From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIII

[Valkyrja]

Most definitely a shame, but I can see why it was cut. This is just a personal theory, but in this case, I think the people who cut it were trying to prove a point. "Look, guys! He didn't even put a bun in the oven, and she's still that desperate! LOOK AT HOW MUCH SHE LOVES HIM, GUYS. LOOK." With a baby in her belly, Psyche'd be fighting for a life for her child. Childless, she's just trying to show her man how much she loves him.

The need to prove one's love is something that also ties in a lot to KL and Sansa's time there. Sansa's got a lot of that sort of thinking towards Joff at the beginning of their relationship, but gets over it when she realizes he's a total jackbag. Post-development Sansa/Alayne is more interested in surviving and protecting the people she cares about than proving anything. She could have proved her love (infatuation? funky-awkward-semi-platonic-whoosiwhatsit?) for the Hound by leaving KL with him, but she didn't, because she knew she'd probably get herself killed if she did, and that it was a safer bet to stay and see what Dontos had been brewing. Rather than proving any sort of emotion for Sandy, she chose a less risky route and takes the road that might lead her back to some sort of family and, you know... not dying. Survival vs. the proving of love. This isn't just a Psyche-centric theme, as it's spread over lots of fairytales, and shows yet again how Sansa's been maturing since her original song-centric personality.

I can totally see what you mean here, especially in relation to the myth discussion. However, I don't know that 'not going' with the Hound was really all that much of a conscious decision for Sansa. She does muse later if her 'decision' not to go with him was 'wise' (and says that she stays up late at night thinking about this), however, in the actual moment of the Blackwater scene, all Sansa does is close her eyes. Yes, this is very symbolic and can be seen to signify that perhaps Sansa was not yet 'ready' to leave/be with the Hound. Nevertheless, she does reach up, *touch* his face, and sing to him. But the closing of her eyes happens because she thinks he is going to kiss her, and that is how she thinks she is supposed to act when about to be kissed. It is Sandor himself who misinterprets her action here as rejection; and after her song, it is he who leaves the room, tearing off his white cloak in disgust at himself as he goes. So, the 'decision' not to leave with the Hound here is not actually a conscious decision on Sansa's part at this point....just imo. :)

[Milady of York]

Milady’s replies, part two:

ELBA

"Mirror Mirror" it's so obvious that Snow White influences a lot of Sansa's story. And Ragnorak comments ont his as well with Cersei as the jealous step mother afraid of another younger and more beautiful woman coming along to take it all away. Also, Joff may not have had a burned cheek, but we all know of another man in Sansa's life who does ;-).

There are folklorists who assert that Snow White, Cinderella and Beauty and the Beast are the three oldest tales in existence, and therefore they have many elements in common, which are more evident in Greek mythology than modern retellings, that’s why I could see the Venus = SN Stepmother parallel. So far, we’ve examined SN and B&B in relation to Sansa’s arc, there’s only Cinderella left.

As an aside, but still related to a certain doggie and his burnt cheek: one of Cupid’s four heads in mainstream Greek mythology was that of a bull. “Muscled like a bull”, anyone? (Yes, Milady knows it’s far-fetched, but let Milady be).

QUEEN CERSEI I

On the one hand, some versions of the tale (particularly the "tarted up French version" by Charles Perrault-- carry some unsavory connotations. That a woman must learn to look past looks, demeanor, and her own desires-- beauty likes the beast but is disgusted, and really desires the handsome, young prince that keeps appearing to her in her dreams-- and only then find true happiness and "transform" her formerly "bestial" (abusive? Cruel? Ugly? Old?) mate. Since the tale was written for well to do young ladies in a time where young girls were basically sold off as teenagers into marriages with often much, much older, more experienced, and not infrequently, very ugly men, Perrault's moral about the importance of a woman looking past appearances, disregarding her innate sexual desire and innate physical disgust, thus made much sense in context.

