Cogman Talks Inside Game of Thrones, S3

[Ran]

Oierem,

You seem a little confused. I referred to both Bombadil and Fatty Bolger, whose absences pretty much correspond to the very sections you're talking about.

So it doesn't really change my point that LotR: FotR is comparatively more faithful to the novel it is based on than the later films were to those later novels. Compression is always going to happen when adapting from text to screen. But the way you go about doing it is what marks faithfulness or lack of it. FotR streamlined and it remained pretty faithful. The other films also streamlined, but were progressively less faithful.

[oierem]

Oierem,

You seem a little confused. I referred to both Bombadil and Fatty Bolger, whose absences pretty much correspond to the very sections you're talking about.

So it doesn't really change my point that LotR: FotR is comparatively more faithful to the novel it is based on than the later films were to those later novels. Compression is always going to happen when adapting from text to screen. But the way you go about doing it is what marks faithfulness or lack of it. FotR streamlined and it remained pretty faithful. The other films also streamlined, but were progressively less faithful.

Yes, but I meant that the first half of the book is radically changed or omitted in the film: everything from the beginning of the journey (which is very different as well) to Bree, is created from scratch. That's about one third of the novel. No such radical changes have been made to GoT.

[Padraig]

All you're really pointing out is that people have differing opinions.

And recognising this is far better than the proposing that D&D are making changes for laughs. So that's a positive development.

Strictly speaking, Shae shouldn't have been as good looking as Ros but minor point.

D&D have made changes that GRRM really liked (Ned seeing Arya before he died for instance). But given that GRRM doesn't have time to write the episodes, arguing that D&D aren't as good as him gets you nowhere. Unless you'd prefer no adaptation until GRRM is finished with the book series? Otherwise, they are all we have. And based on acclaim for the show, they have done a very good job so far. And they have been more faithful than most adaptations.

You are also jumping from D&D been less talented writers than GRRM to suggesting that their writing is "bad". That's a huge jump to make. Kind of supports my argument that anybody who changes GRRM's work is automatically "bad".

His getting separated from the group led to them going out to find him and then getting caught.

Huh? Jon gets lost and they lose all sense of precaution? In fact, they should have been more cautious after Jon gets lost, given he could have been captured.

Qhorin tells Jon it is his fault because he is trying to fool the Wildlings. While Ygritte been smart doesn't make Jon stupid.

But tbh it wasn't the dragonknapping itself that made no sense, it was that the politics of Qarth made no sense.

That's what I said. People say that Qarth was a total disaster but there were perfectly fine parts. I used the dragonknapping as an example of one of the very reasonable bits. It's main flaw was the ending.

Well to give a couple of my favourite examples they claimed that Jon had no father figures (he has about half a dozen.) and that Cat was directly responsible for Robb sleeping with Talisa.

Hmm. The former is going to be hard to find since that could have happened anytime. I don't have any recollection of it either. In the TV series, Cat's actions did push Robb into sleeping with Talisa. Weren't these supposed to be links that show D&D's lack of understanding?

True, it's just my interpretation and something like tone of voice is incredibly subjective. But do we agree that he sounded uncomfortable in some way?

I can see how you could interpret that he was uncomfortable but who knows the truth. I wouldn't rely on it as great evidence.

However I will just say that I have seen some of those interviews and they're all about things like the colour of horses, or Syrio having hair, which I agree are ridiculous things to complain about.

But I was responding to your point about the "devil is in the details". I said then that it depends on the details. And now it sounds like you agree that it does indeed depend on the details.

I never said that he doesn't care about the larger issues. I did say that he is a lot more understandable about them. For example, most people seem to understand that the Robb book story wouldn't have worked very well on screen. He was too old for that. So they had to think up something else. I think GRRM would definitely understand that argument.

But to say that all of these changes were a result of time and budgetary constraints is ridiculous bordering on delusional. The fact is that D+D have taken creative license with the show in areas.

Can we get some examples here? I think i'll find that we'll agree that a change was required but the change didn't work as well as we might have hoped. That's very different than D&D simply making changes for laughs.

I don't know how you can argue that its an awful adaptation. Sounds like a complete exaggeration again. I thought we'd moved away from that. Awful compared to what??? Or does any change mean it is awful?

