A + J = T

[theREALjonsnow]

hold on a minute buddy i think you might be the one that is confused... the only reason it is said that Aegon might have a better claim that Dany is due to the practice of the Andals when they came to Westeros. everything i said about the succession of kings in GRRM universe was correct. If Tyrion is the oldest living male of the previous king then he is rightful heir to seven kingdoms. also if you can understand a timeline then you know Aegon was born before Jon. Ned arrives after the sack of KL, then goes to ToJ

read the latest GRRM short story from Dangerous Women and you will find out how confusing this stuff can get...

[Faceless Man Friday]

I wasn't confused. I was drunk. Somehow I was thinking Dany was Aerys sister not his daughter and missed the part about Tyrion. Yes you are probably correct. If Tyrion is Aerys son and they can get passed the bastard issue he may have best claim, but I am not so sure it is clear in Westeros that the surviving child takes over the living heir of the first born son. One thing is clear, however, the one who sits the Iron Throne is the one who can take it.

[Steve Lomas Longstrider]

i'll admit i havent read the whole thread (31 pages, come on?!) but i dont buy it.

it doesnt make sense to me, tyrion is tywin's son, like genna lannister said. he inherited his wits and ability to read other people, anticipating their actions. only factor in the dwarf thing and it gave it a bit of humility to relate to the common and man and to see people not titles.

tyrion is destined to become a great queens hand, ruling by dany's side, who slowly starts to lose her mind due to the targaryen madness

[GreyWindsRevenge]

Tyrion being a Targaryen would upset me for similar reasons that everyone else has voiced. In particular the Tywin/Tyrion relationship would feel like a waste. I think mentioning that Aerys longed after Joanna was put in there to add more backstory to Tywins contempt for Aerys not to bring questions to the legitimacy of Tyrion.

[Brienne The Wolf]

First, anybody over the age of nine can guess that R+L=J, this page is for A+J=T.

You can't say this. A lot of people in this forum didn't know about R+L=J before rereading or coming to this forum. You're offending them. And I said before, that I don't think the series would have TWO secret Tagaryens. GRRM is better than this.

Second, what are you talking about? i don't think you understand how the line of succession works. PRINCE Rhaegar died on the trident BEFORE his father was killed by Jamie in the sack of KL. also he was prince and not king so any of the mad kings heirs can claim the throne before any of Rhaegars children (Aegon then his younger brother Jon).

Okay, here I was wrong.

Thirdly if you don't understand how the paragraph i quoted explains 1000% without a doubt that Tyrion is a Targ then you should give up trying to read these books cause they might be to difficult of a read.

If you don't understand that people have different opinions, you shouldn't really be in this forum, or even reading ASOIAF.

[Faceless Man Friday]

Don't want to beat a dead horse but I do not think the laws of succession in Westeros are not all that clear when it comes to an Uncle taking over the son of the lineal decedent. I know there is some controversial precedent in the Targ tree, but I do not think it has ever been firmly established. In the real world, should Prince William die the next in line is his son, Prince George and not his brother, Prince Harry. So if Westeros is the same, it would not matter that Rhaegar died before Aerys, he is still the King's first born lineal heir and so Rhaegar's lineal heirs, his children should take precedence over Rhaegar's Siblings. The title would only revert to Rhaegar's Siblings if Rhaegar had no living lineal heirs. That is how it would work if the Westerosi line of succession worked the same as the British Line but I cannot find any definite proof that it does.

[Faceless Man Friday]

By the way, I do not think Tyrion is a Targ but that Jamie and Cersei are, which would make Tommen a Targ too.

[DaarioBigalowTyroshiGigolo]

Little known fact I too am a secret Targaryen.

[Jairion Lannister]

I tend not to believe this one since it takes away from the whole Tyrion/Tywin storyline. I think the Cersei/Jaime being the Mad King's children works a lot better as a theory, even though I still don't really expect it to be true.

[Steve Stark]

Little known fact I too am a secret Targaryen.

Har! I nearly shit my pants at that one.

How do we know that Twyin didn't want to kill Tyrion? How do we know that on Joanna's death bed she didn't say, "promise me Tywin..."

EDIT: FYI, I really needed a sarcasm font right there.

