The Wise Man's Fear IX [Spoilers & Speculation]

[thistlepong]

Dumb question:

Lanre = Haliax (At least strongly implied according to the Scarpi & Trapis stories),

but does Lanre = Haliax = Encanis? It seems to me that there are too many coincidences/similarities - Encanis destroying 7-ish cities, darkness shrouding his face, etc

Apologies if this has already been discussed and put to bed - but if someone could share with me the generally accepted thinking on this, I'd be grateful.

Short answer: yes with an if.

Long answer: no with a but.

Merihathor, in a long and sort of intense post, put forth that Encanis was the Cthaeh. I always assumed it was Haliax, but lately I've been pounding at my assumptions. I kinda think the Trapis story challenges that notion as much as it confirms it.

[Ninefingers]

Thanks for pointing me to that post - good stuff.

I found two things really compelling: (a) Tehlu placing the iron wheel at the base of the tree, and (B) Encanis using the phrases "my kind" and "your people"

That being said, in my opinion these are an order of magnitude less telling than not one but two mentions of Encanis having a face hidden in shadow.

[jumbles]

but does Lanre = Haliax = Encanis? It seems to me that there are too many coincidences/similarities - Encanis destroying 7-ish cities, darkness shrouding his face, etc

I found two things really compelling: (a) Tehlu placing the iron wheel at the base of the tree, and ( B) Encanis using the phrases "my kind" and "your people"

That being said, in my opinion these are an order of magnitude less telling than not one but two mentions of Encanis having a face hidden in shadow.

Haliax isn't the only Chandrian Encanis shares signs with. Also Ferule and possibly Alenta. He leaves a cold, black frost where he walks, and he kills crops.

[Loslathdos]

Did I say this, or something like it, here before? Whatever. Prolly bears repeating every now and then.

The Kingkiller Chronicle was fourteen years in the writing. Add another four for The Wise Man's Fear, and probably another 2-4 for the final volume. That's a lot of time in which to write and revise a story.

The four books associated with Philip K. Dick's theophany, along with the associated exegesis, were an eight year endeavor. That's a series brimming over with ideas and references with no underlying structure. It's kind of just a struggle to understand an experience.

Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone was seven years in the planning. The whole series a little over seventeen. I doubt it's fashionable to say so around here, and I probably would have scoffed a couple years ago myself, but the plotting and pacing of those novels is extremely satisfying. And the underlying structures and symbol sets are, well, fantastic,

Sure, some of our speculations are undoubtedly epileptic trees off the rails. But I have to reject the notion that we're looking too closely.

I'm not talking about in general, but in my opinion in that specific circumstance you are, =P

[Tears of Lys]

I was reading a portion of Wise Man's Fear, as usual, this morning, and the idea came to me: Suppose Bredon IS Denna's patron. And suppose he IS an Amyr also. Those two things didn't seem to jibe with each other when you consider the flattering song she writes with his encouragement. After all, the Amyr, of all people, would hate the Chandrian. But what if he's doing this to lure Lanre/Haliax out?

When Cinder says to child Kvothe, "Someone's parents have been singing the wrong kind of songs," we know that Arliden and Laurien's song got them killed, but it did bring them out. Now, presumably, Denna's song is the right kind of song. We also know that Denna is, like Kvothe's old troupe, always on the move, making it more difficult for her to be located easily. We also know she's being trained in some sort of magic (or at least think we do - see all the various theories on the braided hair, etc.)

The Amyr are always nattering on about "the greater good," and we have been told they will attempt to achieve this no matter the cost. We've also seen that some Amyr can do horrific things in the name of the greater good. They wouldn't even hesitate to use a young girl like Denna to do their dirty work. If Denna were used in such a manner and it led to her death or serious injury, Kvothe would definitely "kill an angel." And do we know whether Denna is alive in the frame story? I'm not sure.

Bredon likes to play a "beautiful game." it would certainly be a dangerous game, luring out Haliax and the Chandrian.

I wrote this up on the spur of the moment and hadn't researched whether this theory has been posted yet. (Wouldn't be surprised if it had.)

[Nisheeth]

I was reading a portion of Wise Man's Fear, as usual, this morning, and the idea came to me: Suppose Bredon IS Denna's patron. And suppose he IS an Amyr also. Those two things didn't seem to jibe with each other when you consider the flattering song she writes with his encouragement. After all, the Amyr, of all people, would hate the Chandrian. But what if he's doing this to lure Lanre/Haliax out?

When Cinder says to child Kvothe, "Someone's parents have been singing the wrong kind of songs," we know that Arliden and Laurien's song got them killed, but it did bring them out. Now, presumably, Denna's song is the right kind of song. We also know that Denna is, like Kvothe's old troupe, always on the move, making it more difficult for her to be located easily. We also know she's being trained in some sort of magic (or at least think we do - see all the various theories on the braided hair, etc.)

The Amyr are always nattering on about "the greater good," and we have been told they will attempt to achieve this no matter the cost. We've also seen that some Amyr can do horrific things in the name of the greater good. They wouldn't even hesitate to use a young girl like Denna to do their dirty work. If Denna were used in such a manner and it led to her death or serious injury, Kvothe would definitely "kill an angel." And do we know whether Denna is alive in the frame story? I'm not sure.

