A + J = T

[Ther Thapphireth]

Also, Rodrik the Reader is bookish as well. Is he a Targaryen too?

Holy crap! Sam is also bookish! AND his dad basically disowns him as a son! Sam Targaryen!!!!!

:lmao:

[Melifeather]

My opinion is that Tyrion is Tywin's son. When Tywin's sister, Genna tells Jaime that Tyrion was Tywin's son, I think that was a factual statement. I think Tyrion's intelligence and military prowess come from Tywin. If any of Tywin's children are not his, Cersei and Jaime are more likely to be Aerys. The "liberties" taken during the wedding could have resulted in the twins. That they are incestuous may be our clue, as the Targaryens were also incestuous. And, it would be ironic if Jaime were not just a Kingslayer but also a kinslayer. And lastly, the ultimate irony, their children's now legitamate claims to the throne.

[ViserionsFire]

This speculation is fascinating and may have merit. But there is a passage where Lady Genna (Tywin's sister) is talking with Jamie about Tywin explaining to him that Tywin had always protected her:

but every little girl needs a big brother to protect her. Tywin was big even when he was little.” She gave a sigh. “Who will protect us now?”

Jamie kissed her cheek. “He left a son.”

“Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth.”

That was a queer remark. “Why should you fear?”

“Jaime,” she said, tugging on his ear, “sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna’s breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there’s some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear the cloak . . .

but

Tyrion

is Tywin’s son, not you

. I said so once to your father’s face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years.”

Who would know more about the hidden events within the Lannister's than Tywin's little sister? This passage tells more than just who Tryion's father was. This passage is also why I don't think Tyrion is Targaryen.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

His pubes aside the book says his hair is so blonde it's almost white. It is known.

I only read that the one time. It did catch me as odd. But it was in a certain light so I don't find it to be a major detail. I'm pretty sure the same thing was said about his siblings in certain light too.

[Men in their cups say...]

His hair is being directly compared to Jaime/Cersei's so I think this holds more weight than people give it credit for and I think that its a very intentional of GRRM to never mention it again.

The hair quote is on page 51 of Game of Thrones

[kephv]

Tommen's hair is also so blonde it's almost white. Means nothing.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Whoa good thread, and welcome to the forums Cups. BTW there is an edit button if u wanna add a small comment to a post FYI.

I had stuff to add but saw it covered upthread mainly that Shiera had mismatched eyes as well (the only other character besides Tyrion w/ that trait?) and the similarities somewhat between BR and Tyrion.

It basically always struck me as strange that BR supported the Targ Dynasty when he himself was a great bastard and should by all rights support the Blackfyre rebellion. The same can be said of Tyrion who by all accounts is treated like an outcast and black sheep of the family but shows undying loyalty to them in KL. This rings esp true if he is also a Targ bastard.

As to the Genna comments I don't see why people throw that out as evidence against. It's literally as ambiguous as "you are not my son" in that we can all interpret that differently. When she says Tyrion is Tywin's son I don't think it's based on the fact that she literally stayed by Joanna's side from the time of conception until the birth never letting her out of her sight, or that the Maesters whipped up a DNA test for her to be sure... She is simply saying that Tyrion has Tywin's traits, but what son (who's been shunned by a cold father all of his life) doesn't strive to emulate their father? I equate this Genna account to a "Ned and the fishwife" story.

I'm still on the fence about whether or not he is but as pointed out upthread there is plenty of evidence/foreshadowing.

BTW I never got the "Snarling in the midst of it all" part of Moquorro's prophecy. I googled snarl just to ensure i had it right, and it is like an angry bared teeth growling type of face. WHY IS HE SNARLING?! WIll he be angry with Dany, or does it describe his current anger at the world? :dunno:

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Whoa good thread, and welcome to the forums Cups. BTW there is an edit button if u wanna add a small comment to a post FYI.

I had stuff to add but saw it covered upthread mainly that Shiera had mismatched eyes as well (the only other character besides Tyrion w/ that trait?) and the similarities somewhat between BR and Tyrion.

It basically always struck me as strange that BR supported the Targ Dynasty when he himself was a great bastard and should by all rights support the Blackfyre rebellion. The same can be said of Tyrion who by all accounts is treated like an outcast and black sheep of the family but shows undying loyalty to them in KL. This rings esp true if he is also a Targ bastard.

As to the Genna comments I don't see why people throw that out as evidence against. It's literally as ambiguous as "you are not my son" in that we can all interpret that differently. When she says Tyrion is Tywin's son I don't think it's based on the fact that she literally stayed by Joanna's side from the time of conception until the birth never letting her out of her sight, or that the Maesters whipped up a DNA test for her to be sure... She is simply saying that Tyrion has Tywin's traits, but what son (who's been shunned by a cold father all of his life) doesn't strive to emulate their father? I equate this Genna account to a "Ned and the fishwife" story.

