Sansan?

[packfan2able]

Who the heck came up with the sansan theory and why? I don't see it

[Jolene Brown]

Who the heck came up with the sansan theory and why? I don't see it

There is copious evidence in the text for a connection between the characters. Do a search for any thread about the two and you should be able to find it.

[DaveRoid]

Ship it! :P

[Jem]

I would like to say that it was either:

• Fans of Sandor's who feel that the poor guy is hard done by and deserves the reward of having a pretty little girlfriend
  

OR

• People who hate Sansa and think she deserves an ugly scary guy as a punishment for being naive and wanting a handsome husband.
  

But no. It seems that most SanSan shippers are actually fans of both characters. I don't know. I don't get it either.

[Winterfellian]

Personally I didn't see it also when I first read the books so I understand how you feel. Am sure you will get tons of fans detailing it well for you though.

For my part I think is sick and pedophile in soooo many ways that I don't even wanna bother to explain.

[brashcandy]

Who the heck came up with the sansan theory and why? I don't see it

Martin came up with the theory. You should ask him :)

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Personally I didn't see it also when I first read the books so I understand how you feel. Am sure you will get tons of fans detailing it well for you though.

For my part I think is sick and pedophile in soooo many ways that I don't even wanna bother to explain.

Just to point out, people who support SanSan typically don't support adult Sandor and child Sansa. If Sansa met Sandor the next fiction day, and she jumped his bones..... that'd be weird. Most want Sansa to grow up a little more. Also, one thing that is screwed up is the timeskip got cancelled. Thus, any romantic story planned for an 18 year old Sansa will be played out with 13 year old Sansa and must be taken with a grain of salt, regardless of who the man is.

Personally, I use to lean towards Sansan, but not a huge amount. But after my Sandor/Sansa write-up, I noticed a lot more development for it. I'm still not fanatical about it, but I lean heavily towards the idea.

[brashcandy]

Ship it! :P

Let me just say there's a difference between shipping Sandor and Sansa - which implies you actively want something to happen between in the future vs. only viewing it as a theory, where you acknowledge the evidence for their potential as a couple (or that they have a bond) in the future and analyse it to suit. There is a lot of evidence for the theory, so I'm always puzzled by those who claim they don't see it. Martin has said he played with it in the books, so take that for what you will.

Just to point out, people who support SanSan typically don't support adult Sandor and child Sansa. If Sansa met Sandor the next fiction day, and she jumped his bones..... that'd be weird. Most want Sansa to grow up a little more. Also, one thing that is screwed up is the timeskip got cancelled. Thus, any romantic story planned for an 18 year old Sansa will be played out with 13 year old Sansa and must be taken with a grain of salt, regardless of who the man is.

Personally, I use to lean towards Sansan, but not a huge amount. But after my Sandor/Sansa write-up, I noticed a lot more development for it. I'm still not fanatical about it, but I lean heavily towards the idea.

Yeah, recognizing that something is there doesn't mean you think it's a wonderful idea that it happen right now.

[Errant Bard]

Let me just say there's a difference between shipping Sandor and Sansa - which implies you actively want something to happen between in the future vs. only viewing it as a theory, where you acknowledge the evidence for their potential as a couple (or that they have a bond) in the future and analyse it to suit.

No, that's both shipping, as it does include the "squee" factor of imagining them in couple in the future to start with then finding every goddamn line in the text to be in support of what is essentially fanfiction at this point. Also both have similar threads where not squeeing in concert is not welcome.

Now if it limited itself to examining the feelings of both characters in the past and present, it could be called a theory.

I must say, though, now it's relatively calm on the shipping front, you wouldn't believe how annoying it was when it flared up last year. Most of the shippers (as always, in my experience) where women identifying with the girl -Sansa- and finding the romantic interest -Sandor- to be both a dreamboat, a bad boy to change, and a woobie to cuddle; it escalates quickly from there.

This being said, there are a lot of moments in the books where Sandor's attraction to Sansa is shown (though of course it more complicated than "love", there is lust, there is identification, empathy, yearning for her innocence, anger at her innocence, chivalrous ideals and a tad of pedophilia of course) and Sansa's crush is really really straightforward, what with her imagining a kiss she never got, keeping his cloak by her, comparing all men to him... she is young. So it's not like the ship comes out of the blue.

