The Wise Man's Fear IX [Spoilers & Speculation]

[jumbles]

Thanks, two_by_two, that's a detail I never really caught.

I've read parts 12 through 14 of the Tor Reread. Of interest is ArtfulMagpie's comment on the etymological link between "lodestone" and "waystone."

Apparently, "lode" comes from an Old English (Old English, again!) word that means "way" or "course" and the magnetic ore was given that name because it was used in compasses...it was a stone that pointed the way.

I watched the Kickstarter video for Master Lorren's card.

• Lorren has been in charge of the Archives upwards to 20 years
  
• The Archives receives 300 new books a day (though this may have just been a random number he picked)
  
• Lorren is probably in his 50s
  

[thistlepong]

Thanks, jumbles. Stuff like that reminds me I need to update the timeline when I can catch a breath. It's interesting 'cause Lorren apparently succeeded the guy (almost certainly a guy, anyway) who succeeded Tollem and went back to the Tollem system rather than continuing his predecessor's new system or creating his own. And that's kind of in character.

[jumbles]

Thinking about the purpose of the Amyr...

According to Skarpi, Selitos says, "Lord, if I do this thing will I be given the power to avenge the loss of the shining city? Can I confound the plots of Lanre and his Chandrian who killed the innocent and burned my beloved Myr Tariniel? ... I am sorry, but my heart says to me I must try to stop these things before they are done, not wait and punish later. I must refuse, for I cannot forget. But I will oppose him with these faithful Ruach beside me. I see their hearts are pure. We will be called the Amyr in memory of the ruined city. We will confound Lanre and any who follow him. Nothing will prevent us from attaining the greater good."

From this I gather four possible Amyr purposes:

1. Avenge the loss of the shining city
   
   
2. Confound/Oppose Lanre and his Chandrian / any who follow him
   
   
3. Stop these things before they are done, not wait and punish later
   
   
4. Attaining the greater good
   

Numbers 1 and 2 go together really well, as do numbers 3 and 4. Number 1 doesn't seem like it should mesh very well with numbers 3 and 4. Number 2 seems like it could match up with numbers 3 and 4, but only if it doesn't match up with number 1 (or if it just matches up with them for very different reasons).

Lanre says, "I have only the hope of oblivion after everything is gone and the Aleu fall nameless from the sky."

Selitos says, "This my doom upon you. May your face be always held in shadow, black as the toppled towers of my beloved Myr Tariniel. This is my doom upon you. Your own name will be turned against you, that you shall have no peace. This is my doom upon you and all who follow you. May it last until the world ends and the Aleu fall nameless from the sky."

Sounds like the Chandrian may want the world to end.

But Nina says that the Amyr on the pot "looked like he was ready to burn down the whole world" (WMFc35).

If the Amyr oppose the Chandrian, why would they both want to destroy the world? As others have suggested about the Chandrian, "the world" could refer to the mortal world or to the Faen realm. From Nina's point of view, the world would definitely be the mortal world. So the Amyr would want (or at least be willing) to destroy the mortal realm. So maybe the Chandrian want to destroy the Faen realm? If one world was destroyed it would stop the moon from traveling back and forth.

Also, how does one destroy a world? Killing all the people shouldn't help at all, so starting wars shouldn't help either. Unless by ending the world they just mean everyone's dead.

Regarding Aleu, why would they be nameless? Are they already nameless? Would the Aleu falling nameless from the sky be a consequence of the world ending, or is it a second criteria?

Selitos binds Lanre with his blood. I can't help but think this could be related to the "son who brings the blood." If so I don't think opening the door would be a good idea. This also makes me much more willing to believe that the blood could be for sympathy (or alchemy since it's often linked with unbinding).

"Selitos spoke the long name that lay in Lanre's heart, and at the sound of it the sun grew dark and wind tore stones from the mountainside." A book in the Archives lists "the sun going dark in the sky" as a sign of the Chandrian. Also, this could be "a time that must be right."

When Elodin decides to ask Kvothe a question only a namer could answer, why does he ask, "Where does the moon go when it is no longer in our sky?" Why would only a namer be able to answer that? Seems like anyone in the Fae could answer, but I guess he's assuming only humans would be University students. But does that also mean that only namers can travel between the two worlds, and that the answer isn't in the Archives? Does it also mean that we're all namers since we all know the answer? What about that question is naming necessary for?

Vorfelan Rhinata Morie: The desire for knowledge shapes a man. Or something close to that. WMFc13

The translation could have to do with knowers and shapers.

