Rise of the High Sparrow

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Aegon has no sister. She died during the sack of king's landing. I've saw littlefinger make a lot of things happen through the use of pawns. He even states so himself. The high septon himself doesn't need to be a pawn. Littlefinger is known for his brothels and such I doubt the high septon would approve of such an immoral man.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Aegon has no sister. She died during the sack of king's landing. I've saw littlefinger make a lot of things happen through the use of pawns. He even states so himself. The high septon himself doesn't need to be a pawn. Littlefinger is known for his brothels and such I doubt the high septon would approve of such an immoral man.

*points at imprisoned Kettleblack*

Is it me or is the rope around LF's neck getting tighter and he doesn't realise it?

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

*points at imprisoned Kettleblack*

Is it me or is the rope around LF's neck getting tighter and he doesn't realise it?

I'm pretty sure he knows Kettleblack is in custody. He doesn't seem unduly worried about it. What will Kettleblack say that will incriminate Baelish?

[the Scorpion Knight]

I'm pretty sure he knows Kettleblack is in custody. He doesn't seem unduly worried about it. What will Kettleblack say that will incriminate Baelish?

does it truly matter? just his name being blurred out under torture might begin an investigation from HIM

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

does it truly matter? just his name being blurred out under torture might begin an investigation from HIM

What is the High Sparrow going to do to the Lord of Harrenhall, Protector of the Vale and Riverlands?

Baelish is thousands of leagues away and he would never have divulged anything worthwhile to Kettleblack.

[Lord Varys]

The rise of the Sparrow Movement goes way too smoothly and quick to make it very likely that Varys had and has nothing to do with it. We have learned throughout the first three novels that Varys has informers and agents in every corner of King's Landing, especially in the pot shops and wine sinks of the very poor. Varys was aware of the stream of sparrows coming to the city since the war began, and it's also not that unlikely that he was also directing/influencing the beggar priests in ACoK and orchestrated the uprising when Myrcella departed for Dorne.

When Varys disappears in ASoS we last see him disguised as a begging brother. This strongly hints that Varys arranged for the sparrows to take over the Faith to cause problems for Cersei, and to ensure that the High Septon would eventually turn towards his king, not the Lannister boy king. The new High Septon is obviously a very smart man, but he was a wandering brother before he became High Septon. It's very unlikely that this man knew how to play Cersei Lannister the way he did just after a couple of months. And this whole sparrow movement is also a little too power hungry for my taste. If they were just, well, war refugees seeking someone who would restore order, they would not end up challenging the Iron Throne in the middle of the capital. This is a risky enterprise to say the least, and I also get the feeling that a man who seems to be as smart as the High Septon would simply not do this so quickly. If the Faith loses this conflict, and the Iron Throne recovers, this might very well the beginning of the end of the High Septon as institution...

[King.In.Yellow]

What I see all over this thread is an underestimation of the Faith, and especially the begging brothers as judges of human intellect and wielders of charisma. Remember septon Meribald, himself a begging brother (in Brienne's POWs), who shows much glibness and street smarts. That's not a portly CoE minister drinking tea and raising funds for a church roof. He has the personality of a televangelist, which happens to be an ecclesiastic version of a major player. I take it as proof that begging brothers are quite adept at the game of thrones, given that it's mostly about people skills.

If we see the series as having parallels in history, let's not forget that the most powerful player in European politics for a very long time was the Pope in Rome. Even modern day popes wield considerable power. There's a book out there, called 'The President, The Prime Minister and The Pope' (not sure about the order) which describes how President Reagan, Prime Minister Thatcher and Pope John Paul II brought down the Soviet Union.

Do not underestimate the Faith, nor the begging brothers and especially don't underestimate the High Sparrow. He's a formidable man.

[Lord Varys]

No one underestimates the High Septon, but we cannot really compare him to the medieval Pope. Not anymore. The early popes stepped into the void of the collapsing Roman Empire in the west and eventually became the rules of Rome. They ruled the Papal States as absolute monarchs until the end of the 19th century (and they continue to rule the Vatican in the same capacity since Mussolini and Hitler recognized them as Heads of an independent 'state').