I, like Lady Lea, am puzzled by your interpretation of Perrault’s tale as a Beauty and the Beast version. To be honest, his is a country folktale from a time previous to Beauty and the Beast, and is a variant of a different tale. It has B&B elements, but so do many, many others; the Aarne-Thompson index registers more than 400-odd tales with that motif, but like Psyche’s there are only 15, Perrault’s isn’t amongst them. We’re talking about different tales, I think.

However, on the other hand, Beauty and the Beast is also a tale in which the female heroine has and exercises massive power-- all through the freedom of choice. In few Perrault tales does a heroine not only demonstrate to save herself, but the ability to save-- and transform-- others. (For instance, in Bluebeard, the Heroine's sister is standing right there in the castle, but both girls are reduced to helplessly waiting for their brothers to arrive.)

Here you’re juxtaposing two different tales again. Your point about the heroine’s power and freedom of choice applies to Beauty and the Beast by Villeneuve and Beaumont, not to Perrault’s. Your interpretations may be registered elsewhere but it is really Griswold’s, the major expert in Beauty and the Beast I know, and he has stated what you say but about Beaumont’s version, not anyone else’s. He also states that this tale is about female sexual awakening - which relates to Sansa’s arc in particular- because by means of the Beast, Belle comes into contact with the erotic and awakens to the possibility of romantic love.

[Beets]

I can totally see what you mean here, especially in relation to the myth discussion. However, I don't know that 'not going' with the Hound was really all that much of a conscious decision for Sansa. She does muse later if her 'decision' not to go with him was 'wise' (and says that she stays up late at night thinking about this), however, in the actually *moment* of the Blackwater scene, all Sansa does is *close her eyes*. Yes, this is very symbolic and can be seen to signify that perhaps Sansa was not 'ready' to leave with the Hound. Nevertheless, she does reach up, *touch* his face, and sing to him. But the closing of her eyes was done because she thinks he is going to kiss her, and that is how she thinks she is supposed to act when about to be kissed. It is Sandor himself who misinterprets her action here as rejection; it is he who leaves the room, tearing off his white cloak in disgust at himself as he goes. So, the 'decision' not to leave with the Hound here is not actually a conscious decision on Sansa's part at this point....just imo. :)

Yeah... I absolutely get where you're coming from. In a situation like that, it makes tons of sense that no decision there was really conscious. For example, even though her Mother hymn has tons of symbolic significance, it was basically the only thing that popped into her head.

I still assign some degree of importance to Sansa's 'decision' not to go with the Hound, though. While he interpreted the shutting of her eyes as rejection, she could have grabbed his arm, asked him to take her with him, leaped out the window into the arms of Fezzig the Giant and ridden away on the white horses they stole from Humperdink's stable, etc. etc (please excuse the Princess Bride off-topic). She didn't make a conscious decision to reject his offer, but she did choose not to try and go with him, though on a very instinctual level.

On a completely different point - you drew attention to the fact that Sansa closes her eyes because she believes she is about to be kissed, and this is how you're supposed to act when kissed. I find it telling that she still applies ideals of courtly romance (or even just everyday highborn life) to Sandor. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - HE'S MORE OF A KNIGHT THAN MOST, WHETHER HE LIKES IT OR NOT. :smug:

[Kittykatknits]

That was K3's post wasn't it? I went looking in the resources, but I don't see it there. Somehow that slipped by. Hopefully Kitty will be able to source it.

That was my post. It was the symbolism of the red rose and the transfer of it between Sandor and Loras. I'll dig it up.

[Valkyrja]

That was my post. It was the symbolism of the red rose and the transfer of it between Sandor and Loras. I'll dig it up.

Thanks, K3, I thought that was yours. :)

[Kittykatknits]

Link to the original post on the red rose:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/69551-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-vi/page__st__200#entry3364084

The original text is below:

Yesterday, I mentioned some connections between Loras and Sandor at the Hand’s tourney as it relates to Sansa. I’m not calling this a theory or pointing towards symbolism yet but felt there was enough her to put in front of everyone. Really, this could also just be coincidence.

