A + J = T

[Amoracchius]

Actually yes, I believe that Aemon would know what was going on with Rhaegar and his quest for the prophesy. It would make sense that when Rhaegar found the fulfillment of his long quest with Lyanna, he might mention it in the year plus to Aemon. Aemon also was intimate with the little brother Stark. Couldn't have been to hard to connect the dots. It's allot easier to believe this line than NO ONE knows the truth except for Howland Reed.

But you still haven't answered how Rhaegar would get that info to Aemon while a continent away and with a war raging.

As for Aemon and Benjen, during the time period we're discussing, Benjen was a child and wouldn't join the NW or meet Maester Aemon for years. Moreover, the only evidence we have that Benjen may know about Jon's parentage are a couple fleeting references to he and Lyanna being close; being close to someone does not mean that you automatically know all her secrets, so I'm unconvinced that Benjen knows/knew anything about that.

I understand being doubtful of the "Only Howland Reed knows," perspective, but the alternative you laid out seems pretty doubtful to me, too.

This is an A+J=T thread, and we've gone way off topic, so I'm going to stop this argument here.

[corbon]

@corbon: actually i am not embarrassed or confused at all. you might have given some technical definition of Agnatic Primogeniture to but you still had to use the word modified in reference to the books.

Its 'modified' since the DotD to remove females from the succession, regardless of proximity. So, for example, instead of accepting the Elizabeth's and Victoria's, the english crown would have passed to even a distant male cousin before accepting a daughter of the previous King.

That doesn't change the fact that Rhaegar's sons come before his brother in the legal Targaryen succession, totally regardless of when he died..

i have read the blacks and the greens so i know that it really doesn't matter what people say its all about who has enough power to seize the throne.

Sure, but that has no bearing on what the legal succession is, just who ends up on the throne.

I base my opinions on what characters in the book have stated. Prince Rhaegar died a prince so none of his sons would take the throne before HIS siblings first get the chance... we can both argue till our faces turn blue but what's the point? every region in the ASOIAF has its own customs which represent real-world practices.

No one in the books says that though. Rhaegar's son(s) was(were) ahead of Viserys in the succession, but the known one died (supposedly) and the unknown one is, well, unknown, leaving Viserys the heir by default. Viserys was never ahead of Aegon in the succession.

This is very important going forward because its a key plot point as to how Dany will react if she finds out either Aegon lived or Jon's parentage. Sure she has the power, due to dragons and armies, but her internal framing has been based on having the right, which she would no longer have.

also you think a overwhelming amount of evidence that Tyrion is a Targ is discredited by a tiny GRRM quote taken out of context? ill stick to his penchant for pyromania and his inability to sleep without prophetic dreams as my textual keys to his lineage...

Given how carefully GRRM words his relies, and that this reply was carefully worded to frame the exact same specific issue (but on Jon's behalf), yes. I think that the theory is heavily discredited by that reply. That doesn't change the mountain of evidence (most of which was always weak, or at least has alternate interpretations) though.

Note too that his 'penchant for pyromania' is ratehr limited, and the 'inability to sleep without prophetic dreams' simply does not exist. He's had some dreams which may or may not be prophetic, or symbolic, thats all. So far there is no strong evidence supporting them being prophetic.

Jamie and Cersei are older than Tyrion so I would find it hard to believe that Tyrion would be the Mad Kings son. But, just like pointed out earlier in this thread there is a part in ADWD where Ser Barristan tells Dany This about her father about Lord Tywin's wedding night Aerys said "it was a great pity that the lord's right to the first night had been abolished". "A drunken Jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the ... the liberties your father took during the bedding." His face reddened. "I have said too much, your grace. I-".

That was said before being cut off by Hizdahr Zo Loraq's procession. This is probably in the thread already but I did not read all of it. The info is on chapter 43 pg 632.

I could see Jamie and Cercei being his offspring but not Tyrion!

:bang:

Yes its in the thread, often. And you are using the same misinterpretation and bad logic, again, as lots of others in this very thread have done. I've explained this more than enough.

But you still haven't answered how Rhaegar would get that info to Aemon while a continent away and with a war raging.