The High Septon resides in King's Landing, the capital of the Targaryen dynasty and its successor, he is effectively a hostage of the Crown. The Targaryens broke the back of the Faith on the political field, and took away all its worldly authority. Yeah, the new High Septon and Cersei in her stupidity changed that, but this change has to sink in the populace. Right now the Faith Militant is made up completely out of untrained rabble, and a few pious knights. That's not going to be a real advantage if the Faith is going to be challenged within the walls of King's Landing. Yes, the High Septon wields considerable moral power, going against him during a civil war will make whoever does it very bad. But the High Septon really tries to put himself above the Crown. He wants the right to convict members of the royal family (essentially, the King himself would not be save if the Iron Throne is going to let him continue with this!).

Mace Tyrell is not going to let the sparrows convict, let alone execute his only daughter. If the High Septon tries to do this, the Tyrells will attack the Great Sept. Sure, this will be devastating public relations problem for King Tommen, and the Faith is going to declare for another king afterwards, but the nobility is not going along with this whole thing.

[GoldenVale]

What I see all over this thread is an underestimation of the Faith, and especially the begging brothers as judges of human intellect and wielders of charisma. Remember septon Meribald, himself a begging brother (in Brienne's POWs), who shows much glibness and street smarts. That's not a portly CoE minister drinking tea and raising funds for a church roof. He has the personality of a televangelist, which happens to be an ecclesiastic version of a major player. I take it as proof that begging brothers are quite adept at the game of thrones, given that it's mostly about people skills.

If we see the series as having parallels in history, let's not forget that the most powerful player in European politics for a very long time was the Pope in Rome. Even modern day popes wield considerable power. There's a book out there, called 'The President, The Prime Minister and The Pope' (not sure about the order) which describes how President Reagan, Prime Minister Thatcher and Pope John Paul II brought down the Soviet Union.

Do not underestimate the Faith, nor the begging brothers and especially don't underestimate the High Sparrow. He's a formidable man.

No one is underestimating them. In fact I'd say the general consensus is that the new High Sparrow whether he's motivated by his own agenda or he's being manipulated by someone else has definitely shown he intends to make the Faith a larger presence in KL. Hes shown that he's not going to bend to the royals and nobles and that he isn't one to be threatened or bought ( or at least as far as we've seen so far).

The Faith already seems to have the majority of the people in KL supporting them due to the harsh climate of KL before the High Sparrow arrived.

No one underestimates the High Septon, but we cannot really compare him to the medieval Pope. Not anymore. The early popes stepped into the void of the collapsing Roman Empire in the west and eventually became the rules of Rome. They ruled the Papal States as absolute monarchs until the end of the 19th century (and they continue to rule the Vatican in the same capacity since Mussolini and Hitler recognized them as Heads of an independent 'state').

The High Septon resides in King's Landing, the capital of the Targaryen dynasty and its successor, he is effectively a hostage of the Crown. The Targaryens broke the back of the Faith on the political field, and took away all its worldly authority. Yeah, the new High Septon and Cersei in her stupidity changed that, but this change has to sink in the populace. Right now the Faith Militant is made up completely out of untrained rabble, and a few pious knights. That's not going to be a real advantage if the Faith is going to be challenged within the walls of King's Landing. Yes, the High Septon wields considerable moral power, going against him during a civil war will make whoever does it very bad. But the High Septon really tries to put himself above the Crown. He wants the right to convict members of the royal family (essentially, the King himself would not be save if the Iron Throne is going to let him continue with this!).

Mace Tyrell is not going to let the sparrows convict, let alone execute his only daughter. If the High Septon tries to do this, the Tyrells will attack the Great Sept. Sure, this will be devastating public relations problem for King Tommen, and the Faith is going to declare for another king afterwards, but the nobility is not going along with this whole thing.