During the Hand’s tourney, Sansa tells of receiving a red rose from Loras:

To the other maidens he had given white roses, but the one he plucked for her was red. “Sweet lady,” he said, “no victory is half so beautiful as you.” Sansa took the flower timidly, struck dumb by his gallantry.

Then the next day, we learn that Sansa is still wearing the flower Loras gave her:

Ned saw she was wearing the rose that Ser Loras had given her yesterday. Jory had told him about that as well.

We also have Sansa’s comments about the Hound too; her confident statement that she knew he would win and then she asks her father if he is “the champion now?” as if the fact that he would be the champion is a foregone conclusion. Note that all this is happening while she is wearing a symbol of her coming moon blood and all that it implies.

I’ve read these scenes several times and never thought much about them beyond what I’ve seen discussed here until I saw a passing comment about Cersei calling Sansa’s moonblood a red flower. Sansa’s wearing the flower, a reflection of her more superficial crush on Loras. But, she’s cheering on the Hound and it’s almost as if she doesn’t realize that she prefers one champion over another. This seems to parallel Sansa later in the series, when she realizes her girlish crush with more adult feelings with Sandor.

The other element here is that Loras probably gave that flower to Sansa almost at random, we learn in Storm that he had already forgotten about it. Yet, we could almost say that Loras gave Sansa his favor, as the rose is the sigil of House Tyrell. But, during the Hand’s tourney, Loras hands the victory to Sandor. So, could we also say that he’s giving that favor over to Sandor as well?

As I mentioned earlier, we also have Cersei calling Sansa’s moonblood a red flower. But, we know that Sandor was there the moment that Sansa flowered and she created the unKiss memory from a moment when she will still having her moon blood.

So, is it possible that the actions regarding the red flower at the Hand’s tourney could foreshadow further events and hint that Sandor will be the one to take her maidenhood some day?

[Valkyrja]

Thanks for re-posting this, K3. I love that the combination of the red rose and Sansa's beginning to see beyond appearances kinda-sorta-maybe also links this theory up with the B&B theme. ;)

[Beets]

That was my post. It was the symbolism of the red rose and the transfer of it between Sandor and Loras. I'll dig it up.

Oooh. Score.

And this is better for Sansa anyway. Loras is a Tyrell, and as the Tyrells are shown to be more and more conniving, Loras becomes sneakier and less and less a 'true knight', as Sandor tries to overcome is crazy murderous alcoholism. Besides, Loras is gay, and crushing on gay men seldom ends well. Especially in SoIaF, where everyone dies.

My Renly bb, on both counts...

As an aside, but still related to a certain doggie and his burnt cheek: one of Cupid’s four heads in mainstream Greek mythology was that of a bull. “Muscled like a bull”, anyone? (Yes, Milady knows it’s far-fetched, but let Milady be).

What are the other heads of Cupid? I googled it, but couldn't find anything. I was thinking these might relate to other romantic subplots, as I frantically shipped Gendry with all the available female characters (future!Arya? Hmmm...).

[Milady of York]

BRASHCANDY:

Returning to your observations about how Mya and Randa could play the role of Psyche’s sisters. Now that you’ve explained yourself, I can see your point. I mentioned in my footnotes there was an early interpretation of the myth by Fulgentius, and now that I remember, he said that these sisters were allegories for the flesh and free will that advise Psyche to give in to her curiosity about Eros, who is desire. And also, there’s a psychoanalytic interpretation of the sisters as a positive force, for they contribute to Psyche’s development by pushing her to confront Eros, who keeps his status as an allegory for desire. Yes, I definitely can see Randa as Flesh and Mya as Free Will.

BEETS:

Read the relevant passage in my paper:

In the Orphic version, Eros was double-sexed, had golden wings and four heads: a bull, a lion, a snake and a ram; and had no parents.