[dustyboy316]

The end result of events like the Red and Purple wedding's have to be the same. If not I am going to break my TV.

[dustyboy316]

Oierem,

You seem a little confused. I referred to both Bombadil and Fatty Bolger, whose absences pretty much correspond to the very sections you're talking about.

So it doesn't really change my point that LotR: FotR is comparatively more faithful to the novel it is based on than the later films were to those later novels. Compression is always going to happen when adapting from text to screen. But the way you go about doing it is what marks faithfulness or lack of it. FotR streamlined and it remained pretty faithful. The other films also streamlined, but were progressively less faithful.

Fatty Bolger was the farmer right? They took them meeting him out, but they did show him getting killed by Ringwraiths. I was very upset Bombadil wasn't in the movie.

[oierem]

And recognising this is far better than the proposing that D&D are making changes for laughs. So that's a positive development.

Strictly speaking, Shae shouldn't have been as good looking as Ros but minor point.

D&D have made changes that GRRM really liked (Ned seeing Arya before he died for instance). But given that GRRM doesn't have time to write the episodes, arguing that D&D aren't as good as him gets you nowhere. Unless you'd prefer no adaptation until GRRM is finished with the book series? Otherwise, they are all we have. And based on acclaim for the show, they have done a very good job so far. And they have been more faithful than most adaptations.

You are also jumping from D&D been less talented writers than GRRM to suggesting that their writing is "bad". That's a huge jump to make. Kind of supports my argument that anybody who changes GRRM's work is automatically "bad".

Huh? Jon gets lost and they lose all sense of precaution? In fact, they should have been more cautious after Jon gets lost, given he could have been captured.

Qhorin tells Jon it is his fault because he is trying to fool the Wildlings. While Ygritte been smart doesn't make Jon stupid.

That's what I said. People say that Qarth was a total disaster but there were perfectly fine parts. I used the dragonknapping as an example of one of the very reasonable bits. It's main flaw was the ending.

a complete exaggeration again. I thought we'd moved away from that. Awful compared to what??? Or does any change mean it is awful?

I agree with all your posts abotu this issue. I just wanted to add that, even Martin is not perfect in his writing, and even he makes some mistakes... so it's logical that D&D won't be perfect either.

About Qarth and Jon's story... I loved both for the most part, although at the end, I can see how they were flawed. But the Qarth storyline was very exotic and exciting, specially the beginning of it: episodes 5 and 6 were great on that regard, and the kidnapping of the dragons gave that storyline a real sense of danger (that otherwise wouldn't have). I liked how the storyline was resolved very much (Pyat Pree murdering all those people, the House of the Undying and yes, even the ending... I just couldn't stop to be excited during that last scene... the music helped, though), although I admit it was flawed.

And Jon, again, I enjoyed his scenes with Ygritte very much, both in episodes 6 and 7. I love the book version as well, but I can see that it wouldn't have worked on screen. The only problem I have is that the Qhorin-Jon fight didn't have any buildup to it in the final episode, and it sort of came out of nowhere.

[protar]

There are MANY more changes in Fellowship; basically, the first half of the book is totally different. Not only Tom Bombadill is omited, three entire chapters are omited (chapters 6-8), and another 3 severely shortened and changed (chapters 3-5).

And those changes were GOOD. They helped to streamline the story.

Sure that's good. But imagine if those omitted scenes and chapters were replaced with invented material of PJ's own making. I think we can all agree that cutting things out is a necessity, but inventing new material? Not so much.

[Ran]

Fatty Bolger is the "fifth Hobbit". In earlier drafts, he was going to travel along with Frodo and co., but in the final novel he instead stays in the Shire, staying at Frodo's house in Crickhollow to delay the news of his departure and pass on information to Gandalf if he appeared. He ends up being confronted by a Black Rider or two, as I recall, but survives that experience. He ends up fighting the Ruffians and being imprisoned and starved, and is among the last of the prisoners taken out of the Lockholes.

In any case, dropping him was part of the general story of Frodo's departure from the Shire which was cut down by PJ and co.

