A + J = T

[Red Raven]

... but that would just kill the very interesting and unique relationship he had with Tywin (that GRRM built)

On that part, I agree. Tyrion being "Tywin writ small" is a great dynamic and I'd hate to see it go out the window for some other plot point that isn't even necessary. If any of them have to be Aerys's, I'd rather it be Jaime and Cersei as the idea that Tywin doted on two that weren't even his while being cruel to his only trueborn child would be delicious.

[Slayer of Lies]

ETA: A small man can cast a big shadow, especially if he's riding a dragon.

One of the other dragon-rider foreshadowing bits I like (that I meant to mention earlier) is during Tyrion's cyvasse game with fAegon. Not only does Tyrion basically wipe the turf with the boy-prince who reminds him of Joffrey in just four moves, the next to last move is:

The dwarf pushed his black dragon across a range of mountains.

And the final:

Smiling, he seized his dragon, flew it across the board. "I hope Your Grace will pardon me. Your king is trapped. Death in four."

I mean, where's the dragon-riding emoticon when you need it?

Not to mention fAegon swats the board over like a child shortly after the loss, and Tyrion bends over to pick up the pieces... Something Tyrion seems quite likely to be doing for real when he arrives to an Aegon-run Westeros in shambles down the road.

[Brienne The Wolf]

It would be cool, and there are some evidences, but I think that ONE secret Targaryen is enough for the series.

[Slayer of Lies]

It would be cool, and there are some evidences, but I think that ONE secret Targaryen is enough for the series.

Why is only one Targ enough, when the dragon must have three heads?*

Despite the apparently controversial nature of the following statement, I actually think the clues in place for Tyrion are more blatant than anything surrounding Jon, who does not obsess about dragons, have a white-blonde lock of hair, dream of being a Targ prince, etc. In fact, it’s a bit shocking to me that the A+J=T thread is not on its 68^th edition as well. Though Jon, I’ll grant, is actually the more difficult (and more “rewarding”) potential Targ to puzzle out, and may even be a full-blooded Targ to boot, if R+L married off-page.

Contrarily, Tyrion wouldn’t be a full-blooded Targ, he’d be a Hill, having been born a bastard of Aerys’ in Casterly Rock (also “responsible” for the death of his mother, as with Jon and Dany). *So when GRRM says things like “the three heads of the dragon need not be Targaryens,” Tyrion’s “eligibility” doesn’t necessarily get any “worse” that I can see. It even opens the door for him to be a head of the dragon without an alternate parentage reveal at all, considering his fascination with dragons and his apparently thorough understanding of their traits and histories.

However, when we have subtle Easter eggs to consider like “All dwarves are bastards in their father’s eyes,” “I cannot prove that you are not mine,” and the fact that Tyrion has taken on the pseudonym of Hugor Hill in Essos, there’s plenty of subtle fodder to keep the discussion alive, despite the apparent disdain for the idea by its detractors.

Further, the significance of Tyrion’s relationship with Tywin would not necessarily be diminished or cheapened in any way by an alternate parentage reveal that I can see. To me, an A+J=T reveal would be akin to finding out later in life that I was adopted. Shocking, yes, but it wouldn’t change who raised me, or who I’ve become due to my upbringing. Similarly, Tyrion would likely still be bitter about the way he was treated for most of his life, and Tywin would likely have a continued impact on Tyrion even from his grave. And – who knows – finding out that the Mad King was his father, Tyrion might actually see Tywin in a somewhat favorable light for a change…

I also don’t see the value in Varys and Illyrio keeping Tyrion alive and sending him to Dany’s aid if he’s nothing more than a full-blooded Lannister. What proof of his loyalty do they have, etc.? Meanwhile, being part-Targ, and noting that he’s the only character in the books to interact with Jon and Dany has some interesting play. As does Tyrion’s role in possibly erroneously “revealing” Aegon, who may end up being a Blackfyre, or may not be a Targaryen at all.

Yes, on a “metatextual” level it might seem strange or cheap to have more than one hidden part-Targ out there, but it would also be cheap (IMO) if someone like Brown Ben, fAegon or Hodor turned out to be the third head of the dragon, when we’ve been following Jon, Dany and Tyrion’s POVs since AGOT. Further, quite a few of the clues we’ve needed to puzzle those three together as a possible “endgame triarch” of sorts have been in place since ACOK.