[brashcandy]

BRASHCANDY:

Returning to your observations about how Mya and Randa could play the role of Psyche’s sisters. Now that you’ve explained yourself, I can see your point. I mentioned in my footnotes there was an early interpretation of the myth by Fulgentius, and now that I remember, he said that these sisters were allegories for the flesh and free will that advise Psyche to give in to her curiosity about Eros, who is desire. And also, there’s a psychoanalytic interpretation of the sisters as a positive force, for they contribute to Psyche’s development by pushing her to confront Eros, who keeps his status as an allegory for desire. Yes, I definitely can see Randa as Flesh and Mya as Free Will.

That's fascinating! :) Mya definitely advocates for free will when she tells Sansa that a stone is a mountain's daughter, and we know she's been resisting marriage arrangements from Nestor Royce.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

A few comments - and, Milady, once again I am in awe of your research and your erudition! :bowdown:

- With Cupid and Psyche, what started the whole mess was that Psyche was hailed as more beautiful than Venus, and the goddess got jealous that a mere mortal girl would be proclaimed as such. This reminds me of the "younger and more beautiful" Queen that Maggy the Frog told Cersei about, the one who would be her downfall. Cersei is obsessed with Margaery, but I think the younger queen will be Sansa; partly because this slots into the myth, and partly because Cersei is so contemptuous of the "stupid little girl" Sansa that it would be a nice irony. And the ultimate irony would be if the "beauty" wasn't referring to physical beauty, but to the compassion that Sansa has that Cersei lacks.

- Interesting that one version of the C&P myth has the hot oil land on Cupid's face. Now who else has a burned face, hmm? :)

- In the C&P myth, Psyche loses Cupid when she sees his face and he flees. When Sansa touches Sandor's burned cheek for the first time is when he flees.

Now on to Beauty and the Beast - it's one of those tales that has undergone prettying-up down through the ages. I can understand that if a version of a tale was to be a morality lesson for aristocratic girls it had to be presented in a way they could relate to. But I'm thinking of the transformation of Cinderella, for instance, from the original version where the stepsisters amputated their toes to fit in the glass slipper and left trails of blood on the way to the church for their weddings and that is how they were found out! And the stepsisters wound up killed, not forgiven.

I agree that Cersei is a wicked stepmother figure. The "real" mother in these tales is always dead - and even before she died, Catelyn was powerless to help Sansa get away from Cersei. The father in these kind of tales is always kind but ineffectual. Ned was a loving father, and Ned certainly was powerful in his own milieu - the North - but was ultimately ineffectual in King's Landing due to his sense of honor and naivete.

[brashcandy]

Well that downtime was no fun.

I agree that Cersei is a wicked stepmother figure. The "real" mother in these tales is always dead - and even before she died, Catelyn was powerless to help Sansa get away from Cersei. The father in these kind of tales is always kind but ineffectual. Ned was a loving father, and Ned certainly was powerful in his own milieu - the North - but was ultimately ineffectual in King's Landing due to his sense of honor and naivete.

Yes, most times the young maiden figure is always left at the mercy of some wicked, jealous surrogate mother. I think this is why it's even more significant that Sansa has been aligned with the mother archetype from the beginning. She may look like a maiden and still be "innocent," but she has the inner strength and compassion that will help protect her against these destructive women, and provide needed alternatives to their strategies.

[Valkyrja]

Well that downtime was no fun.

Yes, most times the young maiden figure is always left at the mercy of some wicked, jealous surrogate mother. I think this is why it's even more significant that Sansa as been aligned with the mother archetype from the beginning. She may look like a maiden and still be "innocent," but she has the inner strength and compassion that will help protect her against these destructive women, and provide needed alternatives to their strategies.

Glad this place is back up and running....was going through P2P withdrawal. :)

Really good point about the Mother archetype being part of Sansa's inner strength, even from very early on in her storyline. :)

[Lyanna Stark]

However, I don't know that 'not going' with the Hound was really all that much of a conscious decision for Sansa. She does muse later if her 'decision' not to go with him was 'wise' (and says that she stays up late at night thinking about this), however, in the actual moment of the Blackwater scene, all Sansa does is close her eyes. Yes, this is very symbolic and can be seen to signify that perhaps Sansa was not yet 'ready' to leave/be with the Hound. Nevertheless, she does reach up, *touch* his face, and sing to him. But the closing of her eyes happens because she thinks he is going to kiss her, and that is how she thinks she is supposed to act when about to be kissed. It is Sandor himself who misinterprets her action here as rejection; and after her song, it is he who leaves the room, tearing off his white cloak in disgust at himself as he goes. So, the 'decision' not to leave with the Hound here is not actually a conscious decision on Sansa's part at this point....just imo. :)