Kevan pointed out though that because of the delicate nature of the people's relation to the leaders of KL (i.e the council, the king and the past king's treatment of them etc.), dissing the Faith could prove costly.

As to Mace Tyrell. It seems to obvious to me that his mother the Queen of Thorns is the one who seems to make the decisions for the house. And while I'm sure she loves her granddaughter as much as he does she would take a smarter route than "make them".

Besides I really don't think that Margaery is in all that much peril. The accusations against her, made up by Cersei seem to have mostly been refuted thanks to the High Sparrows apparent predilection for just torturing the truth out of people.

In fact the Faith already released her and let her go back to Highgarden due to the fact that most of the evidence against her has already been proven false or is extremely weak. Which is another reason why the Tyrells agreed that she would come back for her trial AND chose trail by judgement and not bothering with trial by combat like Cersei.

[Lord Varys]

Margaery Tyrell still lives in the Red Keep, she did not return to Highgarden. She did not make an appearance in ADwD, but it was mentioned that she is still there, sees Tommen regularly, and prefers to be tried by the Faith rather than choose a trial-by-combat.

Kevan realized that opposing the High Septon right now could backfire on the Iron Throne because there is still considerable unrest in the Realm (Ironborn in the south, sellswords in the east, Stannis in the north), so his policy was to force the Faith back into the strong arms of the Crown eventually. He went along with this whole walk of atonement idea not only because he had not the means to break out Cersei by force, but because he wanted to ensure that Cersei is not going to trouble him afterwards.

The Epilogue showed us that Mace Tyrell is only going along with this whole trial of the Faith thing for Margaery because Kevan insisted on that cause of action. The Tyrells have the numbers in King's Landing to enforce their will upon the High Septon. They already proved that Randyll Tarly demanded the release of Margaery and her cousins. It would be much easier (and much safer for Margaery) to simply declare Margaery's innocence through King Tommen. Mace already suggested that during the council session in the Epilogue. I very much doubt that Mace is going to through with Kevan's plan now that he is dead. Especially since the Regency is now most likely going to him. The Tyrells dominate the Small Council now, and Mace is already Hand of the King.

Lady Olenna may be the brains of House Tyrell, but she is not in King's Landing. Her son is in charge now, and I'm not so sure if he is going to listen to Margaery. And even if he would, we don't really know what Margaery wants. The Faith did not treat her all that gently, an I'm not sure if she is all that eager to put her fate in the hands of the Faith if she can prevent it.

But if King Tommen's administration now enrages and antagonizes the High Septon, it's most likely that the Faith is going to declare for Aegon as soon as he hears about him. We have to keep in mind that the sparrows apparently only went along with King Tommen because the only other known pretender to the Iron Throne was a heretic worshiping a foreign god. It's clear they would never declare for Stannis, but it's also hinted at that they have no love whatsoever for the incestuous Lannister brat on the Iron Throne. The begging brothers preached against the Lannister regime as early as ACoK. They will declare for another king as soon as they can. Especially if it's Prince Rhaegar's precious son. The Targaryens are still remembered and worshiped by the smallfolk.

The reason why I assume that Varys may very well advise the High Septon behind the scenes is the fact that this former wandering septon is simply a too good player. The man knows how to play Cersei again and again, and although I admit that a wandering septon can be quite cunning, it's not so likely that he is as well versed as the High Septon apparently is in legal matters of state and the history of the Targaryen laws against the Faith Militant.

More importantly, the relentlessness with which the High Septon pursues his goal of predominance over the Crown is irritating. A really smart man would go step by step and not putting himself at great risk by arresting two queens which would, of course, make both the Tyrells and the Lannisters not exactly his best friends...

[GoldenVale]

Thanks for the correction, I'd forgotten Margaery was still KL. But she's safe in the hands of her father's men so the point still stands that she's relatively safe and thus no aggressive action against the Faith is necessary. And who knows how much influence she has on her father.