As for Aemon and Benjen, during the time period we're discussing, Benjen was a child and wouldn't join the NW or meet Maester Aemon for years. Moreover, the only evidence we have that Benjen may know about Jon's parentage are a couple fleeting references to he and Lyanna being close; being close to someone does not mean that you automatically know all her secrets, so I'm unconvinced that Benjen knows/knew anything about that.

I understand being doubtful of the "Only Howland Reed knows," perspective, but the alternative you laid out seems pretty doubtful to me, too.

This is an A+J=T thread, and we've gone way off topic, so I'm going to stop this argument here.

Notes:

1. There are no ravens at ToJ. Its an abandoned watchtower with no inhabitants, and definitely no Maester or rookery.

2. Rhaegar died before Jon was born so could not have told Maester Aemon of him.

3. Jon is supposed to be Ned Stark's bastard, nothing to do with Lyanna, who is the most minor of footnotes in history. And there is no reason for anyone anywhere to question this. Only those at ToJ have of the necessary clues required to start even asking probing questions.

[theREALjonsnow]

@corbon: you got me on the succession thing even though you had to copy/paste you answer straight from the wiki! the reason i was so entrenched in my stance was that i am currently re-reading the entire series (its been 3 years) before the new season comes out in april. Unfortunately for me i am still halfway through SoS and the whole "Aegon technically has a better claim thing" is not mentioned till book 5 so i might have forgotten it's relevance to the storyline...

BUT... rather limited? Aerys wanted to destroy KL with wildfire and 15 or so years later Tyrion saves KL with wildfire. I haven't yet gotten to the point where he is on the run for killing Joff but when he does i am pretty sure his lack of sleep leads to some interesting dreams, like him having 2 heads one lauging(targ) and one crying(lannister) as he destroys KL from atop a dragon... i think that might be strong evidence of a prophetic dream right there

[Amoracchius]

BUT... rather limited? Aerys wanted to destroy KL with wildfire and 15 or so years later Tyrion saves KL with wildfire. I haven't yet gotten to the point where he is on the run for killing Joff but when he does i am pretty sure his lack of sleep leads to some interesting dreams, like him having 2 heads one lauging(targ) and one crying(lannister) as he destroys KL from atop a dragon... i think that might be strong evidence of a prophetic dream right there

I'm going to disagree here.

Tyrion used wildfire to defend KL because he was desperate and it was one of the few weapons at his disposal, not because of some deep, genetic love for fire. He also used a giant chain to win that battle, but I don't see anyone arguing that he's secretly descended from a noble line of chain-lovers.

Tyrion started having noteworthy dreams shortly after a terrible and traumatic series of events, but none of them has come true yet, so I'm not ready to say they are prophetic. Moreover, despite what I keep seeing on the forums, the dream does not involve Tyrion riding a dragon and destroying KL:

That Night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as read as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slwe him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jamie, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.

The dream doesn't even mention KL and it explicitly places Tyrion fighting on the ground while dragons fly overhead, so if it is a prophetic dream, the prophesy is not that Tyrion is a dragonrider, but rather that he will fight in a battle involving dragons. Moreover, I don't think that the two heads have to represent the Lannister and (allegedly) Targaryan sides of Tyrion. They could just as easily represent the inner turmoil caused by the conflict between the part of Tyrion that wants revenge on his family and the part that still loves them. I read Tyrion's sleeplessness and nightmares as evidence of the trauma he's been through recently, not magical secret ancestry.

[theREALjonsnow]

Tyrion used wildfire to defend KL because he was desperate and it was one of the few weapons at his disposal, not because of some deep, genetic love for fire. He also used a giant chain to win that battle, but I don't see anyone arguing that he's secretly descended from a noble line of chain-lovers.

I guess that's your interpretation of the text but i tend to think that GRRM is trying to convey a message with the sequence of events (Aerys wanted to burn KL with wildfire and 15 years later Tyrion saves KL with wildfire). and you mentioning the chain was also used disproves what in regards to A+J=T? look at my quote a few posts back when tyrion tells Jon Snow that he had been starting fires in the bowls of casterly rock since he was a child ,also they both stare longingly into the fires imagining their closest family members burning alive. that sounds like a deep genetic love for flame.