Kvothe thinks it might be Yllish. In Yllish, all "ownership was oddly dual: as if the Chancellor owned his socks, but at the same time the socks somehow also gained ownership of the Chancellor." So the correct translation could be, "A man shapes the desire for knowledge."

But then again, Yllish has no written language, just knots, so how could this be Yllish?

I think, "Man desires to shape knowledge," would be appropriate for this trilogy.

In WMFc147, Kvothe writes a letter to Ambrose pretending to be a woman that Ambrose got pregnant. It really seems random, and nothing has happened because of it. I wouldn't be surprised if Ambrose tries to have a woman killed because of this.

Denna wears her ring all the time, yet she's confused when Kvothe knows what it looks like. Why is this? Other people can see it: Ambrose, the jeweler who fixed it, Devi.

[jumbles]

Some things the Cthaeh does and does not say:

1. It mentions Laurian and Kvothe's mother but does not say they are the same person
   
2. It does not say Kvothe's father's name
   
3. He beats her, you know. Her patron. Not all the time, but often. Sometimes in a temper, but mostly it's a game to him. How far can he go before she cries? How far can he push before she tries to leave and he has to lure her back again? "Temper" can mean, "calmness of mind or emotions; composure," hence why the phrase "lose your temper" means getting angry. Also the Cthaeh doesn't say that the game is seeing when she cries or tries to leave. It could just be musing to itself.
   
4. It didn't say her patron hit her with his walking stick. It didn't say her welts were of his affliction.
   
5. She's trembling on the floor with blood in her mouth and you know what she thinks before the black? You. She thinks of you. It doesn't say the patron causes the blood in her mouth. It doesn't even say the blood is her own. Makes me think of NotWc57, "Her lips were always red, morning and night. As if minutes before you saw her, she had been eating sweet berries, or drinking heart's blood." Also reminds me of WMFc30, "You're the poultice that draws the poison from my heart." Also, why would she think of Kvothe while training or being beaten (if the blood is from training or being beaten)? Is she with her patron because of Kvothe (if this even has to do with Ash)? And "the black" doesn't have to mean she blacked out; it could just mean nighttime, or before she falls asleep.
   
6. Good thing she's used to it by now, isn't it? Otherwise you might have hurt her. Otherwise you just might have broken that poor girl's heart. The way this is worded, the only thing the Cthaeh is saying for sure is that she is used to it. Hurting her or breaking her heart may or may not be true.
   

The Cthaeh sure seems to want Kvothe to hate Master Ash.

[AverageGuy]

She's trembling on the floor with blood in her mouth and you know what she thinks before the black? You. She thinks of you. Good thing she's used to it by now, isn't it?

Yeah, seizures are a pain.

[jumbles]

I just saw that Pat has had a new story published in an anthology called Unfettered. I bought the ebook and read his story. His story is called How Old Holly Came to Be. It is set in the four corners world. First of all, this story is short! It took me no time at all to read. Also, the style is very different from The Kingkiller Chronicle. Just because you love his other books, does not mean you will love this one. In the following spoiler I'm going to say what people/creatures/things are in the story. I'm not going to say what happens though, because the story is so short that would ruin the whole thing.

The main characters are a holly tree and a lady.

The moon is "both light and dark."

A man is with the lady for awhile.

"There were great black wolves, with mouths of fire."

"There were men who had been bent halfway into birds."

There "was a shadow bent to look as if it were a man ... [The earth] sickened and it shrank away from contact with the shadow thing."

EDIT: Inside the next spoiler I'll say what I think some of the previous things may be:

I think the lady is of the Tahl since she sings and the tree moves.

The man "said," "showed," and "sang." This may hint at the University ranks.

The "great black wolves, with mouths of fire" may be draccuses (dracci?) or creatures like the one Lanre killed at the Blac of Drossen Tor.

The men "bent halfway into birds" could be Tehlu and company.

The shadow that looked like a man could be Encanis or Haliax.

Edit contained within the spoiler.

[Slick Mongoose]

Yes, that was fun.

[jumbles]

Just watched an interview from April with Pat Rothfuss. In it, Pat says that book 3 probably won't be released in 2015 or 2013. The tones of voice he used for each of those statements sounded to me like he thought before 2015 and after 2013, so 2014. This part is about 12 minutes into the video.

He also says that one of his rivers was originally called the Borat River.

He says Laniel Young-Again is from Modeg (if you didn't know, he's going to publish a story about her).

