A + J = T

[Newstar]

also you think a overwhelming amount of evidence that Tyrion is a Targ is discredited by a tiny GRRM quote taken out of context? ill stick to his penchant for pyromania and his inability to sleep without prophetic dreams as my textual keys to his lineage...

GRRM is pretty careful with his words, as most writers are. :D I think his reference to "Tyrion's father" naming Tyrion and "Ned" naming Jon was entirely intentional.

Also, as others have pointed out, Targs hardly have the monopoly on dreams that seem to have prophetic elements. Theon has a dream prophesying the Red Wedding, for one.

[theREALjonsnow]

" The Lannisters were an old family, tracing their decent back to Lann the Clever, a trickster from the Age of Heroes who was no doubt as legendary as Bran the Builder, though far more beloved of singers and taletellers. In the songs, Lann was the fellow who winkled the Casterlys out of Casterly Rock with no weapon but his wits, and stole gold from the sun to brighten his curly hair." GOT Eddard 21

" no more real than the ghost of Lann the Clever that some claim haunts Casterly Rock, even so he held his tounge." ADWD Tyrion 8

" Fair-haired, tall, and handsome, the Lannisters are the blood of Andal adventurers who carved out a mighty kingdom in the western hills and valleys. Through the female line they boast of descent from Lann the Clever, the legendary trickster of the Age of Heroes. The gold of Casterly Rock and the Golden Tooth has made them the wealthiest of the Great houses. Their sigil is a golden lion upon a crimson field. The Lannister words are Hear Me Roar!" Appendix House Lannister GOT

" This is Andalos, my friend. The Land your Andals came from. They took it form the hairy men who were here before them, cousins to the hairy men of Ib. The heart of Hugor's ancient realm lies north of us, but we are passing thought its southern marches. Andalos. the Faith taught that the seven themselves had once wallked the hills of Andalos in human form. The father reached his hand into the heavens and pulled down seven stars, Tyrion recited from memory, and one by one he set them on the brow of Hugor of the Hill to make a glowing crown." ADWD Tyrion 2

" What sort of gods make rats and plagues and dwarfs? Another passage from the Seven Pointed Star came back to him. The maid broght him forth a girl as supple as a willow with eyes like deep blue pools, and Hugor declared that he would have her for his bride. So the mother made her fertile, and the Crone fortold that she would bear the king four and fourty might sons. The Warrior gave strength to their arms, whilst the smith wrought for each a suit of iron plates." ADWD Tyrion 2

" If walls could keep us small, peasants would be tiny and kings as large as giants, said Ser Jorah, yet i have seen men born in hovels, and dwarfs who dwelt in castles. Men are men, whitebeard replied. Dragons are Dragons." SOS Dany 8

" Why do you read so much? Tyrion looked up at the sound of the voice. Jon Snow was standing a few feet away, regarding him curiously. He closed the book on a finger and said, Look at me and tell me what you see. The boy looked at him suspiciously. Is this some kind of trick? I see you Tyrion Lannister. Tyrion sighed, You are remarkably polite for a bastard, Snow. What you see is a dwarf." GOT Tyrion 13

" What are you reading about? he asked. Dragons, Tyrion told him. What good is that? There are no more dragons," the boy said with the easy certainty of you. So they say sad isn't it? When i was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own. You did? the boy asked suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him..." GOT Tyrion 13

" Oh yes. Even a stunted twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's seated on a dragon's back. I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning, at other times my sister." GOT Tyrion 13

" When he was still a lonely child in the depths of Casterly Rock, he oft rode dragons through the nights, pretending he was some lost Targaryen princeling, or Valyrian dragonlord soaring high o'er fields and moutains." ADWD Tyrion 21

" Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. Don't look at me that way bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamnt the same kind of dreams.No, Jon Snow said horrified, I wouldn't... No? Never? Tyrion raised an eyebrow..." GOT Tyrion 13

" Alas I am quite dragonless. I suppose I could have dipped Pycelle in wildfire and set him ablaze. Would the Citadel have preferred that?" Tyrion ASOS 12

