TYRION IS AERYS' SON

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

the only reason I'm even entertaining this is because I recall something about a Targ having two different colored eyes....??

Aye, Shiera Seastar

In a previous version of these threads someone mentioned that one potentional cause of the eye color issue is chimerism where one fetus absorbs the other in womb. I have no idea how reliable this is though. However, another Targaryen 'Maelys' the cruel was said to be a chimera with an entire second head growing out of his shoulder! I keep hoping Baristan will confirm or deny this, because he's the one who killed Maelys.

[DreamSongs]

Trick of the light? because I remember Sansa describing his hair as black and blond and wiry on their wedding night.

But I can't access the books right now and am probably wrong.

Found it:

From Sansa 3 ASOS on the wedding night:

'Look at him, Sansa told herself, look at your husband, at all of him, Septa Mordane said all men are beautiful, find his beauty, try. She stared at the stunted legs, the swollen brutish brow, the green eye and the black one, the raw stump of his nose and crooked pink scar, the coarse tangle of black and gold hair that passed for his beard.' She then goes on to describe his manhood. She does not mention the hair on top of his head. Somewhere else in the series, Tyrion also describes the gold and black of his beard as a trial--not sure where that is.

[DreamSongs]

Personally, I think it makes more sense for the twins to belong to Aerys. Tyrion and Jaime are so different at the beginning of the series and they are becoming gradually more alike. If Aerys is Jaime's father, that would bring the characters into even more alignment...they would both then be kinslayers.

[Jaime's Wench]

Personally, I think it makes more sense for the twins to belong to Aerys. Tyrion and Jaime are so different at the beginning of the series and they are becoming gradually more alike. If Aerys is Jaime's father, that would bring the characters into even more alignment...they would both then be kinslayers.

Yes... but that would mean Jaime was not be a full Lannister. Sorry. That does not work with my romantic picture of him.

[DreamSongs]

Yes... but that would mean Jaime was not be a full Lannister. Sorry. That does not work with my romantic picture of him.

But he and Brienne could still have little golden haired babies with sapphire eyes! :thumbsup:

[Jaime's Wench]

But he and Brienne could still have little golden haired babies with sapphire eyes! :thumbsup:

Alas, but what if some recessive gene meant they suddenly had violet eyes. THAT WOULD RUIN EVERYTHING!!!!

[Khal GoGo]

The sack of King's Landing and Elia's (admittedly not a true targ) rape- A Lannister always pays his debts. Tywin told Tyrion (or was it Jaime?) that Gregor didn't have orders to kill Elia, but he never mentions rape...

[DreamSongs]

Alas, but what if some recessive gene meant they suddenly had violet eyes. THAT WOULD RUIN EVERYTHING!!!!

Blue sapphire eyes. Except for one. One with straight golden hair and turquoise eyes.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

The sack of King's Landing and Elia's (admittedly not a true targ) rape- A Lannister always pays his debts. Tywin told Tyrion (or was it Jaime?) that Gregor didn't have orders to kill Elia, but he never mentions rape...

As a debt payment, "You raped my wife who I loved above everything so now I'm going to have one of my henchmen rape your daughter in law that you probably don't care about very much", lacks a certain something. On the other hand, Elia took the place that Tywin thought was promised to his daughter, which would be enough provocation for a man like Tywin whether J+A=x or not.

[Light a wight tonight]

I find the idea abhorrent. Mainly because I dislike the Targs generally, making an exception for Maester Aemon. GRRM has a proclivity for sticking us with abhorent scenarios, though, so I can't say it won't be proven true.

How the hell many bastards will we find that Aerys has fathered when all the counting is done? Tyrion, Faegon, the Kettleblacks, and Moonboy, for all I know?

[Jaime's Wench]

Blue sapphire eyes. Except for one. One with straight golden hair and turquoise eyes.

Sapphire blue eyes and curly blonde hair. Strong-limbed, broad chested ... A great amount of honesty and integrity, but a touch too much pride. I fear I may have already created this child of Brienne and Jaime for my own story, lol.

Back to topic...

I see what you're saying about Elia and Gregor. But Tywin would not consider that a debt repaid.

Tywin has always been funny around sex. He buried his head in the sand regarding Jaime and Cersei's incest (nobody is convincing me he didn't know about it). It would be in his character to silently seethe about it.

[Khal GoGo]

As a debt payment, "You raped my wife who I loved above everything so now I'm going to have one of my henchmen rape your daughter in law that you probably don't care about very much", lacks a certain something. On the other hand, Elia took the place that Tywin thought was promised to his daughter, which would be enough provocation for a man like Tywin whether J+A=x or not.

Yeah, I know, in regards to the J+A=T I was just playing Devils advocate. Elia taking Cersei's place is a good point though, I didn't think about that! :P

[Newstar]

The cool thing about the parentage question is that both Tywin and Joanna had blonde hair and green eyes, so any Lannister physical traits for either Jaime/Cersei or Tyrion could be explained away as coming from their mother, if it turns out either Jaime/Cersei and Tyrion are Targs.

The thing about a Jaime/Cersei Targ reveal is that it doesn't add anything to the story, beyond shock value. Jaime and Cersei are on the wane and will likely both be dead soon. Tyrion on the other hand is gearing up to play a big role in the upcoming story. Tyrion being a Targ would be a big deal when it comes to the plot. That tidbit about Aerys and Joanna being mentioned by Barristan, who may very well be in contact with Tyrion very shortly, is very important, I think.

However, another Targaryen 'Maelys' the cruel was said to be a chimera with an entire second head growing out of his shoulder! I keep hoping Baristan will confirm or deny this, because he's the one who killed Maelys.

Tyrion had a dream where he had two heads. Interesting. That's another potential connection to a Targ bastard (aside from the mismatched eyes).