I'm still on the fence about whether or not he is but as pointed out upthread there is plenty of evidence/foreshadowing.

BTW I never got the "Snarling in the midst of it all" part of Moquorro's prophecy. I googled snarl just to ensure i had it right, and it is like an angry bared teeth growling type of face. WHY IS HE SNARLING?! WIll he be angry with Dany, or does it describe his current anger at the world? :dunno:

I completely agree Plus I find it so awesome that jamie killed tyrion's father. And tyrion killed jamie's. There is an awesome parallel there that seems very martinesque

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

I completely agree Plus I find it so awesome that jamie killed tyrion's father. And tyrion killed jamie's. There is an awesome parallel there that seems very martinesque

Yes! Exactly right, also to those who say it totally messes up the Tyrion/Tywin dynamic I say it only makes it more complex. If Tyrion is given a revelation about his parentage say by Barristen Selmy, it would turn his world upside-down. The brother he loved killed his actual father, the father he strived to gain acceptance from his entire life is not his father!

Also if Dany found out he was her half-brother that would be interesting as well.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Yes! Exactly right, also to those who say it totally messes up the Tyrion/Tywin dynamic I say it only makes it more complex. If Tyrion is given a revelation about his parentage say by Barristen Selmy, it would turn his world upside-down. The brother he loved killed his actual father, the father he strived to gain acceptance from his entire life is not his father!

Also if Dany found out he was her half-brother that would be interesting as well.

Yepp I think Martin could be very clever in making tyrion have a revelation and then change his outlook on life because of the changes that learning his parentage would bring about. It really does enhance his twisted daddy issues imo. It just seems odd out of all the people aerys truly cared for it was tyrion's mother. Ever since tyrion said he used to play at being a lost targaryen prince I questioned his parentage. It just seems that there are a lot of clues that he could be the son of aerys. Its definitely not something to ignore as far as the story goes. Tyrion does seem like a bit of a mix between a lannister and a targaryen. With his facination with dragons. I think a lot of people have respect for tywin's characters and find that tyrion not being his son would make him not as capable as tywin. But I think its a good thing, tyrion seems to be a lot more alive than tywin's icy glares and silient repremanding attitude. Tyrion seemed to emulate tywin and gerrion. If he finds out he is not tywin's son he will regret the way he tried to be his father. It will tip his world upside down but in the end it will give him an epiphany it will light his way and make him realize what his purpose is.

[Melifeather]

Whoa good thread, and welcome to the forums Cups. BTW there is an edit button if u wanna add a small comment to a post FYI.

I had stuff to add but saw it covered upthread mainly that Shiera had mismatched eyes as well (the only other character besides Tyrion w/ that trait?) and the similarities somewhat between BR and Tyrion.

It basically always struck me as strange that BR supported the Targ Dynasty when he himself was a great bastard and should by all rights support the Blackfyre rebellion. The same can be said of Tyrion who by all accounts is treated like an outcast and black sheep of the family but shows undying loyalty to them in KL. This rings esp true if he is also a Targ bastard.

As to the Genna comments I don't see why people throw that out as evidence against. It's literally as ambiguous as "you are not my son" in that we can all interpret that differently. When she says Tyrion is Tywin's son I don't think it's based on the fact that she literally stayed by Joanna's side from the time of conception until the birth never letting her out of her sight, or that the Maesters whipped up a DNA test for her to be sure... She is simply saying that Tyrion has Tywin's traits, but what son (who's been shunned by a cold father all of his life) doesn't strive to emulate their father? I equate this Genna account to a "Ned and the fishwife" story.

I'm still on the fence about whether or not he is but as pointed out upthread there is plenty of evidence/foreshadowing.

BTW I never got the "Snarling in the midst of it all" part of Moquorro's prophecy. I googled snarl just to ensure i had it right, and it is like an angry bared teeth growling type of face. WHY IS HE SNARLING?! WIll he be angry with Dany, or does it describe his current anger at the world? :dunno:

The wiki links the characters in paranthases :

Dragons old (Maester Aemon) and young (Daenerys), true and false, bright (House Targaryen) and dark (Blackfrye). And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all. Snarling like a wolf, perhaps? Why would anything "snarl"? I think the only thing we can be sure of is that Tyrion will be with the dragons.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

As to the Genna comments I don't see why people throw that out as evidence against. It's literally as ambiguous as "you are not my son" in that we can all interpret that differently. When she says Tyrion is Tywin's son I don't think it's based on the fact that she literally stayed by Joanna's side from the time of conception until the birth never letting her out of her sight, or that the Maesters whipped up a DNA test for her to be sure... She is simply saying that Tyrion has Tywin's traits, but what son (who's been shunned by a cold father all of his life) doesn't strive to emulate their father? I equate this Genna account to a "Ned and the fishwife" story.