" Tyrion grinned at him. That's good bastard. Most men would rather deny a hard truth rather than face it. Most men, the boy said, but not you. No, Tyrion admitted. Not me. I seldom dream of dragons anymore. There are no more dragons." GOT Tyrion 13

" One by one the company drifted off to sleep, all but Jon Snow, who had drawn the night's first watch. Tyrion was last to retire as always. As he stepped into the shelter his men had built for him, he paused and looked back at Jon Snow. The boy stood near the fire, his face still and hard, looking deep into the flames. Tyrion Lannister smiled sadly and went to bed." GOT Tyrion 13

" Moqorro remained beside the night fire, as he did every night. The red priest rested by day but kept vigil through the dark hours, to tend to his sacred flames so that the sun might return to them at dawn. Tyrion squatted across from him and warmed his hands against the night's chill. Moqorro took no notice of him for several moments. He was staring into the flickering flames,lost in some vision." ADWD Tyrion 33

" After a time the priest raised his eyes to meet the dwarf's. Hugor Hill, Have you come to pray with me? What do you see in those flames? Dragons, said Moqorro in the common tongue of Westeros." ADWD 33

" Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark, and you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all." ADWD Tyrion 33

" When the magister drifted off to sleep with the wine jar at his elbow, Tyrion crept across the pillows to work it loose from its fleshy prison and pour a cup. He drained it down, and yawned, and filled it once again. If i drink enough fire wine, he told himself, perhaps I will dream of dragons." ADWD Tyrion 5

" More wine please. He held out his cup. As Rykker filled it for him, Bowen Marsh said, You have a great thirst for a small man. Oh, I think that Lord Tyrion is quite a large man, maester Aemon said from the far end of the table. He spoke softly, yet the high officers of the Night's Watch all fell quiet, the better to hear what the ancient had to say. I think he is a giant come among us, here at the end of the world." GOT Tyrion 21

" That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother , Jamie , hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping." ADWD Tyrion 5

" Tyrion answered gently. I've been called many things my lord, but giant is seldom one of them. Nonetheless, Maester Aemon said as his clouded milk white eyes moved to Tyrion's face, I think its true." GOT Tyrion 21

" For once, Tyrion Lannister found himself at a loss for words. He could only bow his head politely and say, You are too kind Maester Aemon. The blind man smiled. He was a tiny thing, wrinled and hairless, shrunken beneath the weight of a hundred years so that his maester's collar with its links of many metals hung loose about his throat. I have been called many things, my lord he said, but kind is seldom one of them. This time Tyrion led the laughter..." GOT Tyrion 21

" He had drunk too much last night. I dreamed about the queen, he said. I was on my knees before her,swearing my alligence, but she mistook me for my brother, Jamie, and fed me to her dragons. Let us hope that dream was not prophetic. You are a clever Imp, just as Varys said." ADWD Tyrion 21

" At long last father? Valyrian steel blades were scarce and costly, yet thousands remained in the world, perhaps two hundred in the Seven Kingdoms alone. It had always irked his father that none had belonged to House Lannister. The old Kings of the Rock had owned such a weapon, but the greatsword Brightroar had been lost when the second King Tommen carried it back to Valyria on his fool's quest. He had never returned; nor had Uncle Gery, the youngest and most reckless of his father's brothers, who had gone seeking after the lost sword some eight years past." SOS Tyrion 32

" Almost a decade had passed since the Laughing Lion headed out from Lannisport, and Gerion had never returned. The men Lord Tywin sent to seek after him had traced his course as far as Volantis, where half his crew had deserted him and he had bought slaves to replace them. No free man would willingly sign aboard a ship whose captain spoke openly of his intent to sail into the Smoking Sea." ADWD Tyrion 33

" Gerion made japes. Better to mock the game than play and lose." AFFC Jamie 33

" Once, when his uncles asked him what gift he wanted for his nameday, he begged for a dragon. It wouldn't need be a big one. It could be little like i am. His uncles Gerion thought that was the funniest thing he had ever heard, but his uncle Tygett said, The last dragon died a century ago lad. That had seemed so monstorously unfair that the boy had cried himself to sleep that night." ADWD Tyrion 21