If Aerys is Jaime's father, that would bring the characters into even more alignment...they would both then be kinslayers.

On the other hand, if Aerys is Tyrion's father, they would have killed each other's biological father, as Danelle and others on this thread have pointed out.

More importantly, Tyrion is supposedly doomed because he committed kinslaying (if greyscale doesn't get him first). Aerys being his biological father would be a get-out-of-kinslaying-free card. Not from a legal perspective, obviously (how on Earth would he prove it?), but from a plot/narrative perspective.

No, it is not becoming stale, because Aegon is a fake, and Cersei and Jaime are of course not Targs. That's a ridiculous theory based in its entirety on Cersei madly burning the Tower of the Hand. So Jon and Tyrion are the only 2 unknown Targs.

It does not invalidate Genna's comments, instead, it adds great irony to her words, because it shows that the son that is the closest to Tywin in character, is actually not his son, and implies that Tywin is not all that different from old Mad Aerys, whom he hated.

And lastly, it adds the great irony that the two Lannister brothers - Jaime and Tyrion - ended up killing each other's fathers.

Not to mention all the other hints like Tyrion casting the shadow of a king in Jon's words in book 1, or Tyrion having pale blond hair compared to the Lannister gold, or Tyrion being obsessed with dragons, or the whole story about Aerys lusting after Joanna, or the fact that Tyrion being a Targ will make the dragons like him a heck of a lot once he joins up with Daenerys.

Oh yes, Tyrion is a Targ. There is little doubt about it, in my view.

Pretty much this, although I don't know that I would go as far as to say there is "little" doubt.

[corbon]

Does he? Have you got a quote - I thought his head hair was always described as blond, beard as blond and black.

As others have noted, its definitely "white-blonde". Which is common in normal blonde children such as Tommen, but usually darkens as they develop, just as Tommen's has.

Maekar was described as having white-blonde hair. White-Blonde is also pretty much synonymous with platinum, and very close to silver.

Lannister are golden blonde, wih no adult exceptions.

Trick of the light? because I remember Sansa describing his hair as black and blond and wiry on their wedding night.

But I can't access the books right now and am probably wrong.

Sansa was probably describing his beard. There is zero doubt here, Tyrion has white-blonde hair that is very close to Targaryen colour and not at all Lannister-like.

Just as an example, not that it means anything directly because these are just artists impressions, but lets look at the wiki pictures.

Targaryen Kings: Aegon I, SIlver gold, appears light blonde; Aenys I, hair appears pale-blonde; Maegor I, hair appears pale blonde; Jaehaerys I, white hair (age); Viserys I, silver-gold hair, appears light blonde; Aegon II, appears pale blonde; appears very plae blonde; Daeron I, appears pale blonde; Baelor I, silver-gold, appears light blonde; Viserys II, appears pale blonde; Aegon IV, pale blonde; Daeron II, appears very pale blonde; Aerys I, very plae blonde, Maekar I, white-blonde, looks almost white; Aegon V, beaten gold and silver strand, looks pale blonde; Jaeherys II, appears very pale blonde; Aerys II, appears dirty pale blonde.

Lannisters: Tywin, Golden (yellow) hair; Jaime, golden (yellow) hair; Cersei, golden (yellow) hair, Joffrey, golden (yellow) hair; Myrcella, golden (yellow) hair; Tommen light blonde hair darkening to golden (yellow).

Tyrion Lannister: White-blonde. beard is mix of black (!?) and blonde.

Its very clear that Tyrion has Targ-like hair colour compared to Lannister hair colour. Very clear textually, and even more clear when you visualise it (ignoring the Tyrion pic, since that is of the character portrayed by the actor, not the character written in the books)

[Mumatil]

As Ive said before, it is possible for twins to have different fathers

Ok seriously explain.

[Natalie_S]

TOTAL CRACKPOT: I've also read the heterochromia (different coloured eyes) could mean that Tyrion is a chimera (meaning an individual who is composed of two or more different populations of genetically distinct cells and usually derives from the "fusion" of 2 twin siblings).

So... if it's possible for twins to have different fathers and it's possible for twins to fuse into a single individual, Tyrion could be the son of both Aerys and Tywin?

This is hardcore, I know. :P

[Spinozaad]

It would put an interesting spin on the "all dwarfs are bastards in their fathers' eyes."

But I will put the book away if this happens to be the case. I'd loathe to see another speshul Tawgawyen running around. Not to mention this horrible tendency of all mwagical pwophecies being correct.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Ok seriously explain [how twins can have different fathers].

Fraternal twins like Jaime and Cersei come from two different eggs in a cycle where the woman just produces two (ETA: and in rare cases two different eggs from two different cycles). So they are fertilized by two different sperms, which can easily come from different fathers if the woman sleeps with both of them in the relevant timeframe.

It would put an interesting spin on the "all dwarfs are bastards in their fathers' eyes."

Man, I was drinking coffee! Warn me next time ;-)

[Mumatil]

Fraternal twins like Jaime and Cersei come from two different eggs in a cycle where the woman just produces two (ETA: and in rare cases two different eggs from two different cycles). So they are fertilized by two different sperms, which can easily come from different fathers if the woman sleeps with both of them in the relevant timeframe.

Man, I was drinking coffee! Warn me next time ;-)

Interesting but I doubt Grrm would use something like this.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Yeah, it don't expect Cersei and Jaime to have different fathers either, I just wanted to clarify the possibility.

Call me old fashioned, but when two twins are madly in love and cheating the king to put little bastards on the throne and pulling the whole realm into an abyss and one manipulates the other for years and then he strangles her so that they exit the world together as they entered it together... well, it's just not half as romantic if they're only half-siblings.