As a separate point, if you read the “preview” text on ADWD (the book itself), or any online retailer’s website, only three characters are mentioned…

In the aftermath of a colossal battle,

Daenerys Targaryen rules with her three dragons as queen of a city built on dust and death. But Daenerys has thousands of enemies, and many have set out to find her. Fleeing from Westeros with a price on his head, Tyrion Lannister, too, is making his way east—with new allies who may not be the ragtag band they seem. And in the frozen north, Jon Snow confronts creatures from beyond the Wall of ice and stone, and powerful foes from within the Night’s Watch. In a time of rising restlessness, the tides of destiny and politics lead a grand cast of outlaws and priests, soldiers and skinchangers, nobles and slaves, to the greatest dance of all.

Not exactly a canonical argument, but one more log for the fire at least, pointing out that these are the three main characters in ADWD, if nothing more…

Just as well, GRRM’s mention regarding the producers of the TV show that “Sooner or later, they will have to deal with Rhaegar and Lyanna and the Mad King” is also very interesting to me...

I mean, why would a viewer who has no idea about the TOJ or what really happened in the HOTU give a crap about Aerys?

Anyway, add up all the clues, and – again – it’s somewhat of a wonder to me there isn’t at least a little more apparent favoritism on the boards for this notion, as there seems to be with R+L=J.

[Brienne The Wolf]

Why is only one Targ enough, when the dragon must have three heads?*

Despite the apparently controversial nature of the following statement, I actually think the clues in place for Tyrion are more blatant than anything surrounding Jon, who does not obsess about dragons, have a white-blonde lock of hair, dream of being a Targ prince, etc. In fact, it’s a bit shocking to me that the A+J=T thread is not on its 68^th edition as well. Though Jon, I’ll grant, is actually the more difficult (and more “rewarding”) potential Targ to puzzle out, and may even be a full-blooded Targ to boot, if R+L married off-page.

Contrarily, Tyrion wouldn’t be a full-blooded Targ, he’d be a Hill, having been born a bastard of Aerys’ in Casterly Rock (also “responsible” for the death of his mother, as with Jon and Dany). *So when GRRM says things like “the three heads of the dragon need not be Targaryens,” Tyrion’s “eligibility” doesn’t necessarily get any “worse” that I can see. It even opens the door for him to be a head of the dragon without an alternate parentage reveal at all, considering his fascination with dragons and his apparently thorough understanding of their traits and histories.

However, when we have subtle Easter eggs to consider like “All dwarves are bastards in their father’s eyes,” “I cannot prove that you are not mine,” and the fact that Tyrion has taken on the pseudonym of Hugor Hill in Essos, there’s plenty of subtle fodder to keep the discussion alive, despite the apparent disdain for the idea by its detractors.

Further, the significance of Tyrion’s relationship with Tywin would not necessarily be diminished or cheapened in any way by an alternate parentage reveal that I can see. To me, an A+J=T reveal would be akin to finding out later in life that I was adopted. Shocking, yes, but it wouldn’t change who raised me, or who I’ve become due to my upbringing. Similarly, Tyrion would likely still be bitter about the way he was treated for most of his life, and Tywin would likely have a continued impact on Tyrion even from his grave. And – who knows – finding out that the Mad King was his father, Tyrion might actually see Tywin in a somewhat favorable light for a change…

I also don’t see the value in Varys and Illyrio keeping Tyrion alive and sending him to Dany’s aid if he’s nothing more than a full-blooded Lannister. What proof of his loyalty do they have, etc.? Meanwhile, being part-Targ, and noting that he’s the only character in the books to interact with Jon and Dany has some interesting play. As does Tyrion’s role in possibly erroneously “revealing” Aegon, who may end up being a Blackfyre, or may not be a Targaryen at all.

Yes, on a “metatextual” level it might seem strange or cheap to have more than one hidden part-Targ out there, but it would also be cheap (IMO) if someone like Brown Ben, fAegon or Hodor turned out to be the third head of the dragon, when we’ve been following Jon, Dany and Tyrion’s POVs since AGOT. Further, quite a few of the clues we’ve needed to puzzle those three together as a possible “endgame triarch” of sorts have been in place since ACOK.

As a separate point, if you read the “preview” text on ADWD (the book itself), or any online retailer’s website, only three characters are mentioned…

In the aftermath of a colossal battle,

Daenerys Targaryen rules with her three dragons as queen of a city built on dust and death. But Daenerys has thousands of enemies, and many have set out to find her. Fleeing from Westeros with a price on his head, Tyrion Lannister, too, is making his way east—with new allies who may not be the ragtag band they seem. And in the frozen north, Jon Snow confronts creatures from beyond the Wall of ice and stone, and powerful foes from within the Night’s Watch. In a time of rising restlessness, the tides of destiny and politics lead a grand cast of outlaws and priests, soldiers and skinchangers, nobles and slaves, to the greatest dance of all.