" but every little girl needs a big brother to protect her. Tywin was big even when he was little. Who will protect us now? Jamie kissed her cheek. He left a son. Aye he did that is what i fear the most, in truth. That was a queer remark..." AFFC Jamie 33

" Jamie, she said tugging at his ear. Sweetling I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not where that cloak. but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years." AFFC Jamie 33

" The old Valyrian road glimmered ahead of them like a long silver ribbon winding through wood and dale. For a little while Tyrion Lannister felt almost at peace." ADWD Tyrion 8

" An uncle of mine gave them to me when I was just a boy, said Tyrion. I read them until they fell to pieces. His uncle Gerion liked to set him on the table during feasts and make him recite them. I liked that well enough didn't I? Standing there amongst the trenchers with every eye upon me, proving what a clever little Imp i was." ADWD Tyrion 8

" Sleep had never come easily to Tyrion Lannister. Aboard that ship it seldom came at all, though from time to time he managed to drink sufficient wine to pass out for awhile. At least he did not dream. He had dreamed enough for one small life. And such follies: love, justice,friendship,glory. As well as being tall. It was all beyond his reach, Tyrion knew now. But he did not know where whores go." ADWD Tyrion 2

" Wherever whores go, his father had said. His last words, that's what they were. The crossbow thrummed, Lord Tywin sat down, and Tyrion Lannister found himself waddling through the darkness with Varys at his side. He must have clambered back down the shaft, two hundred and thirty rungs to where orange embers glowed in the mouth of an iron dragon. He remembered none of it. Only the sound the crossbow made, and the stink of his father's bowels opening. Even in his dying, he found a way to shit on me." ADWD Tyrion 2

" So to mark his manhood, Tyrion was given charge of all the drains and cisterns within Casterly Rock. Perhaps he hoped I'd fall into one. But Tywin had been disappointed in that. The drains never drained half so well as when he had charge of them. I need a cup of wine, to wash the taste of Tywin from my mouth, a skin of wine would serve me better." ADWD Tyrion 8

"I have a question too, said Egg. I begin to understand why your father was so willing to be rid of you. What more would you have of me, cousin? Who took the dragon's egg? There were guards at the door, and more guards on the steps, no way anyone could have gotten into Lord Butterwell's bedchamber unobserved. Lord Rivers smiled. Were I to guess, I'd say someone climbed up inside the privy shaft. The privy shaft was too small to climb. For a man. A child could do it. Or a dwarf, Dunk blurted. A thousand eyes, and one. Why shouldn't some of them belong to a troupe of comic dwarfs?" The Mystery Knight Ending

" I killed Shae too, he confessed to Varys. You knew what she was. I did, but I never knew what he was." Varys tittered, And now you do." ADWD Tyrion 2

" How is it a brothel happens to have a secret entrance? The tunnel was dug for another King's Hand, whose honor would not allow him to enter such a house openly. Chataya has closely guarded the knowledge of its existence. And yet you knew of it. Little birds fly through many a dark tunnel. Careful, the steps are steep" COK Tyrion 15

" I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me..." SOS Jon

these are the quotes any good reader of the book picks up on. Also in the Hedge Knight egg has a brother name dareon the drunken who actions are directly comparable to that of Tyrion. He is a targ then so is Tyrion

[theREALjonsnow]

No one.

I just have no idea what the relevance of that particular scene you brought up was. Jon is introspectively staring at the flames (as one does around a campfire at night - I certainly have) and Tyrions smiles sadly at him. How does that point toward Tyrion being a Targ in any way at all?

I addressed the others, most of which are already included the the wider general analysis.

when one plays close attention to the text the phasre " i used to stare at flames and watch my sister and father burning." Jon has been recently lied to seemingly by his whole family. Tyrion knows his secret and was the only one who told him the truth about what he was getting in to. Bastards and dwarfs, so when jon stares at the fire at the end of the chapter tyrion smiles sadly because he knows jon is thinking of his entire family being burned alive in the flames.

at least that is how i read and understand the chapter.