Bredon likes to play a "beautiful game." it would certainly be a dangerous game, luring out Haliax and the Chandrian.

I wrote this up on the spur of the moment and hadn't researched whether this theory has been posted yet. (Wouldn't be surprised if it had.)

Indeed, we have no confirmation that she is alive in the frame. The thing is, Bast always referred to her in the past tense. But Kvothe begins by referring to her in the present tense, and ten shifts to past. That may not be the best way to judge whether she is alive or not, but that is all we know about her from the frame.

And I don't exactly remember a theory saying that the song might have been a deliberate act to lure the Chandrian.

[JezDynamite]

Indeed, we have no confirmation that she is alive in the frame. The thing is, Bast always referred to her in the past tense. But Kvothe begins by referring to her in the present tense, and ten shifts to past. That may not be the best way to judge whether she is alive or not, but that is all we know about her from the frame.

And I don't exactly remember a theory saying that the song might have been a deliberate act to lure the Chandrian.

We do know that Bast has seen/met Denna once. He says so in NOTW when Kvothe first describes Denna to Chronicler, and Kvothe forgot that Bast saw her (met her?) once.

[Tears of Lys]

But isn't it possible that Bast meets up with Kvothe prior to the event(s) that led to whatever happened in Imre that left the stones blasted?

ETA: In fact, this is most likely, because Kvothe would undoubtedly go on the run and into hiding in Newarre after this incident.

[two_by_two]

But isn't it possible that Bast meets up with Kvothe prior to the event(s) that led to whatever happened in Imre that left the stones blasted?

ETA: In fact, this is most likely, because Kvothe would undoubtedly go on the run and into hiding in Newarre after this incident.

Which begs the question, why did Kvothe not take Denna with him? The only reasonable explanations I can think of are a) she's dead, or B) she's done something that makes Kvothe not trust her anymore (work with the Chandrian perhaps?).

[Tears of Lys]

...OR, consistent with her character so far, because she is an independent sort, she doesn't let Kvothe "take" her anywhere. She's been on her own for a while now. Why wouldn't she stay that way?

Unless she's dead, which I fear may be true.

[thistlepong]

We do know that Bast has seen/met Denna once. He says so in NOTW when Kvothe first describes Denna to Chronicler, and Kvothe forgot that Bast saw her (met her?) once.

“I…I think I understand, Reshi,” Bast said in conciliatory tones. “I’ve seen her too. Once.”

“I’m not saying she wasn’t lovely, Reshi,” Bast said quickly. “She smiled at me. It was…it had a sort of…it went right down into you, if you understand me.”

I dunno how seriously to take tense shifts. Offhand, y'know, without diagramming the whole book, I'd say Pat doesn't care about them. Or, rather, dispenses with any concern over them.

Bast hooks up with Kvothe before the event that sends him into hiding. He's been his student for two years and it's been less than two years since whatever. The two have been in Newarre for a year. The Waystone's been up and running for at least half a year.

...OR, consistent with her character so far, because she is an independent sort, she doesn't let Kvothe "take" her anywhere. She's been on her own for a while now. Why wouldn't she stay that way?

Unless she's dead, which I fear may be true.

I like what you've done with the lure idea. And I really like this bit.

Not the dead bit, the other bit. 'Cause of the tense insensitivity and her apparent absence in the frame it's hard to draw any conclusions about her health. It's even kind of hard to establish her identity. She was writing that song to make her name. Kvothe was sure folk would sing it for a hundred years. He figures Chronicler's heard it... So this read almost like a reveal:

You’ve probably heard it, in fact. Most folk have. She ended up calling it “The Song of Seven Sorrows.” Yes. Denna composed it, and I was the first person to hear it played entire.

[Ninefingers]

Which begs the question, why did Kvothe not take Denna with him? The only reasonable explanations I can think of are a) she's dead, or B) she's done something that makes Kvothe not trust her anymore (work with the Chandrian perhaps?).

I think it's the latter.

Early on Kvothe sums up his life: "I trouped, traveled, loved, lost, trusted, and was betrayed."

My money says that Denna does the betraying, and does so in 10 words.

Elodin's throw-away line late in NOTW is heavy duty foreshadowing, IMO: "There are ten words that will break a strong man's will."

[Nisheeth]

I think it's the latter.

Early on Kvothe sums up his life: "I trouped, traveled, loved, lost, trusted, and was betrayed."

My money says that Denna does the betraying, and does so in 10 words.

Elodin's throw-away line late in NOTW is heavy duty foreshadowing, IMO: "There are ten words that will break a strong man's will."

Wow! I had entirely forgotten about the first part!

For some reason, when I read it the first time, I had that feeling that the betrayal was be Denna as well. But when I read it again, I noticed that there was never a statement on the Betrayer.

[Ninefingers]

There's no statement on the betrayer, but who else could it be?

Pick any other character in the book, and imagine the worst betrayal they could possibly heap on Kvothe. Would it be enough to make him a hermit? I sure can't think of one.

[Nisheeth]

There's no statement on the betrayer, but who else could it be?