[Dagda]

i'll admit i havent read the whole thread (31 pages, come on?!) but i dont buy it.

it doesnt make sense to me, tyrion is tywin's son, like genna lannister said. he inherited his wits and ability to read other people, anticipating their actions. only factor in the dwarf thing and it gave it a bit of humility to relate to the common and man and to see people not titles.

tyrion is destined to become a great queens hand, ruling by dany's side, who slowly starts to lose her mind due to the targaryen madness

Not to inject logic in here or anything, but there are only two characters in the series with mismatched eyes. One is a known Targ bastard, the other is Tyrion. Speculate On! ;)

[Steve Lomas Longstrider]

well, if you look at it logically then the fact that out of all the characters with targaryen blood only one is known to have mismatched eyes, then that indicates it is not a targaryen trait. for example, if a family has 9 children with blonde hair and one with brown then you would say brown hair does not run in the family.

[theREALjonsnow]

You can't say this. A lot of people in this forum didn't know about R+L=J before rereading or coming to this forum. You're offending them. And I said before, that I don't think the series would have TWO secret Tagaryens. GRRM is better than this.

Okay, here I was wrong.

If you don't understand that people have different opinions, you shouldn't really be in this forum, or even reading ASOIAF.

lol it's all good my lady... Some people have valid opinions and some people need help from others in forming their own. the whole point of the story is that their is Valaryian Dragonseed spread all over the Seven kingdoms so that requires multiple secret targaryens GRRM is not better than that.

By the way, I do not think Tyrion is a Targ but that Jamie and Cersei are, which would make Tommen a Targ too.

C'mon man there are SO MANY times he is quoted having dragon dreams or mentioning reading about them that it starts to get ridiculous with no such events occuring beteween Cersei and Jamie. don't think tommen is dreaming or reading about dragons either.

[corbon]

Long time lurker just now starting to post on the forum, and this theory is one of my favorites. I want it to be true, but I have my doubts about the timeline. Is there any evidence of Aerys and Joanna being in the same proximity near Tyrions birth?

There is no known evidence of the location of either of them anywhere near the appropriate time. Nor is there any known evidence of Tywin's location at the appropriate time.

It can probably be assumed that since Tywin was at least on the face of it prepared to accept Tyrio as his son, he must have had some contact (intercourse) with Joanna in the preceeding 8-10 months or so. But other than that what we have is three people interconnected with two locations and no knowledge of where any of them were over the time period in question. And a whole continent besides to play with.

hold on a minute buddy i think you might be the one that is confused... the only reason it is said that Aegon might have a better claim that Dany is due to the practice of the Andals when they came to Westeros. everything i said about the succession of kings in GRRM universe was correct. If Tyrion is the oldest living male of the previous king then he is rightful heir to seven kingdoms. also if you can understand a timeline then you know Aegon was born before Jon. Ned arrives after the sack of KL, then goes to ToJ

read the latest GRRM short story from Dangerous Women and you will find out how confusing this stuff can get...

You might be kind of embarrasssed given the way you have carried on here, but actually you are the one who is confused. The Targaryen's practice a modified (males only since DotD civil war) form of Agnatic Primogeniture. Rhaegar's sons come before Aerys' other sons regardless of Rhaegar living to inherit or not, the same as England.

i'll admit i havent read the whole thread (31 pages, come on?!) but i dont buy it.

it doesnt make sense to me, tyrion is tywin's son, like genna lannister said. he inherited his wits and ability to read other people, anticipating their actions. only factor in the dwarf thing and it gave it a bit of humility to relate to the common and man and to see people not titles.

tyrion is destined to become a great queens hand, ruling by dany's side, who slowly starts to lose her mind due to the targaryen madness

It might help you to read some of the previous pages where the evidence you might have missed has been laid out then, rather than ignoring the evidence and instead repeating a tired and oft refuted 'issue' that is really pretty stupid once you think about it. You'll also see why this assertion about Genna's comment being used as proof that Tyrion cannot be Aerys' is pretty stupid really.

Having pointed that out, I'd like to add that although its definitely still a possibility that A+J=T and that there is an enormous amount of evidence, or hints if you prefer, to such, on balance of probability I would have to say it is unlikely.

Most damning, lowering in my personal estamation from 33-50% down to 2-5% or so, is GRRMs statement that Dany's mother named her, Tyrion's father named him and Ned named Jon Snow. Note that Jon is not named by his mother or father, but by Ned (R+L=J evidence). But note also that Tyrion is named by his father, so for all GRRM's brilliantly setting up the possibility of A+J=T, apparently Tywin is Tyrion's actual father anyway. I can't see Aerys beng allowed to name Tyrion, nor using a 'Ty' name for him.