Not exactly a canonical argument, but one more log for the fire at least, pointing out that these are the three main characters in ADWD, if nothing more…

Just as well, GRRM’s mention regarding the producers of the TV show that “Sooner or later, they will have to deal with Rhaegar and Lyanna and the Mad King” is also very interesting to me...

I mean, why would a viewer who has no idea about the TOJ or what really happened in the HOTU give a crap about Aerys?

Anyway, add up all the clues, and – again – it’s somewhat of a wonder to me there isn’t at least a little more apparent favoritism on the boards for this notion, as there seems to be with R+L=J.

I noticed that too. The book is called A Dance With Dragons, and the main POV's are Jon, Dany and Tyrion!

But if I was a writer I surely wouldn't do that. FAegon could be the other head...

But if Tyrion is the other head, maybe it'll be different for him...

I'm still not sure...

[ghost00]

I completely understandwhy people think that Tyrion is Areys II and Joanna's son however there are a few things about it that don't make sense.

Things that Support A+J=T

- Tywin says Tyrion isn't his son but he can't prove it

- Tyrion is smart and into books like Rheager, if tyrion wasn't a dwarf he would be capable of doing anything like Rheagaer

- Tyrion has always loved Dragons and has had Dragon Dreams

- Tyrion is in the east with dany where he can become the a head of a dragon

- We know that Areys wanted Joanna

Things that don't add up

- Tywin sister says that Tyrion was Tywin's son, meaning that Tyrion acts exactly like Tywin (from the actions in the book I'd agree Tyrion is way more like Tywin than Jamie or Cercei)

- We are told Aerys took certain advances during the bedding, there is nothing hinted about him doing anything later. From what we are told Joanna lived at casterly rock with jamie and cercei when they were children which is when aerys would have had to sleep with her

- if aerys had slept with joanna around the wedding which is completetly possible than jamie or cercei or both would be his children.

- Tywin thought aerys made jamie kingsguard to steal his son, what if jamie is aerys and aerys knows. It would also explain the incest between jamie and cercei

[Mithras]

Things that don't add up

- Tywin sister says that Tyrion was Tywin's son, meaning that Tyrion acts exactly like Tywin (from the actions in the book I'd agree Tyrion is way more like Tywin than Jamie or Cercei)

People are bringing this and Tyrion is Tywin writ small but these do not exclude A + J = T theory. Tyrion is raised by Tywin. He is still his son because he learned from him. This is basically similar to Ned being the son of mostly Jon Arryn. Tyrion's biological father still might be Aerys.

[Amoracchius]

- Tywin thought aerys made jamie kingsguard to steal his son, what if jamie is aerys and aerys knows. It would also explain the incest between jamie and cercei

Well, it wouldn't explain the incest, but it would certainly add some irony.

[Faceless Man Friday]

It would be cool, and there are some evidences, but I think that ONE secret Targaryen is enough for the series.

I agree that there could only be one secret Targ but I think it is still to be determined who that one may be.

[2hot4winterfell]

Where is the evidence that suggests this is true? All I've seen is that his "hair is so blonde it appeared white" and something he said moments before he died taken completely out of context.

Jolene Brown said it: Twyin would not raise the child if he suspected he was not his own. Tyrion is a dwarf, whoremongering disgrace, but he is a Lannister. He started a war for him in the Riverlands because he is one of them. The honor of the house was at stake. Why would someone borderline obsessed with the honor and respect of his family name "adopt" a dwarf, bastard son of a madman and then pass him off as his own? It genuinely makes no sense. It is not the Tywin we know. He would not do it.

You think a Tywin that would raise a bastard son of Aerys is a better character. I think it serves to undermine literally everything we've read about him in the last five books.

The resentment would make a lot more sense if this were the case (if even he just suspected it a possibility... Which I would assume to be the situation if this were all true). Though he would have raised him as a son and grown to see him as a Lannister. Tywin isn't 100% cold.. You see glimpses of humanity in him throughout the books... And as far as starting a war for him in the Riverlands goes, you would have to. You couldn't, at the point, just cast him aside and say "Well he was actually a Targaryen anyway," Tywin would keep to it. He also loved Joanna.. Just another possible motivator to raise Tyrion, if even spitefully.