But if King Tommen's administration now enrages and antagonizes the High Septon, it's most likely that the Faith is going to declare for Aegon as soon as he hears about him. We have to keep in mind that the sparrows apparently only went along with King Tommen because the only other known pretender to the Iron Throne was a heretic worshiping a foreign god. It's clear they would never declare for Stannis, but it's also hinted at that they have no love whatsoever for the incestuous Lannister brat on the Iron Throne. The begging brothers preached against the Lannister regime as early as ACoK. They will declare for another king as soon as they can. Especially if it's Prince Rhaegar's precious son. The Targaryens are still remembered and worshiped by the smallfolk.

The reason why I assume that Varys may very well advise the High Septon behind the scenes is the fact that this former wandering septon is simply a too good player. The man knows how to play Cersei again and again, and although I admit that a wandering septon can be quite cunning, it's not so likely that he is as well versed as the High Septon apparently is in legal matters of state and the history of the Targaryen laws against the Faith Militant.

More importantly, the relentlessness with which the High Septon pursues his goal of predominance over the Crown is irritating. A really smart man would go step by step and not putting himself at great risk by arresting two queens which would, of course, make both the Tyrells and the Lannisters not exactly his best friends...

I still dont see why they'd declare for Aegon. As I said before he:

1. Wants to marry his aunt.

2. Aegon himself is born of incest. I hardly think the HS would overlook that.

I doubt the High Sparrow will willingly forgo these things simply because Aegon is Rheagar's brat and keeps the faith. The High Sparrow seems like a fanatic to me. As to the history. It's not common for even small folk to know the history of Westeros. even the small folk seem to remember the big stuff. Everyone knows how Aegon the Conqueror, and his sisters came and took control. Every one knows about the Blackfyre Rebellions and about how the last dragons died so I wouldn't be surprised if they know about Maegor and the Faith. As to the legal matters and knowledge of the law you have to remember that we don't know anything about this man. Where he's from or anything.

Plus he seems to have some sense. While he does have a new army and the small folk on his side he surely can't think declaring for a new king while he sits in the middle of King's Landing. Yes, he has used forced to get where he is now (taking control of the High Septon elections) and he did use torture but he isn't going to launch an all out skirmish in the middle of KL.

His relentless, impatient and insistent ways towards the crown to me are just a characteristic the comes from his fanaticism.

[Lord Varys]

You have to keep in mind that the smallfolk still worships the Targaryens. Remember the old man Arya met in captivity in ACoK who talked about how the old king (Aerys) would have never allowed that misery to happen?

And it's also hinted at that the sparrows are looking/waiting for a savior. They came to KL to demand justice, and took things in their own hands because nobody gave them justice. But if Aegon steps forward as an alternative to Tommen, and if the Tyrells continue to fuck with the High Septon, the Faith will declare Aegon VI the legitimate King of Westeros. GRRM prepared this in AFfC already when he made Ser Bonifer Hasty castellan of Harrenhal - the man is a pious man since Princess Rhaella was forced to marry Aerys, and he most likely will declare for Aegon when he reveals himself.

The High Septon might even retreat to Oldtown if things turn sour, reclaiming his ancient seat at the Starry Sept under the protection of House Hightower.

[jarl the climber]

1. Wants to marry his aunt.

2. Aegon himself is born of incest. I hardly think the HS would overlook that..

Aegon the VI is the son Rhaegar and Elia who were probaly related somehow distantly but were not immeadeate kin to one another. Dany is the product of an incestuous relationship. I think the High Sparrow could get behind Aegon. Still the Tyrells are popular in Kings Landing so its hard to say.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Aegon the VI is the son Rhaegar and Elia who were probaly related somehow distantly but were not immeadeate kin to one another. Dany is the product of an incestuous relationship. I think the High Sparrow could get behind Aegon. Still the Tyrells are popular in Kings Landing so its hard to say.

the decision is imho an easy and predictable one: he going to rally behind the lannisters be cause there's a puppet to groom

[Catacombs]

I HS is varys it would be intresting to see when he crowns Aegon what would Aegon actually do, will he support danny or will there be another dance of dragons.