The dream doesn't even mention KL and it explicitly places Tyrion fighting on the ground while dragons fly overhead, so if it is a prophetic dream, the prophesy is not that Tyrion is a dragonrider, but rather that he will fight in a battle involving dragons. Moreover, I don't think that the two heads have to represent the Lannister and (allegedly) Targaryan sides of Tyrion. They could just as easily represent the inner turmoil caused by the conflict between the part of Tyrion that wants revenge on his family and the part that still loves them. I read Tyrion's sleeplessness and nightmares as evidence of the trauma he's been through recently, not magical secret ancestry.

whoops so he wasn't riding a dragon in that specific dream. I haven't gotten to that point in the text as i am currently halfway through ASOS on my reread so i guess i added that in but i don't think it discredits the dream itself.

tried to fix the post but it still looks weird.

[Amoracchius]

I guess that's your interpretation of the text but i tend to think that GRRM is trying to convey a message with the sequence of events (Aerys wanted to burn KL with wildfire and 15 years later Tyrion saves KL with wildfire). and you mentioning the chain was also used disproves what in regards to A+J=T? look at my quote a few posts back when tyrion tells Jon Snow that he had been starting fires in the bowls of casterly rock since he was a child ,also they both stare longingly into the fires imagining their closest family members burning alive. that sounds like a deep genetic love for flame.

When I mentioned the chain, I was simply trying to express that I think how a person seeks to defend a city under siege is not a good indicator of their ancestry. I think it makes as much sense to say the chain proves that Tyrion is descended from people who loved chains as it does to say that using wildfire proves he is descended from people who loved wildfire.

As for the scene with Jon. That's interesting and I'll have to go back and reread but, for now, I'm still unconvinced.

[theREALjonsnow]

" Lord Stannis was caught between your father and the fire. It's said the Imp set the river itself aflame." Jamie saw green flames reaching up into the sky higher than the tallest towers, as burning men screamed in the streets. I have dreamed this dream before. It was almost funny, but there was no one to share the joke.

a quote i just read from SoS when Jamie's hand is being cleaned by Qyburn at HH. It seems even jamie can't help from making a connection to tyrion's actions and aery's. i see a clue, what do you see?

here is the unconvincing quote from GoT when Jon Targaryen and Tyrion Targaryen are travelling to the wall...

" I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Somtimes i'd imagine my father burning. At other times my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret you dreamt the same kind of dream." " No," Jon Snow said horrified. " I wouldn't..."No? Never?" Tyrion raised an eyebrow.

then a lil later in chapter... Tyrion grinned at him. " That's good Bastard. Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it." " Most men," the boy said. " But not you." " No," Tyrion admitted, " Not me. I seldom dream of dragons anymore. There are no dragons."

and finally at the end of the chapter... Tyrion was the last to retire as always. As he stepped into the shelter him men had built for him, he paused and look back at Jon Snow. The boy stood near the fire, his face still and hard, looking deep into the flames. Tyrion Lannister smiled sadly and went to bed.

i ask myself these questions. Why did GRRM need to mention their full names at the end? and why is T smiling sadly? first of all how in the hell do you even do that

[corbon]

" Lord Stannis was caught between your father and the fire. It's said the Imp set the river itself aflame." Jamie saw green flames reaching up into the sky higher than the tallest towers, as burning men screamed in the streets. I have dreamed this dream before. It was almost funny, but there was no one to share the joke.

a quote i just read from SoS when Jamie's hand is being cleaned by Qyburn at HH. It seems even jamie can't help from making a connection to tyrion's actions and aery's. i see a clue, what do you see?

I see nothing at all. We had Tyrion's POV and he didn't have any particular fascination for the wildfyre, or particualr desire to burn everything, just a tool he could use in the job he was assigned to.

If anyone gets dodgy-Aerys vibes from Wildfyre its Cersei, seemingly sexually aroused when they burned the Tower of the Hand down with wildfyre.

here is the unconvincing quote from GoT when Jon Targaryen and Tyrion Targaryen are travelling to the wall...