[Jolene Brown]

I must say, though, now it's relatively calm on the shipping front, you wouldn't believe how annoying it was when it flared up last year. Most of the shippers (as always, in my experience) where women identifying with the girl -Sansa- and finding the romantic interest -Sandor- to be both a dreamboat, a bad boy to change, and a woobie to cuddle; it escalates quickly from there.

Or people seeing the connection that the author says he played around with. It's weird how that happens.

[brashcandy]

No, that's both shipping, as it does include the "squee" factor of imagining them in couple in the future to start with then finding every goddamn line in the text to be in support of what is essentially fanfiction at this point. Also both have similar threads where not squeeing in concert is not welcome.

Now if it limited itself to examining the feelings of both characters in the past and present, it could be called a theory.

No it's not both shipping. Shipping them means you want something to happen, full stop. I don't know where you're getting this "squee factor" from, but I can assure you that many people are capable of imagining them as a couple without "squeeing" and/or at least admitting that Martin intends for some kind of reconnection or acknowledgement of that connection.

I must say, though, now it's relatively calm on the shipping front, you wouldn't believe how annoying it was when it flared up last year. Most of the shippers (as always, in my experience) where women identifying with the girl -Sansa- and finding the romantic interest -Sandor- to be both a dreamboat, a bad boy to change, and a woobie to cuddle; it escalates quickly from there.

Spoken like someone who actually has no idea of what exactly people discuss when it comes to that relationship and just decides that it must be juvenile and silly because it relates to a romantic connection.

[Queen Cersei I]

Who the heck came up with the sansan theory and why? I don't see it

Well, it's not as obvious as NedBert, I'lll give you that.

Sansa may dream about kisses that have never happened and have subtle symbolic thoughts about wedding cloaks, but she's not about to toss off a line like, "...muscled like a maiden's fantasy." She may drool after Sandor's physique every bit as much as poor Ned drooled over Robert's-- but unlike dear old dad, she does have some restraint.

[Jolene Brown]

My all-time favorite Ned line referring to Robert is "eyes like mountain lakes." I mean, come on - does anyone talk that way about someone they aren't deeply in love with? It's like he's taking notes for a poem he wants to write about Robert or something. Sansa's poetic "he took a song and left me with nothing but a bloody cloak" comes close though. Like father, like daughter.

[Errant Bard]

Spoken like someone who actually has no idea of what exactly people discuss when it comes to that relationship and just decides that it must be juvenile and silly because it relates to a romantic connection.

Yeah, I mean, it's not like I read the "appreciation" threads and related Sandor/Sansa content that sprouted around for years.

[bgona]

Most of the shippers (as always, in my experience) where women identifying with the girl -Sansa- and finding the romantic interest -Sandor- to be both a dreamboat, a bad boy to change, and a woobie to cuddle; it escalates quickly from there.

This being said, there are a lot of moments in the books where Sandor's attraction to Sansa is shown (though of course it more complicated than "love", there is lust, there is identification, empathy, yearning for her innocence, anger at her innocence, chivalrous ideals and a tad of pedophilia of course) and Sansa's crush is really really straightforward, what with her imagining a kiss she never got, keeping his cloak by her, comparing all men to him... she is young. So it's not like the ship comes out of the blue.

Wait!!!! I am a woman, my fav. is Sandor, not Sansa, and I see them as a relationship (without sex, even Sansa being adult towards Westeros norms, not my norms). God help me!! Something wrong must be inside me!!!! I don´t see Sandor as my fantasy man and I will never want to be near him. But it is my fav. character, followed by Samwell, Davos and, after ADWD, Theon!!

[protar]

I don't ship them per say as I don't see a traumatised little girl and a violent warrior twice her age to be a healthy combination, but there's definitely something there. And I suppose that depending on how long in the future the series ends, we could have a 20 year old Sansa in love with a 35 year old Sandor and after his time on the Quiet Isle he might not be so violent. The burn scars aint a thing. It always ticks me off when people say Sansa can't get with Sandor (or Tyrion for that matter.) because they're hideously scarred. There are plenty of valid reasons to be against that relationship but shallowness is not one.

