having made his fortune, and the full story of his earlier relationship with Joan came out. Thomas appealed to the Pope for the return of his wife and confessed the secret marriage to the king. When the Earl of Salisbury discovered that Joan supported Holland’s case, he kept her a prisoner in her own home.

In 1349, Pope Clement VI annulled Joan’s marriage to the Earl and sent her back to Thomas Holland, with whom she lived for the next eleven years. They had four known children (though some sources list five), before Holland died in 1360."

The White Hart is a white stag associated with Herne the Hunter. Herne the Hunter is a ghost, wearing antlers on his head.

"He appears antlered, sometimes beneath the tree on which he was hanged, known as "Herne's Oak", but more often riding his horse, accompanied by other wild huntsmen and the captured souls of those he has encountered on his journey. He is thus a phantom of ill omen, particularly for the country and, specifically, the Royal Family"

So perhaps in the White Hart in Sansa's dream represented Joffrey himself--foreshadowing his death later on.

Or perhaps it's a play on words. If you use "heart" instead of "hart"--I took the white heart to represent Sansa's "pure heart" and her "love" for Joffrey He didn't want her heart. He was cruel and sadistic. His actions against her/her family symbolize the arrow thrust through it. That in effect killing the love she had for him, and he "threw" her heart back at her--her hopes slain.

My thoughts on Joan's marriage in relation to Sansa--well, symbolically --I believe Sandor was the first one to give Sansa his cloak (perhaps that relates to Joan's first marriage--the "secret" one). Tyrion could be viewed as the second marriage, which later became annulled (though we don't know if that will happen in Sansa's case).

EDIT: formatting

EDIT 2: Knew I forgot something! Also, later in life Joan married Edward Prince of Wales (The Black Prince), a cousin. (Though I believe it was said he and Joan loved each other since childhood). He was the first Knight of the Garter (The Order of the Garter). He passed away from a long lasting illness. (Does this remind you of Sweetrobin and Lysa stating she wanted Sansa to marry him? )

[Elba the Intoner]

We haven't actually seen Sandor's character development yet - there's not even any confirmation that he's alive - so I don't think there's really much besides speculation on that matter at this point.

I agree with you in that Jaime would need some higher motivation to attack Cersei than just "She cheated on me and also she sucks." I'm not sure if he's the valonqar or not, as GRRM could play this any number of ways with any number of characters, but I know that Cersei and Jaime are not entirely done with each other yet. Circa GoT, Jaime would never have attacked Cersei for any reason, but I'm getting less sure as time goes by; I don't believe he'll just run up to her and try to chop her arms off, but I don't think it's too much of a stretch to believe that he'll attack her champion if it means fulfilling a vow or gaining back what he perceives as all the honor that he's lost over the years. There's a large gap between not fighting for someone and actively fighting against them, and while I don't believe Jaime will attempt to destroy her utterly, she's got plans that need foiling and if Jaime sees himself as the only one able to stop them... who knows?

Most of us on this thread though have been speculating that Sandor is indeed alive on the QI and that his story isn't done yet so that's where my thought process is coming from. And Sandor did have character development. The Sandor who Arya abandons under the tree at the end of ASOS is not the same man that he was at the beginning of AGOT. But I don't disagree with you that GRRM may write things in a way that either Sandor or Jaime will cause the death of their siblings and if he does I'm sure it will be done in a realistic manner that fits in with the way the story has been going. I should clarify it's the general idea that they'll just go and do it out of revenge because they are so "badass" that drives me nutty. That's simplistic and cliche to me.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I agree with you in that Jaime would need some higher motivation to attack Cersei than just "She cheated on me and also she sucks." I'm not sure if he's the valonqar or not, as GRRM could play this any number of ways with any number of characters, but I know that Cersei and Jaime are not entirely done with each other yet. Circa GoT, Jaime would never have attacked Cersei for any reason, but I'm getting less sure as time goes by; I don't believe he'll just run up to her and try to chop her arms off, but I don't think it's too much of a stretch to believe that he'll attack her champion if it means fulfilling a vow or gaining back what he perceives as all the honor that he's lost over the years. There's a large gap between not fighting for someone and actively fighting against them, and while I don't believe Jaime will attempt to destroy her utterly, she's got plans that need foiling and if Jaime sees himself as the only one able to stop them... who knows?

I'm actually thinking/hoping it will be Tyrion. My reasoning is simple. Everyone acts like she is utter idiot, but she is smarter than most people give her credit for. Sure, she ran the throne poorly, but she did recognize that the Tyrells were one of the biggest threats to the Lannister throne (that Tywin seemed to underestimate). And Tommen might have an ally in the Faith's army which could easily serve as a wild card as his eventual doom comes. Tyrion being the valquar would just be another instance of her being right.

[Lady Lea]

I've missed so much while I've been away in my study cave, but I just wanted to welcome Corseque!!! Yes you finally joined us!!!