Volantis Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 In the chapter where Robb is deciding who is to be his heir, Catelyn comes up with a whole list of distant relatives who probably have never seen Winterfell. And then Robb reminds her about Jon and that he could give a royal decree legitimizing Jon and relieving him of his vows, she goes completely berserk and starts to give a history lesson about the Blackfyres:“Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe.”So? If Robb had named a distant relative from the Vale, that person's children could also be a threat to any child of Robb, right?Catelyn must hate Jon but surely she can see that he is obviously the better choice? Why is she so against it? Is it because Jon isn't of Catelyn's blood. Well, neither are these relatives from the Vale.Or could it be fact that she treated Jon like crap and she is afraid he might return the treatment? Maybe..What do you think?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House_Qesmer Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 I think ASOIAF fans judge Catelyn too harshly. I don't think any fan can relate to her, which makes it hard for us to see it perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goongirl Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 I think it has to do more with Stark pride and honesty. She will always see Jon as that moment when Ned turned from her and the Stark morality. Jon will always be a personal slight against her. But of course if R+L+ Jon, then her pride is restored... Also a good opportunity in the book to talk about the bastard Targs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House_Qesmer Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Bastards are also more prone(according to Westerosi norms) to commit dishonest acts such as treason and other things, being born from lust and unfaithfulness. So Jon doesn't have any reason to be liked by Cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannis Baratheon Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Catelyn can't stand to even look at Jon because it still pains her, so it's more to do with her personal feelings on the matter than anything else. If she was able to look at it from a different perspective she would probably recognize that Jon would be great, considering he's one of the most honourable characters within the series. Catelyn is a strong character but can sometimes be irrational because of her own feelings, like freeing Jaime Lannister against Robb's wishes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Jorah Mormont Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Yes Khaleesi, it would be considered rude to point out the above poster misspelt the name of a major character in the book series Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Jorah Mormont Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Yes, it does seem that comment editing is possible in this realm Khaleesi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannis Baratheon Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Quiet yourself Mormont, funny you should still call yourself Ser after you sold your honour for what lies between a woman's legs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Jorah Mormont Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 No Khaleesi, now would not be an appropriate time to use the phrase 'burn' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannis Baratheon Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 No Khaleesi, now would not be an appropriate time to use the phrase 'burn'Khaaalleeeeeeessiiiiiiiiiii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Nothing is wrong with her, she just understand politics unlike Robb the political doofus who disregards Jon's oath like it's nothing even though it's considered unbreakable and there are no precedents of anyone ever being released from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ffiferoo Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I think the difference between a distant relative being named heir and Jon being legitimized is the idea that the distant relatives will not be Starks, they will merely be the closest thing to Starks, whereas if Jon is legitimized, he will be a Stark. The claim of a distant relative held up against an actual Stark heir wouldn't hold water, but if it were Jon, a legitimized Stark and (as far as Robb and Catelyn believe) the only other living son of Ned, it would be more of a threat to Robb's hypothetical heir by Jeyne. Someone with very recent Stark blood like Jon is much more of a threat, especially when held up as a legitimate Stark, than someone with a different name, coming from a different region of Westeros, and named only because of Robb's will. If Jon were legitimized, he would be a northerner, raised as a Stark, and then bearing the Stark name as well, which I think Catelyn rightly recognizes as much more real a threat to Jeyne and any son she might be carrying. This isn't to say that Jon would be dishonest or try to take over Winterfell if Robb had an heir, but from Catelyn's perspective, it makes sense. There is nothing "wrong" with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zar Lannister Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 In the chapter where Robb is deciding who is to be his heir, Catelyn comes up with a whole list of distant relatives who probably have never seen Winterfell. And then Robb reminds her about Jon and that he could give a royal decree legitimizing Jon and relieving him of his vows, she goes completely berserk and starts to give a history lesson about the Blackfyres:“Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe.” While I do not favor Catelyn in general, her advice to Robb in this matter is "valid given the circumstances". Bastardy is a social stigma. From the Wiki:Men say that bastards are born from lust and lies, grow up more swiftly than other children, and their nature is wanton and treacherous.No. I do not say I think Jon Snow would betray his brother, but Catelyn, based on customary social belief, is concerned on the implications of his legitimization and how it could affect future Stark generations.So? If Robb had named a distant relative from the Vale, that person's children could also be a threat to any child of Robb, right?Catelyn must hate Jon but surely she can see that he is obviously the better choice? Why is she so against it? Is it because Jon isn't of Catelyn's blood. Well, neither are these relatives from the Vale.Or could it be fact that she treated Jon like crap and she is afraid he might return the treatment? Maybe..What do you think??I doubt that the thing in Catelyn's mind was that Jon would lash out at her for her treatment. Lady Stark was cold to him, but never vicious. A distant relative of the Vale is least probable to be of threat to any heirs Robb could sire, since it wouldn't be as easy for this relative from another Kingdom to amass Northern support to overthrow a Stark from Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therustman Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I think it has to do more with Stark pride and honesty. She will always see Jon as that moment when Ned turned from her and the Stark morality. Jon will always be a personal slight against her. But of course if R+L+ Jon, then her pride is restored... Also a good opportunity in the book to talk about the bastard Targs.Jon was concieved (whoever his parents are) before Ned and Catelyn got together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zar Lannister Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Jon was concieved (whoever his parents are) before Ned and Catelyn got together.Was he? iirc Ned married Catelyn before he went to war, so I believe Robb is still his first-born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kingmaker Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Depends on parents, but since Catelyn assumes Ned is Jon's father, Robb is older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LdyStark Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I think ASOIAF fans judge Catelyn too harshly. I don't think any fan can relate to her, which makes it hard for us to see it perspective.I can relate to her. She is one of the only female characters in the book I can relate to - she takes her motto seriously family, duty, honor in that order and believes others should too. And she could have put up with more bastards if they weren't in her sight and brought up with her own children reminding her every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evita mgfs Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I can relate to her. She is one of the only female characters in the book I can relate to - she takes her motto seriously family, duty, honor in that order and believes others should too. And she could have put up with more bastards if they weren't in her sight and brought up with her own children reminding her every day. :bowdown: Good observation, Ldy Stark. It could not have been easy for her with Ned not observing the custom of Westeros and having his bastard fostered out as many other houses did - or they allowed the birth mother to rear them in her home. I also felt Cat's grief over the deaths of her children, and then having to watch her eldest son Robb killed before her eyes, :crying: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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