" I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Somtimes i'd imagine my father burning. At other times my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret you dreamt the same kind of dream." " No," Jon Snow said horrified. " I wouldn't..."No? Never?" Tyrion raised an eyebrow.

then a lil later in chapter... Tyrion grinned at him. " That's good Bastard. Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it." " Most men," the boy said. " But not you." " No," Tyrion admitted, " Not me. I seldom dream of dragons anymore. There are no dragons."

Yep, both of these are well known and definitely factored in to the theory. As are many more similar tidbits.

and finally at the end of the chapter... Tyrion was the last to retire as always. As he stepped into the shelter him men had built for him, he paused and look back at Jon Snow. The boy stood near the fire, his face still and hard, looking deep into the flames. Tyrion Lannister smiled sadly and went to bed.

i ask myself these questions. Why did GRRM need to mention their full names at the end? and why is T smiling sadly? first of all how in the hell do you even do that

Smiling sadly is easy - its a smile that touches no more than the mouth, while the eyes and posture remain melancholy.

But I've not the faintest idea where you are trying to go with this scene?

[Woman of War]

I see nothing at all. We had Tyrion's POV and he didn't have any particular fascination for the wildfyre, or particualr desire to burn everything, just a tool he could use in the job he was assigned to.

If anyone gets dodgy-Aerys vibes from Wildfyre its Cersei, seemingly sexually aroused when they burned the Tower of the Hand down with wildfyre.

Smiling sadly is easy - its a smile that touches no more than the mouth, while the eyes and posture remain melancholy.

Not everyone with one Targaeryen parent has to be crazy. :)

Tyrion, given what he had to endure during childhood, seems to be metally remarkably sane still. He may be a somewhat disturbed personality but if he had an above average tendency to madness, given his life he would have gone over the edge a long time ago.

But this does not prove that he is NOT Targaeryen. It proves that he has some inner strength, Dany has strength as well, she may have magic related to fire but she shows no sign of being perversely fascinated by it. Not Targaeryen?

[corbon]

Not everyone with one Targaeryen parent has to be crazy. :)

Tyrion, given what he had to endure during childhood, seems to be metally remarkably sane still. He may be a somewhat disturbed personality but if he had an above average tendency to madness, given his life he would have gone over the edge a long time ago.

But this does not prove that he is NOT Targaeryen. It proves that he has some inner strength, Dany has strength as well, she may have magic related to fire but she shows no sign of being perversely fascinated by it. Not Targaeryen?

Agreed. I'm just pointing out that Tyrion's use of wildfyre to defend KL doesn't, at least to me, show any pointer at all towards some predilection for pyromania as was claimed.

As an aside, I noted that Cersei did show a 'strange' response to wildfyre, one very reminiscent of Aerys. And that some people consider that a clue toward Aerys being her (and by extension, Jaime's) father.

[Woman of War]

Agreed. I'm just pointing out that Tyrion's use of wildfyre to defend KL doesn't, at least to me, show any pointer at all towards some predilection for pyromania as was claimed.

As an aside, I noted that Cersei did show a 'strange' response to wildfyre, one very reminiscent of Aerys. And that some people consider that a clue toward Aerys being her (and by extension, Jaime's) father.

I agree here, Martin has made Cersei's infatuation with fire quite clear. Either Aerys is her daddy or Martin takes that pyromania as general metaphor for being disturbed.

Actually I am very willing to be surprised if Tyrion is Aerys' son. Fighting vehemently against or in favor of it has the haut gout of tunnel vision self spoilering. Happy speculation is fine but I want to keep all options open in my mind, I want to be surprised either this or that way. :)

[theREALjonsnow]

just another quote from Storm of Swords i came across today... this one is a conversation Jon Snow and Ygritte after they arrive at Queenscrown:

" I have never seen a dragon." " no one has. The last dragons died a hundred years ago or more. But this was before that." " Queen Alysanne, you say?" " Good Queen Alysanne, they called her later. One of the castles on the wall was named for her as well. Queensgate. Before her visit they called it Snowgate." " If she was so good, she should have torn the wall down." No, he thought. The wall protects the realm. From the others... and from -you and your kind as well, sweetling. " I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me-"

so yea in more than halfway through book 3 GRRM refers back to the quote i listed above and you don't have the faintest idea what he is getting at? i do

[Ghost's Shadow]

Jon Snow will become Daenerys' Queen?