[Dr. Pepper]

I think what's most attractive about a SanSan-esque ship is the idea is that it's one that she could possibly choose herself without having to consider duty or outside arrangement. Of all the betrothal interests she's had, others have made it for her and they represented a certain duty that was not always aligned with her own desires or best interests. Her parents agreed to a Joffrey match, Olenna suggested the Willas match, she was forced to marry Tyrion, Lysa wanted her to marry Sweetrobin, Littlefinger is suggesting a betrothal to Harry the Heir and also grooming her for his own wants and desires. Though she may have been excited about some of these matches, they were always made with the intent to use her for her status and/or claim.

A Sandor character represents a Sansa who is learning the value of being able to make decisions for herself based on her own goals and interests. He's a character that does not come with baubles and jewels nor is he confined in the typical trappings of power. He doesn't have an army or any sort of means to claim Winterfell through her. Their relationship, violent as it is at times, has never been about claims or duty or political scheming. It's been completely raw and very personal and so different from any relationship she's experienced with others since she left Winterfell.

The Sandor part of the SanSan ship could be anyone, even a castle fool her own age who is handsome and kind. In my understanding of the 'ship', it's more about how it represents the possibility of Sansa's choice, unencumbered by the trappings of society. That's what attracts people to it.

[Mad Madam Mim]

People may not understand it but there is definitely a bond between the two (whether romantic or not), however, it is worth noting that no overt sexual activity has occurred between the two so far. Some people do chose to ship the them in a Beauty and the Beast sort of way and romantises many of Sandor's behaviour but Sandor has too many issues to develop any sort of healthy relationship at this point (holding knives to young girls throats and forcing them to sing = serious issues) however, there is a lot of foreshadowing within the text and their time with eachother in Kl is still pertinent in both their minds which leaves us feeling that something more may happen once Sansa has grown up a bit and Sandor has had his stint in the QI which many feel will address his issues.

It is worth noting however, that although Sandor holds all the physical power in their relationship, Sansa holds the social power so once she grows up and learns to master this, then this will address the power imbalance that many feel there is in this relationship.

[KhaleesiDany]

The Sandor part of the SanSan ship could be anyone, even a castle fool her own age who is handsome and kind. In my understanding of the 'ship', it's more about how it represents the possibility of Sansa's choice, unencumbered by the trappings of society. That's what attracts people to it.

I agree but i think there is something to be said looking at it from Sandor's point of view. He could have fallen in love with any highborn lady that he is supposed to serve or any woman who shows him kindness, but he doesn't because all the people around him are conniving and dishonest. He can't let himself get close to anyone and he only gets close to Sansa because he thinks he can get away with scaring her, and break the ideas she has of knights and chivalry. Instead, Sansa always acts the gentle Lady and this inspires him to be honorable. I think a lot of the attraction comes from seeing them in the traditional roles of a Knight and his Lady (yes, I know Sandor is not a knight, but that only makes it so much sweeter when he acts like one.)

[Nausicaä]

Just to point out, people who support SanSan typically don't support adult Sandor and child Sansa. If Sansa met Sandor the next fiction day, and she jumped his bones..... that'd be weird. Most want Sansa to grow up a little more. Also, one thing that is screwed up is the timeskip got cancelled. Thus, any romantic story planned for an 18 year old Sansa will be played out with 13 year old Sansa and must be taken with a grain of salt, regardless of who the man is.

I disagree. Some things that are appropriate to write about about an 18 year old and their romantic/sex life are not appropriate to write about a 13 year old and if Martin abandoned the time-skip, he should have abandoned those things*. Sansa is not 18, she's 13, so I'm not going to imagine her as much older just so what happens to her is less creepy. If she doesn't reach the age of at least 16-17 during the course of the books and jumps some middle-aged guy's bones when she's 13-15 I sure as hell won't take it with a grain of salt and do mental gymnastics to justify it. Nor will I take it kindly if I see that the author expects it of me. It was his decision to make the characters as young as he did and if it did not work out to make them as old as he planned during the course of the books, then it sucks for him, but that's what he has and that's what he should work with, not imaginary 18 year-old Sansa, 16 year-old Arya, etc.

* In regards to all of the characters. Arya and FM training about how to use her body to get what she wants, for example.