[Woman of War]

Thank you for that collection of quotes, REALjonsnow, interesting

[theREALjonsnow]

Thank you for that collection of quotes, REALjonsnow, interesting

your welcome. i had alot of fun doing that. i am currently doing the same for Sandor to prove he is the Seven gods who are one, a la, The Stranger re-incarnated somehow by COTF to protect the starks. he always says i am no true knight, but he is the ONLY true knight in westeros during current events.

[Mithras]

What if the Lannister siblings all have these Targ weirdness from the same drops of blood as Brown Ben?

[corbon]

when one plays close attention to the text the phasre " i used to stare at flames and watch my sister and father burning." Jon has been recently lied to seemingly by his whole family. Tyrion knows his secret and was the only one who told him the truth about what he was getting in to. Bastards and dwarfs, so when jon stares at the fire at the end of the chapter tyrion smiles sadly because he knows jon is thinking of his entire family being burned alive in the flames.

at least that is how i read and understand the chapter.

Err, ok. To me thats waaay out there (why I couldn't understand what you were getting at - its so far out there I couldn't even think of it!), into serious wish fulfillment territory. I do not see any way Jon is thinking of his whole family burning. He still very much loves them and misses them. That doesn't mean he hasn't in the past at times thought of some of them burning, probably when he was feeling most mistreated and hurt but he knows that he chose this and his famiy are not to blame. His attitude of horror at Tyrion's (true) suggestion that he had thought of it shows he isnt thinking that way now. He's not bitter and morose at his life's choices and options, not angry and hateful toward his family at this time.

All I see is a boy who has just woken up to the reality of what where he is going and what he is committing too and what his life-options are, and being introspective around a camp fire. As one would.

Tyrion smiles sadly because he understands how poor Jon's options are. Thats all.

Great collection of quotes BTW. I'll comment on them in a separate post, and add some more for you to look for and add to the collection. I guess you have e-books or something that give you the facility to find and cut/paste these quotes, well done.

I'll rephrase. Big collection of quotes. But very very few of them appear to have any relevance at all to Tyrion being a Targ (or not). Not even by the imaginative standards you've already set.

Yes, Tyrion used to dream of dragons.

Yes, Tyrion had a particular fascination with fire, especially dragonfire, even to the extent of dreaming of burning his father and sister.

Yes he used to pretend he was a lost Targaryen princeling.

Yes Moquorro sees dragons, all types. And Tyrion amongst them (is that inclusive or exclusive 'amongst', we cannot tell for sure).

Yes Tyrion is a 'large'/giant man who casts a 'large' shadow, maybe even a kingly? one (very early AGoT chpater when Jon comes out of the feats hall at interfell and talks with Tyrion).

Yes he asked for a dragon as a gift as a child.

Yes, Tywin left 'a' son.

Yes Tywin resented Genna saying Tyrion was like him and Jaime was not.

Yes Tyrion has read everything he can get his hands on about dragons and is one of the worlds foremost experts on them.

Yes, dwarves probably stile the dragon's egg from Butterwell's. What relevance is that to Tyrion being a Targ? He's not related to those dwarves, and they were nothing more than hired hands anyway, not family.

No, Varys does not know Tyrion is a Targ, just that Tywin was a whore-user and hypocrit.

I suggest you look at Tyrion's reactions to the dragon skulls - very interesting, especially compared to Arya's reaction.

I suggest you look closely at Lannister and Targ hair colour, and incidences of heterochromia (Euron Greyjoy appears to have a bad hyphema, not heterochromia).

I suggest you look at the connection between Aerys and Joanna.

I suggest you look at Tywin's treatment of and relationship to Tyrion.

I suggest you look at the coincidence of the three major characters from the three major family-plot lines all having had their mothers die at their birth. And one definitely being a Targ, the next 99.9% certainly being a Targ and Tyrion, well...

All of these thing contain actual pointers and possible clues toward the A+J=T theory. Most of your quotes did not.