In WMFc11, Kvothe signs up for a class on Physiognomy. I finally looked it up, and it's not at all what I would have guessed. Physiognomy is the assessment of a person's character or personality from his outer appearance, especially the face. That ties together with an exchange he has when he meets Meluan: She asks him if he is a turagior. "Turagiors claimed to be able to tell your personality or future from your face, eyes, and the shape of your head. Pure-blooded Vintic superstition. 'I dabble a bit, m'lady.'" How is Physiognomy sufficiently different from what turagiors do, that it's worth studying Physiognomy, but turagiors doing much the same thing is pure-blooded Vintic superstition? Is Kvothe just being a hypocrite here? Is it a hint that Kvothe is a pure-blooded Vint? Also, is "turagior" a real word? I think when I googled it, all I got were Kingkiller Chronicle hits.

manifolded says that in the Spanish edition, Blac of Drossen Tor becomes Nagra de Vessten Tor. Blac and Nagra for black, but they don't know why Vessten. I believe this is more Blac of Drossen Tor being related to Lady Lackless's black dress, since the Spanish for dress is vestido (according to the internet, I don't know Spanish). Does anyone know how that line goes in the Spanish version of the rhyme? If it was changed to fit the rhyme, then I think this is either a massive hint, or Pat is going to extreme lengths to mess with us.

I finally managed to confirm that the Spanish version of the Lackless rhyme does use "vestido" for dress, so I am very confident that the black dress is connected to the Blac of Drossen Tor.

I found translations of the Lackless rhymes in Spanish and French, and the Adem Chandrian poem in Brazilian Portuguese. They'll follow along with translations provided by Google and Bing.

Spanish Lady Lackless

Siete cosas guarda lady Lackless

bajo su negro vestido:

un anillo que no es para ponerse,

una palabra que es casi un gemido.

Junto al cirio de su esposo

hay una puerta sin pomo;

en una caja sin tapa ni candado

encierra Lackless las piedras de su amado.

Ella tiene un secreto guardado,

que sueña en vez de dormir sin tardanza;

por un camino que no es el trillado

lady Lackless lía su adivinanza.

Bing Translation to English

Seven things saves lady Lackless

under his black dress:

a ring which is not to be,

a word that is almost a whimper.

Next to the candle of her husband

There is a door without knob;

in a box without lid lock

Lackless holds his beloved stones.

She has kept secret,

who dreams rather than sleeping without delay;

a path that is not the trite

Lady Lackless bundles its Riddle.

Google Translation to English

Seven Things saves lady Lackless

under her black dress:

a ring is to get,

a word that is almost a groan.

By the candle of her husband

there is a door with no handle;

in a box with no lid or lock

Lackless contains stones of his beloved.

She has a secret kept,

dreaming instead of sleeping without delay;

down a path that is not trite

Lackless lady bundled her riddle

Spanish Lackless Door

Siete cosas hay delante

de la entrada de los Lackless.

Una es un anillo que no se ha usado;

otra,una palabra que se ha invalidado;

otra, un momento que no sea tarde;

otra, una vela que no arde;

otra, un hijo que con la sangre viene;

otra,una puerta que la riada contiene;

otra, algo custodiado celosamente.

Y entonces llega lo que le sobreviene al durmiente.

Bing Translation to English

Seven things there before

the Lackless input.

One is a ring that has not been used;

again, a word that has invalidated;

another, a moment that is not late;

another, a candle that does not burn;

another, a son coming with blood;

another, a door containing the flood;

another, somewhat guarded jealously.

And then becomes what happens you the sleeper.

Google Translation to English

Seven things in front

the input Lackless.

A is a ring that has not been used;

another, a word that has been invalidated;

another, a time not too late;

another, a candle that does not burn;

another, a child with blood coming;

another, a door that contains the flood;

another, something guarded jealously.

And then comes what comes over the sleeper.

French Lady Lackless

Sous sa robe noire sept choses

Dame Lackless a encloses

L'une est un anneau qui n'est pas fait pour être porté

L'autre un cri qui n'est pas fait pour être juré

Près du cierge de son aimé

Est une porte sans poignée

Dans un écrin sans verrou

Lackless a les bijoux de son époux

C'est un secret qu'elle va gardant

Sans dormir mais en rêvant

Sur la route, ce n'est pas pour voyager

Qu'elle veut sa devinette débrouillée

Bing Translation to English

Under her black dress seven things

Lady Lackless encloses

One is a ring that is not to be worn

The other a cry that is not made to be sworn

Near the candle of his loved

Is a door without a handle

In a case without a lock

Lackless has her husband jewelry

It's a secret that she is going to keeping

Without sleep but dreaming

On the road, is not to travel

What she wants its easiest Riddle

Google Translation to English

Under her black dress seven things

Lady Lackless has enclosed

One is a ring that is not made to be worn

The other a cry that is not made to be sworn

Near the candle of his beloved

Is no door handle

In a case without lock

Lackless a jewelry her husband

It's a secret she's keeping

No sleep but dreaming

On the road, this is not to travel

She wants her riddle unraveled

Brazilian Portuguese Chandrian

Cyphus carrega a azulada chama.