Oh my goodness, I feel so dumb, I never thought of this. *face palm* It makes sense though since she reasons that he's too strong to fight so she may as well get it over with. It's only logical that she'd act like she assumed she was supposed to, and few people kiss anyone with their eyes wide open (or is this just a prejudice of mine?).

I do agree though that his leaving has the feeling of being unfinished, since Sansa never really says "yes" or "no thanks", the whole thing is left hanging on purpose and Sansa reflects on what it would have been like had she left.

[Beets]

BEETS:

Read the relevant passage in my paper:

Sorry, the awesomeness of it exploded my brain and I'd forgotten that part.

Bull, snake, lion, ram... Viserys is reviled as "less than a snake" by Ser Jorah, bull could be Gendry, I don't recall a ram in-universe... and Westeros is, of course, crawling with Lannister lions. Hmm. I'm actually not too sure if that pertains to the story, as the symbolism isn't finished, but hey - if a ram suddenly appears, I'll get violently to my feet and claim that I called it.

- With Cupid and Psyche, what started the whole mess was that Psyche was hailed as more beautiful than Venus, and the goddess got jealous that a mere mortal girl would be proclaimed as such. This reminds me of the "younger and more beautiful" Queen that Maggy the Frog told Cersei about, the one who would be her downfall. Cersei is obsessed with Margaery, but I think the younger queen will be Sansa; partly because this slots into the myth, and partly because Cersei is so contemptuous of the "stupid little girl" Sansa that it would be a nice irony. And the ultimate irony would be if the "beauty" wasn't referring to physical beauty, but to the compassion that Sansa has that Cersei lacks.

Wouldn't it be so wonderful and fitting if the entire prophecy ends up being anything but what Cersei expected? The valonqar isn't Tyrion, the younger queen is more beautiful inside, not outside... It would be the ultimate comeuppance.

[Elba the Intoner]

Wouldn't it be so wonderful and fitting if the entire prophecy ends up being anything but what Cersei expected? The valonqar isn't Tyrion, the younger queen is more beautiful inside, not outside... It would be the ultimate comeuppance.

Oh I am counting on that being what happens ;-).

[Milady of York]

A few comments - and, Milady, once again I am in awe of your research and your erudition! :bowdown:

- With Cupid and Psyche, what started the whole mess was that Psyche was hailed as more beautiful than Venus, and the goddess got jealous that a mere mortal girl would be proclaimed as such. This reminds me of the "younger and more beautiful" Queen that Maggy the Frog told Cersei about, the one who would be her downfall. Cersei is obsessed with Margaery, but I think the younger queen will be Sansa; partly because this slots into the myth, and partly because Cersei is so contemptuous of the "stupid little girl" Sansa that it would be a nice irony. And the ultimate irony would be if the "beauty" wasn't referring to physical beauty, but to the compassion that Sansa has that Cersei lacks.

- Interesting that one version of the C&P myth has the hot oil land on Cupid's face. Now who else has a burned face, hmm? :)

- In the C&P myth, Psyche loses Cupid when she sees his face and he flees. When Sansa touches Sandor's burned cheek for the first time is when he flees.

I love the parallel you've found!

There's another parallel between Venus and Cersei: incest. She had a long affair with Ares, who was her brother (half-brother according to Homer, though other versions say great-nephew and later Roman versions say nephew... Those Romans!), and he, like Jaime, was handsome and a ruthless warrior whose armour was... can you guess? Right! You did: golden. Both Hesiod in Theogony and Homer in the Iliad describe his armour and chariot as golden.

