The Power of Melissandre and other Rh'llor followers

[Bad Hound!]

Hi,

First message!

First of all, I am currently reading aSoS part 1 (in my country, it is divided in 2 parts: 1 - Steel & Snow, and 2: Blood & Gold), and basically I am at a point which spooks me out:

Spoiler

in a Davos POV chapter, he sees Stannis use 3 leeches that Melisandre gives him, so that he can "order" 3 deaths: Robb, Balon Greyjoy and Joffrey. I have a feeling these 3 will really die. How spooky is that, has Melisandre got that much power??? Can't wait to find out!!

It looks like followers of Rh'llor have real powers though, as <spoiler> we've also just seen Thoros of Myr resurrect Beric Dondarrion after he kinda lost his fight with the Hound.

So what do you think? Is Rh'llor the real deal? Are the old gods (from the North) and gods from the Faith of The Seven just plain superstitions, and the real gods are R'llor and its opposite the Great Other?

The other question I had was: I am quite a slow reader (mostly due to not having much time to read during the day, I only read at night before going to bed and so can only read about 20-30 pages a night before falling asleep), and I was thinking of using that to pace myself and not have to wait too much for GRRM to release the next book by the time I have finished aDwD. With this in mind, I have yet to read:

- aSoS part 2

- aFfC

- aDwD

When do you think the next one (the Winds of Winter) will be out? My guess is early 2014, does that sound realistic to you? (hard to guess, I know). I'll base my reading pace on that, this basically gives me 6 months for each book I have yet to read.

I love reading all the threads on here, and it's hard to keep the discipline not to read the spoilers.

And just as an aside, the character that fascinates me the most so far is Roose Bolton. I tend to agree with posters who say he has a most important part to play in future books and there's more to him than meets the eyes, his backstory (and Ramsay his bastard) has the potential to be fascinating. It seems to me he is playing a much longer game than the game of thrones that others play. Anyway it's all speculation at this stage. Cheers!

[ManlessFace]

Without going in to spoilers, I'd have to say that I agree R'Hollor is, in fact, the real deal. The seven of Westeros never do a damn thing for anyone. Actually, to me, the seven seem quite similar to the Christian holy trinity, but I don't want to get in to a real religio-philisopical debate. The drowned god is utterly worthless, just a bunch of CPR certified fishmongers calling themselves priests. Mayhaps him of the many faces is worth a bit more than a mummers fart, maybe not. In contrast to the followers of R'Hollor, however, the Old Gods seem to be understood simply as watchers, and most people don't seem to ask much of them, but with the history and magic that once made the children of the forest powerful, perhaps there was a time when the Old Gods were more than creepy tree faces and were capable of a bit more. Anything that comes from the east seems to be more powerfully grounded in wonder and magic, and perhaps R'Hollor is just a facade for these tricks, which could be likely when you consider that the resurgence of the Pyromancers powers, the Warlocks powers and the red priests/priestess powers all followed the emergence of the red comet and the re-birth of dragons. The powers of wargs like the Starks and wildlings who keep the old gods seems to be unaffected whereas the rest of the world is oozing magic from every oraface since Danaerys jumped in the fire. But maybe that's just R'Hollor gearing up for his battle against the Other, or maybe it's just magic in general permeating the world once again.

[clydas]

I believe Rh'llor is not real and the power of his priests is only sorcery, but I'm far from sure.

I hope it is not the case, as it would turn A Song of Ice and Fire into another standard 'good vs evil story' and remove much of its depth.

[SlackBladder]

I agree with the above post.

Sorcery and magic are real in GRRM's world and I think that just like how people assigned forces of nature with Gods IRL, just so people have created superstitions about magic being the power of a certain god. There also instances of the supposed power of the Old Gods, eg. the ghost of High Heart. She claims to draw her predictions from the old gods and they certainly come true.

As for the Seven, their religions seems to look down on sorcery and such. But as a religion it can certainly drive people to extraordinary feats (Baelor the Blessed, the zealous Andal warriors). However it seems to have been made subservient to the state in aGoT's time taking away it's potency

until Cersei's follies of course.

[Bad Hound!]

But how do you guys explain that Stannis just has to say the names "Robb", "Balon", and "Joffrey" as he uses the 3 leeches that Melisandre gives him - and presto! They end up all dead?

This really freaks me out.

We spend chapter after chapter reading about all the events that lead to these characters death, well, especially Robb: the trap carefully laid for the Red Wedding and all the elaborate scheming between Freys, Boltons and Lannisters. It seems like a great conspiracy between these 3 houses.

But I don't see it making sense if it was all ordered by Melisandre / Stannis - how does that work? Anyone else being disturbed by the disconnect here?