[theREALjonsnow]

i about to blow people's minds with another one iv'e been working on...

basically Bloodraven ( Lord Brynden Rivers) is trying to help bran prevent Jon Stark/Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister/Targaryen from killing each other for Dany's Targaryens love. Just like Lord Rivers of House Blackwood and Lord Rivers HouseBracken did over Shiera Seastar, 150 years ago... oh yea and varys wargs the balerion black dread cat in the red keep and he might be a faceless man represents total world destruction blackfyre!

[theREALjonsnow]

Err, ok. To me thats waaay out there (why I couldn't understand what you were getting at - its so far out there I couldn't even think of it!), into serious wish fulfillment territory. I do not see any way Jon is thinking of his whole family burning. He still very much loves them and misses them. That doesn't mean he hasn't in the past at times thought of some of them burning, probably when he was feeling most mistreated and hurt but he knows that he chose this and his famiy are not to blame. His attitude of horror at Tyrion's (true) suggestion that he had thought of it shows he isnt thinking that way now. He's not bitter and morose at his life's choices and options, not angry and hateful toward his family at this time.

All I see is a boy who has just woken up to the reality of what where he is going and what he is committing too and what his life-options are, and being introspective around a camp fire. As one would.

Tyrion smiles sadly because he understands how poor Jon's options are. Thats all.

Great collection of quotes BTW. I'll comment on them in a separate post, and add some more for you to look for and add to the collection. I guess you have e-books or something that give you the facility to find and cut/paste these quotes, well done.

I'll rephrase. Big collection of quotes. But very very few of them appear to have any relevance at all to Tyrion being a Targ (or not). Not even by the imaginative standards you've already set.

Yes, Tyrion used to dream of dragons.

Yes, Tyrion had a particular fascination with fire, especially dragonfire, even to the extent of dreaming of burning his father and sister.

Yes he used to pretend he was a lost Targaryen princeling.

Yes Moquorro sees dragons, all types. And Tyrion amongst them (is that inclusive or exclusive 'amongst', we cannot tell for sure).

Yes Tyrion is a 'large'/giant man who casts a 'large' shadow, maybe even a kingly? one (very early AGoT chpater when Jon comes out of the feats hall at interfell and talks with Tyrion).

Yes he asked for a dragon as a gift as a child.

Yes, Tywin left 'a' son.

Yes Tywin resented Genna saying Tyrion was like him and Jaime was not.

Yes Tyrion has read everything he can get his hands on about dragons and is one of the worlds foremost experts on them.

Yes, dwarves probably stile the dragon's egg from Butterwell's. What relevance is that to Tyrion being a Targ? He's not related to those dwarves, and they were nothing more than hired hands anyway, not family.

No, Varys does not know Tyrion is a Targ, just that Tywin was a whore-user and hypocrit.

I suggest you look at Tyrion's reactions to the dragon skulls - very interesting, especially compared to Arya's reaction.

I suggest you look closely at Lannister and Targ hair colour, and incidences of heterochromia (Euron Greyjoy appears to have a bad hyphema, not heterochromia).

I suggest you look at the connection between Aerys and Joanna.

I suggest you look at Tywin's treatment of and relationship to Tyrion.

I suggest you look at the coincidence of the three major characters from the three major family-plot lines all having had their mothers die at their birth. And one definitely being a Targ, the next 99.9% certainly being a Targ and Tyrion, well...

All of these thing contain actual pointers and possible clues toward the A+J=T theory. Most of your quotes did not

one of the "actual pointers" that you are falling to mention is the fact that Tyrion is a drunk. being a drunk who has prophetic dreams is directly comparable to the long dead Daeron the Drunken who was a brother to Maester Aemon of castle black. Tyrion grows up drinking, intentionally or unintentionally due to his Targaryen'ness. he drinks to dream or drinks because he dreams either way there are so many quotes to his preferences on wine that it would be impossible to list them all.