I see too many connections and coincidences to completely ignore the theory. Not to say I fully buy it. But it's worth considering.

[Brienne The Wolf]

I agree that there could only be one secret Targ but I think it is still to be determined who that one may be.

Yeah, but there are much more textual evidences to R+L=J than A+J=T.

[earlofwarwick]

You think a Tywin that would raise a bastard son of Aerys is a better character. I think it serves to undermine literally everything we've read about him in the last five books.

I totally agree, I really hope this theory is wrong. I really like the fact that Tywin hates Tyrion because of Joanna's death, it makes him seem more human. In his eyes Tyrion killed the woman he loved and he will never forgive him for that. I agree with the view that Tywin would not raise a bastard of Aerys' too, that just seems ludicrous to me knowing what we do about Tywin's ruthlessness.

[Duckface]

No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning.

Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

This is interesting. Why would Quaithe name Tyrion as a lion and tell Daenerys to beware of him and to not trust him if he is a Targaryen? Quaithe could not know, perhaps, that Tyrion is a Targaryen, but still...

Based on everything people wrote above, I think Tyrion is Tywin's true son. I believe Bloodraven is the "third head of the dragon" and if we took a look what colour dragons are, It would make some sense. Dany riding black Drogon, Jon riding white Viserion and Bloodraven riding green Rhaegal.

[ultimate]

I really truly believe Jamie and Cersei are the Targs from Twyin's line and not Tyrion. The Major defining moment no1 mentions is after Jamie killed the Mad King (his father) Ned came into the throne room to see Jamie sitting on the Iron Throne. To me this is the most passed over GRRM clue no1 ever talks about.

[theREALjonsnow]

I really truly believe Jamie and Cersei are the Targs from Twyin's line and not Tyrion. The Major defining moment no1 mentions is after Jamie killed the Mad King (his father) Ned came into the throne room to see Jamie sitting on the Iron Throne. To me this is the most passed over GRRM clue no1 ever talks about.

Really Ultimate? this analysis is worthy of somebody who watches blues clues...

Yeah, but there are much more textual evidences to R+L=J than A+J=T.

how about giving a little bit of that textual evidence? i think tyrion is a pyromaniac, who has been having dragon dreams since a child and is the rightful heir of westeros as the oldest living male heir of Aerys T. i also think Jamie is Tyrion's half brother. plus this conversation put into proper context show how the targaryan blood in Jon Snow has him thinking about burning all his family members aka the starks because nobody told him the truth about what he was signing up for. just my two cents...

" What are you reading about? he asked.

"Dragons," Tyrion told him.

"What good is that? There are no more dragons." the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.

"So they say," Tyrion replied. "Sad isn't it? When I was your age, i used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

"You did?" the boy said supicously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

"Oh yes. Even a stunted,twisted,ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's seated on a dragon's back." " I used to start flames in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Somtimes id imagine my father burning. At other times my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him an equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. " Don't look at me that way bastard . I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

"No!" Jon Snow said horrified. " I wouldn't ... i couldn't..."

"No never?" Tyrion raised an eyebrow

............ then at the very end of the chapter this lil tidbit is given...

One by one the company drifted off to the their shelters and to sleep, all but Jon Snow, who had drawn the night's first watch.

Tyrion was the last to retire, as always. As he stepped into the shelter his men had built for him, he paused and look back at Jon Snow. The boy stood near the fire, his face still and hard, looking deep into the flames.

Tyrion Lannister smiled sadly and went to bed.

that right there is called giving textual evidence to you theories. 127 pages in and GRRM is giving so much away if you know what your looking at. Currently in my 3rd reread of ASOIAF and everything is starting to make sense...

[aerislair]

Just read A Feast for Crows and Jaime's Aunt Genna commented that "Tyrion is Tywin's son (not you, Jaime)"

It's possible that if the three dragon's heads are not D+J+A, then it might be D+J+T. Targ blood not a prerequisite.

[Brienne The Wolf]

Really Ultimate? this analysis is worthy of somebody who watches blues clues...

how about giving a little bit of that textual evidence? i think tyrion is a pyromaniac, who has been having dragon dreams since a child and is the rightful heir of westeros as the oldest living male heir of Aerys T. i also think Jamie is Tyrion's half brother. plus this conversation put into proper context show how the targaryan blood in Jon Snow has him thinking about burning all his family members aka the starks because nobody told him the truth about what he was signing up for. just my two cents...

" What are you reading about? he asked.

"Dragons," Tyrion told him.