And they had children born of their adulterous relationship, four boys of whom Cupid was the eldest, the rascal one and Venus' favourite, even if he was feared by everyone else but goddesses Athena and Artemis (who remained unwedded maidens all their lives).

One more interesting itsy bitsy bit: Venus had other lovers whilst still with Ares -she was quite liberal in her affections to say the least-, and she was not faithful to Ares, who in a fit of jealous rage killed her lover. How? By taking the shape of a boar...

You have to admit those ancients liked messed-up plotlines as much as we do, Milady thinks.

[bgona]

Why have disapair the I like bottom?

I wish it will be here!!!

[bgona]

Link to the original post on the red rose:

http://asoiaf.wester...00#entry3364084

The original text is below:

Yesterday, I mentioned some connections between Loras and Sandor at the Hand’s tourney as it relates to Sansa. I’m not calling this a theory or pointing towards symbolism yet but felt there was enough her to put in front of everyone. Really, this could also just be coincidence.

During the Hand’s tourney, Sansa tells of receiving a red rose from Loras:

Then the next day, we learn that Sansa is still wearing the flower Loras gave her:

We also have Sansa’s comments about the Hound too; her confident statement that she knew he would win and then she asks her father if he is “the champion now?” as if the fact that he would be the champion is a foregone conclusion. Note that all this is happening while she is wearing a symbol of her coming moon blood and all that it implies.

I’ve read these scenes several times and never thought much about them beyond what I’ve seen discussed here until I saw a passing comment about Cersei calling Sansa’s moonblood a red flower. Sansa’s wearing the flower, a reflection of her more superficial crush on Loras. But, she’s cheering on the Hound and it’s almost as if she doesn’t realize that she prefers one champion over another. This seems to parallel Sansa later in the series, when she realizes her girlish crush with more adult feelings with Sandor.

The other element here is that Loras probably gave that flower to Sansa almost at random, we learn in Storm that he had already forgotten about it. Yet, we could almost say that Loras gave Sansa his favor, as the rose is the sigil of House Tyrell. But, during the Hand’s tourney, Loras hands the victory to Sandor. So, could we also say that he’s giving that favor over to Sandor as well?

As I mentioned earlier, we also have Cersei calling Sansa’s moonblood a red flower. But, we know that Sandor was there the moment that Sansa flowered and she created the unKiss memory from a moment when she will still having her moon blood.

So, is it possible that the actions regarding the red flower at the Hand’s tourney could foreshadow further events and hint that Sandor will be the one to take her maidenhood some day?

I had forgot that the roses that Loras gives were white and red the one of Sansa. Again a contrast about the red and white colors.

I have this theory that Loras was keeping 2 more roses. He gives that one to Sansa because she was the fiancée of Joffrey. He kepts two more (one for Myrcella and another to Cersei), the same as the two combats that he had to fight to win the tourney.

Another detail: Sandor is wearing a green cloak that day. The day before he wasn´t wearing any cloak and Sansa dress was green. He is wearing that cloak as a favor.

Meanwhile, Sansa is watching his fight with Jaime without even blink. And she knew that Sandor will win to Jaime.

I believe that all that unconcious feelings are already showing up in front of everybody and no one notice anything (not even Sansa and Sandor).

[Ragnorak]

Oh my goodness, I feel so dumb, I never thought of this. *face palm* It makes sense though since she reasons that he's too strong to fight so she may as well get it over with. It's only logical that she'd act like she assumed she was supposed to, and few people kiss anyone with their eyes wide open (or is this just a prejudice of mine?).

I do agree though that his leaving has the feeling of being unfinished, since Sansa never really says "yes" or "no thanks", the whole thing is left hanging on purpose and Sansa reflects on what it would have been like had she left.

Eyes open or closed depends on what you're kissing...

I actually missed the unKiss my first read. More accurately when Sansa remembered the kiss I assumed that I had not paid proper attention and had missed it. The entire scene plays out like an impending kiss and her closing her eyes is a big part of that. So much so that instead of thinking "what is she talking about?" and flipping back to check I easily assumed I had simply missed the final moment because I clearly remembered the build up.