Even somebody as dense as Cersei would have seen a resemblance between Varys and the HS. I think they are two different guys. But I think Varys is hiding out as one of the Sparrows who came to KL and is part of the HS inner circle. That makes sense as Varys used to disguise himself as a Sparrow.

It will be interesting how the arrival of 'Septa' Tyene Sand will impact the HS and the plans of Varys.

[Top12Gun]

If he DOES turn out to be Varys' puppet, then forget frickin Littlefinger, Varys is a goddamned genius.

[chrisdaw]

If Varys thinks their plan to marry Aegon to Dany will cause problems with the faith he'll wait until after they've opened KL up to his forces and anointed him. I doubt the HS will give a shit though, and it's not likely Aegon will be walking around telling people the dragon queen is coming and he's going to marry her.

He'll probably marry Arianne or Marge (or both and Sansa) before Dany gets to Westeros anyway.

[Lord Varys]

If Varys is behind the rather stunning rise of the Sparrows - and there a few things pinpointing into that direction, for instance the stunning detection of Septon Luceon Frey in a brothel just as he was on the verge of getting enough votes to become High Septon - then it's clear that he has set them up to cause trouble for the Lannister/Tyrell regime, certainly not for Aegon and/or Daenerys.

The High Septon moved himself in a rather precarious position. He has more or less declared war on both great houses behind King Tommen. Kevan was about to reconcile this whole thing, but neither Cersei nor Mace are smart (or humble) enough to bow down to the Faith, at least for the time being. If this conflict escalates, there won't be any chance that the Faith ends up backing King Tommen, since it is virtually impossible that the Faith Militant is going to defeat the Tyrell armies within the city of King's Landing. The High Septon's only chance of keeping his new power (or to avoid a military defeat if fighting starts between the Faith Militant and the Tyrells/Lannisters) is to turn to another pretender. Aegon is perfect for this, since he is (supposed to be) beloved Rhaegar's son. The Targaryens are still admired among the smallfolk, and the Sparrows are smallfolk. More importantly, the Sparrows are looking for a savior, and Aegon will fulfill that need much better than falseborn boy king Tommen 'Baratheon'.

The fact that Tyene Sand is most likely going to play an important role within the Faith in the near future, also pinpoints to the High Septon eventually declaring that Aegon VI Targaryen is the rightful King of Westeros. Even if Dorne proper should at this time have not yet declared for Aegon, Tyene is going to jump on any chance to fuck with the Lannisters and Tyrells, and what better chance is there than to use the authority of the High Septon to undermine Tommen's (and Myrcella's) claim to the Iron Throne? Tyene might even become one of the Septas on the trial judging Margaery (if there is going to be a trial). If that's the case, Margaery most likely is going to found guilty...

The Faith may not approve of incest, but the Targaryens were allowed to practice it for generations, even after all their dragons died. Even a fanatic like the new High Septon would face difficulties if he tried to forbid Aegon to marry his aunt. Especially since that's not directly a first grade incestuous marriage. But in any case, if Aegon and Dany are going to marry, this is not going to happen in the near future. If Varys is behind this whole thing, then the Sparrows are only a means to an end (just as the Dothraki were, back in the Drogo-Dany-plan), and they will be dealt with in due time.

[Lummel]

You put it like that and it is rather interesting to recall what Varys tells Kevan:

A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to was his own own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.

That contrasted with the podgy boy king born of incest and privilege makes for a powerful story to be repeated in the pot houses and amongst the sparrows. Varys is certainly well placed with his Aegon to be able to influence the High Septon.

[chrisdaw]

If Varys is behind this whole thing, then the Sparrows are only a means to an end (just as the Dothraki were, back in the Drogo-Dany-plan), and they will be dealt with in due time.

Or perhaps deal with him given all the hinting.