[DragonAge93]

Sure that's good. But imagine if those omitted scenes and chapters were replaced with invented material of PJ's own making. I think we can all agree that cutting things out is a necessity, but inventing new material? Not so much.

Well, a lot of scenes were made up by PJ. Legolas surfing down steps, Gimli being changed to comic-relief, the dead army at Pelennor Fields, Aragorn fighting a troll at the Black Gate, and it was originally going to be Sauron he was fighting. Not to mention the other countless scenes he created that a lot of times fell flat.

And if you didn't see my earlier post, he and his writers are butchering The Hobbit, one example being a love story between the dwarf Kili and the elf girl Tauriel, a guard to the Mirkwood king. Now THAT'S disrespecting the author's work.

[protar]

Well, a lot of scenes were made up by PJ. Legolas surfing down steps, Gimli being changed to comic-relief, the dead army at Pelennor Fields, Aragorn fighting a troll at the Black Gate, and it was originally going to be Sauron he was fighting. Not to mention the other countless scenes he created that a lot of times fell flat.

And if you didn't see my earlier post, he and his writers are butchering The Hobbit, one example being a love story between the dwarf Kili and the elf girl Tauriel, a guard to the Mirkwood king. Now THAT'S disrespecting the author's work.

Legolas skateboarding was stupid I agree. I don't really have a problem with putting some comic relief into the film. The books are almost entirely lacking in humour especially later on and that just doesn't fly with modern audiences. The army of the dead at the pelennor fields was if I remember correctly because their actual purpose (which was getting the Corsair ships wasn't it?) was cut from the theatrical release of the film (presumably due to time constraints.) so it was either that or cut them entirely.

And yeah I am not happy with what they're doing to the Hobbit, though I think to truly be able to judge it we'll have to see the finished product.

[oierem]

Sure that's good. But imagine if those omitted scenes and chapters were replaced with invented material of PJ's own making. I think we can all agree that cutting things out is a necessity, but inventing new material? Not so much.

But they were! The beginning of Frodo's journey is totally invented by PJ. And many other examples. You say that you don't have a problem with them, but the truth is that they weren't being faithful.

[Ran]

He basically just cut out time and events and got him from the Shire to Bree more quickly. That's not "totally invented".

[protar]

But they were! The beginning of Frodo's journey is totally invented by PJ. And many other examples. You say that you don't have a problem with them, but the truth is that they weren't being faithful.

What Ran said. Nothing in that segment was invented. PJ simply cut Farmer Maggot, Crick Hollow, the Old Forest, Tom Bombadil, and the Barrows. And he pretty much had to do that unless he wanted to spend an entire film of the hobbits traveling to Riverrun.

[oierem]

What Ran said. Nothing in that segment was invented. PJ simply cut Farmer Maggot, Crick Hollow, the Old Forest, Tom Bombadil, and the Barrows. And he pretty much had to do that unless he wanted to spend an entire film of the hobbits traveling to Riverrun.

So Merry and Pippin bumping into Frodo and Sam is in the books as well, right?

[protar]

So Merry and Pippin bumping into Frodo and Sam is in the books as well, right?

Sure that was invented, but again, time constraints. In the books the only reason Merry and Pippin accompany Frodo is because they're helping him move to Crick Hollow. No Crick Hollow, no reason for them to tag along. So they just made up a contrived bumping into.

[dustyboy316]

Fatty Bolger is the "fifth Hobbit". In earlier drafts, he was going to travel along with Frodo and co., but in the final novel he instead stays in the Shire, staying at Frodo's house in Crickhollow to delay the news of his departure and pass on information to Gandalf if he appeared. He ends up being confronted by a Black Rider or two, as I recall, but survives that experience. He ends up fighting the Ruffians and being imprisoned and starved, and is among the last of the prisoners taken out of the Lockholes.

In any case, dropping him was part of the general story of Frodo's departure from the Shire which was cut down by PJ and co.

Oh yeah. I remember now. I guess I need to re-read those books. I read them when I was like 13 and am now 24 :P.

[Rhaegar Snow]

I for one would love to see every aspect of ASOIF told, every holdfast explored, the story of Inns and brothels. I want to know Eddison Tollet- Dollorus Ed's backstory.

...and more