Stercus fez-se escravo do ferro.

Ferule tem o olhar negro e sem clemência.

Usnea só vive na decadência.

Dalcenti, do cinzento silêncio, nunca fala.

A pálida Alenta traz a peste.

Por fim, o líder dos sete:

Odiado. Incorrigível. Equilibrado. Insone.

Senhor das sombras, Alaxel é seu nome.

Bing Translation to English

Cyphus carries the blue flame.

Stercus was slave.

Ferule has the black look and without mercy.

Usnea only lives in decay.

Dalcenti, grey silence, never speaks.

The pale Encourages brings the plague.

Finally, the leader of the seven:

Hated. Incorrigible. Balanced. Insomniac.

Lord of the shadows, Alaxel is your name.

Google Translation to English

Cyphus carries a bluish flame.

Stercus made a slave of iron.

Ferule has black eyes and without mercy.

Usnea lives only in the decay.

Dalcenti, the gray silence, never speaking.

The pale Encourages brings the plague.

Finally, the leader of the seven:

Hated. Hopeless. Balanced. Insomniac.

Lord of Shadows, Alaxel is his name.

Dambros says that in Brazilian Portuguese, "Pale Alenta brings the blight" becomes "The pale Alenta brings the pest." Both Bing and Google translate the Brazilian Portuguese back to English as "The pale Encourages brings the plague." So is it plague or pest? Also, it's interesting (though probably coincidence) that Alenta means encourages. In the same post dambros seems to say that Blac of Drossen Tor is unchanged in Brazilian Portuguese.

Some interesting changes in translation. In Spanish, "not for swearing" becomes something like "whimper" or "groan," and "without light" becomes "does not burn." In French, "husband's rocks" becomes husband's jewelry, and "Lackless likes her riddle raveling" becomes something sounding like she wants a riddle solved. In Brazilian Portuguese, Ferule has no mercy, and "Stercus made a slave of iron."

I'm very interested in the Lackless and Chandrian rhymes/poems. Also the translations of "Blac of Drossen Tor." If anyone can add ones that I didn't find or can provide better translations back into English, I'd be grateful.

Edited to eliminate random characters inserted in one of the translations.

[thistlepong]

<snip>and "Lackless likes her riddle raveling" becomes something sounding like she wants a riddle solved.<snip>

This is actually what I took it to mean in English. Merriam Webster's 1.b. for the transitive verb ravel is "to undo the intricacies of; disentangle." It's sort of why I never bought into that line as explicit support for Laurian=Netalia. Good, sure, but not unquestionable.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

My first thought was "Maybe he really just needed to find a word that rhymed with "traveling" and his options were rather limited.

Maybe it just means the Lackless's want the mystery solved... they don't know the answer themselves... their way of saying "Have at it.." They certainly haven't made much progress with whatever it is that Meluan carries around.

[flinn]

I just saw that Pat has had a new story published in an anthology called Unfettered. I bought the ebook and read his story. His story is called How Old Holly Came to Be. It is set in the four corners world. First of all, this story is short! It took me no time at all to read. Also, the style is very different from The Kingkiller Chronicle. Just because you love his other books, does not mean you will love this one. In the following spoiler I'm going to say what people/creatures/things are in the story. I'm not going to say what happens though, because the story is so short that would ruin the whole thing.

The main characters are a holly tree and a lady.

The moon is "both light and dark."

A man is with the lady for awhile.

"There were great black wolves, with mouths of fire."

"There were men who had been bent halfway into birds."

There "was a shadow bent to look as if it were a man ... [The earth] sickened and it shrank away from contact with the shadow thing."

EDIT: Inside the next spoiler I'll say what I think some of the previous things may be:

I think the lady is of the Tahl since she sings and the tree moves.

The man "said," "showed," and "sang." This may hint at the University ranks.

The "great black wolves, with mouths of fire" may be draccuses (dracci?) or creatures like the one Lanre killed at the Blac of Drossen Tor.

The men "bent halfway into birds" could be Tehlu and company.

The shadow that looked like a man could be Encanis or Haliax.

Edit contained within the spoiler.

I will take your word for it. I found that story to be unreadable. I read about 3 paragraphs, thought to myself, Berenstein Bears, and moved on to the next story.

[Slick Mongoose]

It seems designed for people who have been following either these 9 threads or the Tor reread (or preferably both..). I can't imagine what a casual fan would have thought of it, let alone someone who has never read his books.