"What good is that? There are no more dragons." the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.

"So they say," Tyrion replied. "Sad isn't it? When I was your age, i used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

"You did?" the boy said supicously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

"Oh yes. Even a stunted,twisted,ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's seated on a dragon's back." " I used to start flames in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Somtimes id imagine my father burning. At other times my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him an equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. " Don't look at me that way bastard . I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

"No!" Jon Snow said horrified. " I wouldn't ... i couldn't..."

"No never?" Tyrion raised an eyebrow

............ then at the very end of the chapter this lil tidbit is given...

One by one the company drifted off to the their shelters and to sleep, all but Jon Snow, who had drawn the night's first watch.

Tyrion was the last to retire, as always. As he stepped into the shelter his men had built for him, he paused and look back at Jon Snow. The boy stood near the fire, his face still and hard, looking deep into the flames.

Tyrion Lannister smiled sadly and went to bed.

that right there is called giving textual evidence to you theories. 127 pages in and GRRM is giving so much away if you know what your looking at. Currently in my 3rd reread of ASOIAF and everything is starting to make sense...

First, as I said there are much more strong textual evidences to R+L=J. It fits Ned's personality to fulfill the promise he made Lyanna and lie to protect Jon. It doesn't fit his personality to fuck a whore when he's married. Even Jaime could resist Pia, to be loyal to his sister.

And if Jon is Rhaegar's son, he is the rightful heir of Westeros and any child of Aerys would come after him.

And this scene doesn't need to be an evidence. We all know Tyrion likes to read a lot. And he is a dwarf... Of course he would be interested in dragons... As he himself said, he could look down over the world seated in a dragon's back. He would have his revenge.

And we all know the prophecy about Cersei's end... the valonqar would choke her life out. Whoever is he, Tyrion or Jaime, it probably won't be with fire.

[theREALjonsnow]

First, as I said there are much more strong textual evidences to R+L=J. It fits Ned's personality to fulfill the promise he made Lyanna and lie to protect Jon. It doesn't fit his personality to fuck a whore when he's married. Even Jaime could resist Pia, to be loyal to his sister.

And if Jon is Rhaegar's son, he is the rightful heir of Westeros and any child of Aerys would come after him.

And this scene doesn't need to be an evidence. We all know Tyrion likes to read a lot. And he is a dwarf... Of course he would be interested in dragons... As he himself said, he could look down over the world seated in a dragon's back. He would have his revenge.

And we all know the prophecy about Cersei's end... the valonqar would choke her life out. Whoever is he, Tyrion or Jaime, it probably won't be with fire.

First, anybody over the age of nine can guess that R+L=J, this page is for A+J=T.

Second, what are you talking about? i don't think you understand how the line of succession works. PRINCE Rhaegar died on the trident BEFORE his father was killed by Jamie in the sack of KL. also he was prince and not king so any of the mad kings heirs can claim the throne before any of Rhaegars children (Aegon then his younger brother Jon).

Thirdly if you don't understand how the paragraph i quoted explains 1000% without a doubt that Tyrion is a Targ then you should give up trying to read these books cause they might be to difficult of a read.

[MadFish]

Long time lurker just now starting to post on the forum, and this theory is one of my favorites. I want it to be true, but I have my doubts about the timeline. Is there any evidence of Aerys and Joanna being in the same proximity near Tyrions birth?

[Faceless Man Friday]

Second, what are you talking about? i don't think you understand how the line of succession works. PRINCE Rhaegar died on the trident BEFORE his father was killed by Jamie in the sack of KL. also he was prince and not king so any of the mad kings heirs can claim the throne before any of Rhaegars children (Aegon then his younger brother Jon).

I believe Martin based his rules of succession on English Common Law under which siblings only inherit if there is no lineal descendant. As a Lineal decendant of Aerys, any child of Rhaegar would have a greater claim to the crown than Aery's siblings or Rhaegar's siblings. This is confirmed in ADWD when it is recognized that if Aegon is not fake he has a better claim than Danearys. Whether Rhaegar predeceased his father is irrelevant if he died living an heir. That was why Aegon and his sister were killed. If they survived the crown would pass to them. Viserys only became a Pretender to the Throne because Rhaegar's children died without issue, extinguishing Rhaegar's line. If Jon is Rhaegar's son and is considered legitimate because in Westeros it is lawful for at least Targs to practice Polygamy then Jon would be the rightful heir unless Aegon is real and was born first. I don't remember who was born first Jon or Aegon.