[Dagda]

well, if you look at it logically then the fact that out of all the characters with targaryen blood only one is known to have mismatched eyes, then that indicates it is not a targaryen trait. for example, if a family has 9 children with blonde hair and one with brown then you would say brown hair does not run in the family.

:)

You are running with real world logic, not plot logic where dragons and Popsicles appear quite normal.

[theREALjonsnow]

@corbon: actually i am not embarrassed or confused at all. you might have given some technical definition of Agnatic Primogeniture to but you still had to use the word modified in reference to the books. i have read the blacks and the greens so i know that it really doesn't matter what people say its all about who has enough power to seize the throne. I base my opinions on what characters in the book have stated. Prince Rhaegar died a prince so none of his sons would take the throne before HIS siblings first get the chance... we can both argue till our faces turn blue but what's the point? every region in the ASOIAF has its own customs which represent real-world practices.

also you think a overwhelming amount of evidence that Tyrion is a Targ is discredited by a tiny GRRM quote taken out of context? ill stick to his penchant for pyromania and his inability to sleep without prophetic dreams as my textual keys to his lineage...

[Dagda]

You can't say this. A lot of people in this forum didn't know about R+L=J before rereading or coming to this forum. You're offending them. And I said before, that I don't think the series would have TWO secret Tagaryens. GRRM is better than this.

Actually, I believe there is only one Targ bastard, and it is't Jon.

When Jon is getting rid of all the kingly blood on the Wall, wouldn't have some 102 year old who seems to have been in constant contact with Rhaegar turned to him a said "gee great great great grand nephew .... "

[Amoracchius]

Actually, I believe there is only one Targ bastard, and it is't Jon.

When Jon is getting rid of all the kingly blood on the Wall, wouldn't have some 102 year old who seems to have been in constant contact with Rhaegar turned to him a said "gee great great great grand nephew .... "

I'm not sure I follow. Sure, we know that Aemon and Rhaegar were in contact with one another, but that's a far cry from "constant contact." Even if they were in constant contact, do you really think that Rhaegar would simply send a raven from the Tower of Joy across the nearly the full length of the continent to Castle Black saying, "Guess what? I got Lyanna Stark pregnant!" and hope that no one in the war torn Seven Kingdoms would intercept it? That seems like a stretch to me.

Moreover, when Rhaegar left the Tower of Joy, Jon wouldn't have been born yet and he would have no way of knowing that the baby would end up with Ned or would be using the name Jon Snow or even what gender the baby would be, so even if Rhaegar sent a message, how would Maester Aemon know that Jon was the baby Rhaegar wrote to him about 17 years earlier? It just doesn't add up.

[theJoker501]

Jamie and Cersei are older than Tyrion so I would find it hard to believe that Tyrion would be the Mad Kings son. But, just like pointed out earlier in this thread there is a part in ADWD where Ser Barristan tells Dany This about her father about Lord Tywin's wedding night Aerys said "it was a great pity that the lord's right to the first night had been abolished". "A drunken Jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the ... the liberties your father took during the bedding." His face reddened. "I have said too much, your grace. I-".

That was said before being cut off by Hizdahr Zo Loraq's procession. This is probably in the thread already but I did not read all of it. The info is on chapter 43 pg 632.

I could see Jamie and Cercei being his offspring but not Tyrion!

[Dagda]

I'm not sure I follow. Sure, we know that Aemon and Rhaegar were in contact with one another, but that's a far cry from "constant contact." Even if they were in constant contact, do you really think that Rhaegar would simply send a raven from the Tower of Joy across the nearly the full length of the continent to Castle Black saying, "Guess what? I got Lyanna Stark pregnant!" and hope that no one in the war torn Seven Kingdoms would intercept it? That seems like a stretch to me.

Moreover, when Rhaegar left the Tower of Joy, Jon wouldn't have been born yet and he would have no way of knowing that the baby would end up with Ned or would be using the name Jon Snow or even what gender the baby would be, so even if Rhaegar sent a message, how would Maester Aemon know that Jon was the baby Rhaegar wrote to him about 17 years earlier? It just doesn't add up.

Actually yes, I believe that Aemon would know what was going on with Rhaegar and his quest for the prophesy. It would make sense that when Rhaegar found the fulfillment of his long quest with Lyanna, he might mention it in the year plus to Aemon. Aemon also was intimate with the little brother Stark. Couldn't have been to hard to connect the dots. It's allot easier to believe this line than NO ONE knows the truth except for Howland Reed.