:agree:

I've always interpreted Genna's staement this way:

Jaime was fostered out to the Crakehalls when he was about 8, IIRC. Later, he was strongly influenced by Arthur Dayne. Tyrion spent his entire youth at Casterley Rock, so he spent a lot more time around Tywin. He's more like Tywin than Jaime because of nurture, not nature.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

The wiki links the characters in paranthases :

Dragons old (Maester Aemon) and young (Daenerys), true and false, bright (House Targaryen) and dark (Blackfrye). And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all. Snarling like a wolf, perhaps? Why would anything "snarl"? I think the only thing we can be sure of is that Tyrion will be with the dragons.

"Tyrion will be with the dragons" that statement excites me for some reason. Whether or not he is a "secret Targ" is inconsequential as he will be with them in a very significant role it seems. GRRM even said the three heads don't necessarily have to be Targaryen!

:agree:

I've always interpreted Genna's staement this way:

Jaime was fostered out to the Crakehalls when he was about 8, IIRC. Later, he was strongly influenced by Arthur Dayne. Tyrion spent his entire youth at Casterley Rock, so he spent a lot more time around Tywin. He's more like Tywin than Jaime because of nurture, not nature.

Yes good point. Tyrion must've studied him closely as he seems to know what his lord father would do in every military situation (ie poisoning the wells in Mereen, burning the city in the battle of the bells). It seems obvious that he craved the kind of pride in him that Tywin had in jaime. Perhaps he became bookish to find a way to please his father, by increasing his wits.

[Mad Madam Mim]

If Tywin has even an inkling that Tyrion was not his son then there is not a hope in seven hells that he would let Tyrion parade around with the Lannister name. End of.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

If Tywin has even an inkling that Tyrion was not his son then there is not a hope in seven hells that he would let Tyrion parade around with the Lannister name. End of.

It would be more shame for him to admit joanna fucked aerys and had a bastard. The way Tywin treats tyrion actually fits more into him being a bastard rather than just a dwarf. He always said I can't prove your not mine but I can still take away my generosity.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Also fits into why tywin got so angry at genna when she said tyrion was most like tywin...i I suspected that tywin suspected tyrion's parentage and that's why he took such offense. Cause its not really an insult to tywin unless tyrion is aerys' son. Cause no one can deny that tyrion is more clever than his siblings so why would tywin get so pissed that his son has his wits about him. Because he is not his son. Its an option. And fits into the slow way ice moves. It doesn't get hot it freezes. And tywin lannister is a glacier.

[Melifeather]

OR, Tywin could be pissed because its more likely Cersei and Jaime are Aerys kids and Tywin takes Tyrion's physical appearance as an affront.

It's a fact of life in general that beautiful people are more successful, admired and accepted in society. Tywin would like to think that Cersei and Jaime are his because of their physical attractiveness, but Tyrion is a dwarf, and an ugly one at that.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

I've had the thought before. But it doesn't seem near as likely. Why would he favor the pretty children if they aren't really his. It doesn't seem as logical. Seems to me he would despise them then and spoil tyrion. I'm just more inclined to believe tyrion is aerys son the pieces fit better for that. They fit for him to be tywins too but they are oddly shaped pieces for tywin to be the father...

[redriver]

Never wash an asse's face.

You waste both your time and your soap.

[The Anti-Targ]

Tywin wouldn't send him off to be Hand of the King if he didn't believe Tyrion was his. Tyrion could be Aerys' bastard, but Twyin never knew. I prefer to think GRRM has thrown out a bunch of red herrings on this one, not least because I don't want 2 mystery Targs.

Anyway why not Stannis as one head of the dragon? The Baratheons have Targ blood after all. Or Gendry. Or Mya. Heck thanks to Bob's over active loins we can rustle up enough dragon blood to be able to assassinate Dany and leave Jon dead and still have 3 riders. And we know from aDwD that one dragon can have multiple riders, so just because Dany has ridden Drogon doesn't mean she can't be replaced.

Mya, Gendry and Stannis for the three heads of the dragon!

Are the Targs known to produce dwarfs from time to time? Generally when out-breeding you tend to get a bit of hybrid vigour and robust offspring.