[ceramika]

is melisandre's power like that of Beric Dondarion? In ADWD it seems to indicate that she needs neither food nor sustenance. and she muses about the pain and suffering she endured in order to gain her powers.

is she, like beric dondarion a kind of firey equivalent to an Other or a wight?

[ceramika]

i meant food nor sleep.

[Horza]

But how do you guys explain that Stannis just has to say the names "Robb", "Balon", and "Joffrey" as he uses the 3 leeches that Melisandre gives him - and presto! They end up all dead?

This really freaks me out.

We spend chapter after chapter reading about all the events that lead to these characters death, well, especially Robb: the trap carefully laid for the Red Wedding and all the elaborate scheming between Freys, Boltons and Lannisters. It seems like a great conspiracy between these 3 houses.

But I don't see it making sense if it was all ordered by Melisandre / Stannis - how does that work? Anyone else being disturbed by the disconnect here?

This is a little bit of good ol' fashioned hucksterism from Mel.

A number of characters have foreshadowings of Robb, Joffrey and Balon's deaths. Dany gets a premonition of the Red Wedding in the House of the Undying, as does Theon in one of his dreams. The Ghost of High Heart (crazy little old lady Arya meets) fortells all three and more. There's also good ol' Patchface: "Fool's blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye.".

Mel herself isn't averse to the odd bit of clairvoyance, and hence it's a lot more probable that she saw visions of these three deaths and staged the leech-burning to help win back Stannis' confidence in her. This makes a lot more sense than her or Rh'llor having ludicrous powers, as we've already seen limits to what Mel can do - she needs Davos to row her under Storm's End to work shadow magic on Cortnay Penrose, and later in Storm of Swords she doesn't forsee a plot right under her nose.

[The Mountain That Flies]

It's more likely that magic simply exists as a manipulable energy source in the world of Ice and Fire, and one way that happens to be used to channel it is in fire powers. R'hollor as an actual entity doesn't have any concrete proof, just that some of his followers can harness magic. Melissandre herself states she is more powerful at the Wall (which has magic woven into its stones), and multiple people are shown having their powers boosted by Dany/the dragons (the warlocks, that fire trick guy in Quarth, etc.)

[Bad Hound!]

Mel herself isn't averse to the odd bit of clairvoyance, and hence it's a lot more probable that she saw visions of these three deaths and staged the leech-burning to help win back Stannis' confidence in her.

Hi Horza,

I get what you're saying - you're right.

But just on a point of detail, it's Stannis who names the 3 persons he wants dead: how would Melisandre have guessed that he would say the 3 names that she saw in her dreams? Or would Stannis have had premonition dreams too?

[Horza]

But just on a point of detail, it's Stannis who names the 3 persons he wants dead: how would Melisandre have guessed that he would say the 3 names that she saw in her dreams? Or would Stannis have had premonition dreams too?

I think it's possible Stannis hasn't been keeping the fact he wants the three men who have usurped his rightful position dead very close to his chest.

In the chapter in question, Melisandre comes in with the leeches and Stannis doesn't seem in the least suprised, so I think it's safe to say they discussed it off-screen.

[Dannis Baratheon]

There's something really unnatural about R'hllor, when Beric is revived all those times it seems to change him somewhat and he loses the real memories of who he was beforehand

[Thyrza]

Hi folks,

I'm new to this forum, but I've been reading the books for a while (by I've "been" reading I mean reading and re-reading them, especially books I and II). I have the audio-books only at the moment and am considering getting the Kindle editions soon. This should explain my presence on this forum.

I'm almost at the end of a Storm of Swords now and one thing that I've noticed is the gradual -- an insidious -- rise of R'hllor and its/his coterie. We have Melisandre, Thoros, and even Jaqen H'ghar -- who owes deaths to the Red God, also a name of R'hllor. Melisandre has the magic of the Asshai, but note that she is not really alone in this: Thoras sort of duplicates some of her actions: Beric Dondarrion also has a flaming weapon, and Thoras can also occasionally look into the fire for visions of what might come to pass. But I think we are shown at least three interpretations of R'hllor:

-- Melisandre is a sorceress, so she is into the occult part of R'hllor. We might even call it evil to some degree.

-- Thoros is a priest, so what he values is life. He supports Beric, who is at least partly a good character.

-- Jaqen is an assassin, so he sees the Red God as some sort of judge or balance of life and death.

I am not quite sure which of these facets of R'hllor is closer to the truth, and we are all sort of prejudiced against the Asshai because of Mirri Maz Duur and Melisandre. But what I am sensing here is that there is a sort of infiltration of R'hllor's followers in Westeros. Because of the association with fire I have to wonder whether they might be related to Dany's return to Westeros, to dragons, or to some hidden purpose of their own (maybe a profit from the chaos that will follow the slaughter?).

I think the motif of R'hllor is one of the most interesting sub-plotlines to follow at this point anyway.

Cheers to all,

Thyrza