Pick any other character in the book, and imagine the worst betrayal they could possibly heap on Kvothe. Would it be enough to make him a hermit? I sure can't think of one.

Someone could betray him into killing Denna for one. Some other developments might happen in the next book that lead to that betrayal.

But still, I agree with you. Its just a feeling I have, but I too believe that Denna is the betrayer.

[thistlepong]

I think it's the latter.

Early on Kvothe sums up his life: "I trouped, traveled, loved, lost, trusted, and was betrayed."

My money says that Denna does the betraying, and does so in 10 words.

Elodin's throw-away line late in NOTW is heavy duty foreshadowing, IMO: "There are ten words that will break a strong man's will."

Someone could betray him into killing Denna for one. Some other developments might happen in the next book that lead to that betrayal.

But still, I agree with you. Its just a feeling I have, but I too believe that Denna is the betrayer.

Something to keep in mind when thinking about who is dead, who Kvothe may or may not kill, and the implications thereof:

“I’ve killed men and things that were more than men. Every one of them deserved it.”

So, y'know, killing Denna could be devastating, sure. On the other hand, maybe not, 'cause even manipulated she'd have had it coming.

What's interesting to me is that Kvothe expresses neither trust nor love toward Denna in the series so far. The late scene with Simmon and Fela suggests he's misunderstanding his own experience of love, which might hint at the "loved, lost." However, no argument can be made that he trusts Denna.

I think a pretty good case can be made for Simmon. I got about halfway through articulating the argument awhile back, before I got distracted by some shiny object. The TL:DR (it's not really that long) version is that Kvothe expresses love, and more importantly trust, to one character in the series. Moreover, beyond stating it directly he demonstrates it.

Fun with ten words: "The whole story falls apart if Lanre isn't the hero."

[Ninefingers]

What's interesting to me is that Kvothe expresses neither trust nor love toward Denna in the series so far. The late scene with Simmon and Fela suggests he's misunderstanding his own experience of love, which might hint at the "loved, lost." However, no argument can be made that he trusts Denna.

I think a pretty good case can be made for Simmon. I got about halfway through articulating the argument awhile back, before I got distracted by some shiny object. The TL:DR (it's not really that long) version is that Kvothe expresses love, and more importantly trust, to one character in the series. Moreover, beyond stating it directly he demonstrates it.

I think a fair argument can be made that he has demonstrated love towards Denna, but it's a slippery thing to define and probably not worth the time we'd spend discussing it.

I do agree that we haven't seen the trust yet, which is probably one of the central plot points of D3. It think it's likely that K & D will consummate the relationship at some point, K will make certain assumptions about what that means to their future, and it will all be dashed by some big reveal. (See any one of 10 theories on Denna's true identity/motivation)

It's been said more than once in the books that getting one's heart's desire turns out not to be what was expected - I think it's a lock that we'll see it again here.

Re: Simmon

You can make the case, but I think Occam's razor applies here. Early on in the frame, K flips out when C says "they say there was a woman". Hard to imagine that she's not the cental reason for the state of things.

[thistlepong]

If you think a fair argument can be made, I sincerely urge you to make it.

It's been said once in the books that one's heart's desire is often not what one expects.

I'm afraid your position drags along on its jaw and belly, lacking legs.

I don't disagree that Denna is central to the story Kvothe's telling, I just doubt she's central to everything in his preamble.

[Ninefingers]

Hmmmm. You seem like you're spoiling for a fight here. If I offended you, my apologies.

In order:

1. In the hunting the draccus episode, Kvothe's actions to me seem like those of someone who is in love. I'm not particularly interested in a semantic discussion on love, so if you think this isn't the case, I'm happy to disagree.

2. Stunned to hear this. Must be me projecting my impressions of the book's themes on to the actual book.

3. Not sure what you're trying to say here.

4. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Nothing is assured (not by a long shot), but I think Denna is the most probable answer to the questions: Loved? Lost? Trusted? Betrayed?

[thistlepong]

No. Not spoiling for a fight. Sincerely, as above, interested in an actual case to be made for love of Denna.

Most folks look at what's presented and see the formula they expect from countless stories, allow that assumption to reverberate back and forth through their reading and thinking, and draw conclusions from it. I noticed that the text was spare with trust and love and wondered why, given that primary assumption. I was as surprised to find Simmon there as you are incredulous about the suggestion.

So yah, Denna makes a good centerpiece for a tragic love story. An, in truth, I believe that's the bulk of what we're getting, particularly when we take into account the stories the author name checks and his comments about what he's doing. I actually think the story turns on the sequence of events around those ten words I posted above.

However, Tears and myself aside, Denna doesn't seem to be a popular character. Some folks despise her. Some find her unreal. Some find her subordinate. Some fault her apparent profession. A fair number hold out hope that Kvothe will, like, get together with someone else.

I don't think that's an accident. She's kept at a distance by Kvothe in the story and by Kvothe as the narrator. And he doesn't trust her, and I don't think he'll come to trust her. So loved, lost? Maybe. Trusted, and was betrayed? Probably not. He'd be a colossal fuck up to trust Denna at this point.