[thistlepong]

It's barely designed at all. I think that's a problem. flinn's reaction is within a common range. He's talked recently about using short forms to experiment. Other than this one, he mentioned the Bast story lacks, and this is a horrible paraphrase I'm sure, a lot of the craft that's gone into the novels; wondering aloud if he can get by without the stuff that very few folks even notice.

I've been arguing for awhile that the deliberateness of the structure in the novels is part of the charm. Even when it's largely invisible the way a story is told can make a huge difference in its reception. Sentences that begin like, "High among the high rafters," can be forgiven in the right story. Or, better yet, when you do a word repetition like that at the start of every chapter, it can be, I dunno, exalted.

More succinctly, I agree.

[two_by_two]

"Selitos spoke the long name that lay in Lanre's heart, and at the sound of it the sun grew dark and wind tore stones from the mountainside." A book in the Archives lists "the sun going dark in the sky" as a sign of the Chandrian. Also, this could be "a time that must be right."

Vorfelan Rhinata Morie: The desire for knowledge shapes a man. Or something close to that. WMFc13

The translation could have to do with knowers and shapers.

Kvothe thinks it might be Yllish. In Yllish, all "ownership was oddly dual: as if the Chancellor owned his socks, but at the same time the socks somehow also gained ownership of the Chancellor." So the correct translation could be, "A man shapes the desire for knowledge."

But then again, Yllish has no written language, just knots, so how could this be Yllish?

First point - an eclipse? Is that even something that happens in the Four Corners? That would add further credence to "a time that must be right", as lunar eclipses (in our world) happen predictably but irregularly, and the periodicity depends on the synodic month length (cf. Kvothe's entrance exams).

It could be a transliteration of spoken Yllish. Like how you can write ni hao instead of the actual Chinese characters.

[thistlepong]

Woot. I'm not full of scat! This is from Pat's recent blog post about conventions and whatnot.

Here’s my schedule for Gencon as it stands right now, that way you’ll have a much easier time catching me when I’m at the booth, doing a panel, etc.

GenCon Indy

Thursday, August 15th

12-1:45 Signing at the booth

2PM The Art of Storytelling – Moderator ICC Room 245

3PM Dynamic Characters ICC Room 245

5PM

Literary Alchemy

ICC Room 245

[two_by_two]

So I'm working my way through a re-read and I found something interesting.

Chapter Fifty-Eight: Names for Beginning

"That's a dangerous thing to say to a woman," Sovoy said. "Especially this one. She'll have you off to bring her a leaf of the singing tree from the other side of the world."

She leaned back in her chair and looked at me with dangerous eyes. "A leaf of the singing tree," she mused. "That might be a nice thing to have. Would you bring me one?"

"I would," I said, and was surprised to find that it was the truth.

She seemed to consider it, then shook her head playfully. "I couldn't send you journeying so far away. I'll have to save my favor for another day."

I sighed. "So I am left in your debt."

I'm not sure if this has been brought up before, but a leaf of the singing tree? The Tahl, perhaps?

Also it should be noted that, as far as I can remember, they never balance the debt between them (at least not explicitly), meaning Kvothe still owes her a favor. Definitely could be leveraged later on.

[Tears of Lys]

When I read that, my mind went immediately to a tale from the Arabian Nights wherein the Princess' father, IIRC, sets the hero on a quest to bring back a piece of the Singing Tree, a flagon of water from the Golden Fountain (this was to be poured into a basin where it would grow and grow into a magnificent fountain that never overflowed, but played, sparkled, and splashed beautifully), and something else which I can't recall. Might have been a Roc's egg.

But, yeah, now that I think about it, that **could** refer to the Tahl. Good catch.

[thistlepong]

Thanks, ToL, I couldn't place why it sounded familiar. Ultimately I guess I don't think it refers to the Tahl so much as it recalls thr Arabian Nights. It just happens to loosely correlate with the Tahl making the trees dance with their singing.

You find that sort of thing again and again in the story. There's a fable that's essentially a concatenation of three Hans Christian Andersen tales. Prince Gallant (close enough to Valiant) gets a couple mentions. I found this type of, I dunno, referential nod to be a way of inviting the reader in and making hir comfortable.

I suppose I should add a caveat about finding theories in stranger places, though. And I bet there's more to that "debt" conversation than has been discussed. Makes me think of Scot's long con notion.

[two_by_two]

So apparently The Name of the Wind has been optioned for a tv show....

[thistlepong]

He always said he'd prefer television over cinema. This has now been linked in four threads, I think.