:ack:

[Amoracchius]

just another quote from Storm of Swords i came across today... this one is a conversation Jon Snow and Ygritte after they arrive at Queenscrown:

" I have never seen a dragon." " no one has. The last dragons died a hundred years ago or more. But this was before that." " Queen Alysanne, you say?" " Good Queen Alysanne, they called her later. One of the castles on the wall was named for her as well. Queensgate. Before her visit they called it Snowgate." " If she was so good, she should have torn the wall down." No, he thought. The wall protects the realm. From the others... and from -you and your kind as well, sweetling. " I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me-"

so yea in more than halfway through book 3 GRRM refers back to the quote i listed above and you don't have the faintest idea what he is getting at? i do

I really don't understand your hostility. I see your points and I said I was due for a reread, but right now I'm not convinced that Tyrion is a Targaryan. You are convinced. People are allowed to disagree.

[theREALjonsnow]

But I've not the faintest idea where you are trying to go with this scene?

i really don't understand how using your own words makes me hostile, maybe you should be less defensive. We disagree yet i am the only one currently reading the book posting quotes to try to determine if A+J=T is really true. I am convinced that GRRM uses Jamie and Jon POV's to give hints at Tyrion's ancestry. Why does jamie need to compare Tyrion to Aerys after he is told about blackwater? Why does Jon in the middle of his secret wildling mission feel the need to tell Ygritte about the Imp's dragon dreams? if anybody has any helpful insight please feel free to comment

[Amoracchius]

i really don't understand how using your own words makes me hostile, maybe you should be less defensive. We disagree yet i am the only one currently reading the book posting quotes to try to determine if A+J=T is really true. I am convinced that GRRM uses Jamie and Jon POV's to give hints at Tyrion's ancestry. Why does jamie need to compare Tyrion to Aerys after he is told about blackwater? Why does Jon in the middle of his secret wildling mission feel the need to tell Ygritte about the Imp's dragon dreams? if anybody has any helpful insight please feel free to comment

Look who you just quoted. Is my handle "corbon"? No, it's not. You are getting snippy with the wrong person.

[theREALjonsnow]

speaking to a faceless man that disagrees with you would make anybody snippy but my original quote of "and you don't have the faintest idea what he is getting at? i do" was directed at corbon yet you thought it was meant for you? i am confused now who is supposed to be mad...

[Amoracchius]

speaking to a faceless man that disagrees with you would make anybody snippy but my original quote of "and you don't have the faintest idea what he is getting at? i do" was directed at corbon yet you thought it was meant for you? i am confused now who is supposed to be mad...

Well, it wasn't in quotes and you'd already directed some snark at me once in this thread so, yes, I thought that comment was directed at me. I'll admit that I got defensive when you appeared to be escalating things and for that I apologize. However, pointing out that your hostility was meant for someone else really doesn't make it any better that your response to disagreement is hostility. Moreover, if "speaking to a faceless man that disagrees with you" really bothers you that much, I don't know what to say except maybe these forums aren't the right place for you.

[theREALjonsnow]

Well, it wasn't in quotes and you'd already directed some snark at me once in this thread so, yes, I thought that comment was directed at me. I'll admit that I got defensive when you appeared to be escalating things and for that I apologize. However, pointing out that your hostility was meant for someone else really doesn't make it any better that your response to disagreement is hostility. Moreover, if "speaking to a faceless man that disagrees with you" really bothers you that much, I don't know what to say except maybe these forums aren't the right place for you.

Valar dohaeris

[corbon]

speaking to a faceless man that disagrees with you would make anybody snippy but my original quote of "and you don't have the faintest idea what he is getting at? i do" was directed at corbon yet you thought it was meant for you? i am confused now who is supposed to be mad...

No one.

I just have no idea what the relevance of that particular scene you brought up was. Jon is introspectively staring at the flames (as one does around a campfire at night - I certainly have) and Tyrions smiles sadly at him. How does that point toward Tyrion being a Targ in any way at all?

I addressed the others, most of which are already included the the wider general analysis.