also i fully looked into and described Tywins treatment of Tyrion. as a child he wanted to travel to Valyria with his uncle to look for a lost sword (very targ-ish thing to do), yet was given the sewers of casterly rock to mangage. fast forward 15 years and tyrion like whores just like his daddy (not actual father) did ( varys tells us so plainly or not depending on your understanding of text) and climbs through a secrect tunnel in the red keep to kill his dad (again not actual father but if you consider Tywin's betrayal of Aerys II through Jamie then it makes perfect sense) on the shitter because he was fucking his whore. (this is how the story of butterwells's imp is a connection/hint)

aerys II has the last laugh in regards to the rivalry between himself and tywin which had been going on since they were children. you killed me because i trusted you and let your son in a white cloak get to close, and i killed you because you treated my son like shit

[Amoracchius]

one of the "actual pointers" that you are falling to mention is the fact that Tyrion is a drunk. being a drunk who has prophetic dreams is directly comparable to the long dead Daeron the Drunken who was a brother to Maester Aemon of castle black. Tyrion grows up drinking, intentionally or unintentionally due to his Targaryen'ness. he drinks to dream or drinks because he dreams either way there are so many quotes to his preferences on wine that it would be impossible to list them all.

Again, I have to disagree here. As I mentioned up-thread, none of Tyrion's dreams have come true, so I think it's premature to call them prophetic. If the dreams aren't prophetic, then the only thing Tyrion has in common with Daeron the Drunken is their love of alcohol, something they share with Ser Dontos, The Hound, Merrett Frey, Greatjon Umber, and tons of other people in Westeros who are certainly not Targaryans. Also, besides Daeron are there other Targaryans who were notorious drunks?

[theREALjonsnow]

i guess we have a different different definition of "prophetic". i don't require his dreams to exactly in perfect detail predict what will happen in future chapters. is that what you mean by none of his dreams have come true?

it isn't the only thing they would have in common. THE SUBJECT MATTER IS STILL DRAGONS. your definition of prophetic must be included for the theory to be proved false.

Daeron The Drunken loving dornish reds is a call back to Daeron the Young Dragon conquering dorne. there is another person who constantly mentions that this particular beverage is his favorite. i'll give you one guess who it is....

[Amoracchius]

i guess we have a different different definition of "prophetic". i don't require his dreams to exactly in perfect detail predict what will happen in future chapters. is that what you mean by none of his dreams have come true?

it isn't the only thing they would have in common. THE SUBJECT MATTER IS STILL DRAGONS. your definition of prophetic must be included for the theory to be proved false.

Daeron The Drunken loving dornish reds is a call back to Daeron the Young Dragon conquering dorne. there is another person who constantly mentions that this particular beverage is his favorite. i'll give you one guess who it is....

My definition of prophetic is pretty simple: "correctly stating what will happen in the future." Obviously, I do not mean a "perfect detail" prediction. As we've seen with Jojen and Daeron and others, more often than not, the prophesy is metaphorical rather than literal (The sea flooding Winterfell, a dragon dying on top of Dunk), but the key is that whatever happens in the dream then happens in reality. While Tyrion has had some interesting dreams, unless I am mistaken, none of them have predicted later events.

Maybe one could argue that Tyrion's mention to Jon that he used to stare at fires and imagine his father or sister burning was a fulfilled by his murder of his Tywin, but the fact that he says "imagined" (Targs are known for prophetic dreams, not imaginations, right?) hurts that argument, along with the fact that Cersei is still very much alive (though, of course that could, and probably will change). To me, this sounds a lot more like a miserable kid having some cruel thoughts than it does a young prophet seeing into the future.

Is it impossible that Tyrion has the gift of prophesy? Of course not, (I'd be psyched we got to see him fighting alongside Barristan with dragons flying overhead in TWOW!) but my point is, so far, none of his dreams have actually come true, so let's stop calling them prophetic.

[theREALjonsnow]

My definition of prophetic is pretty simple: "correctly stating what will happen in the future." Obviously, I do not mean a "perfect detail" prediction. As we've seen with Jojen and Daeron and others, more often than not, the prophesy is metaphorical rather than literal (The sea flooding Winterfell, a dragon dying on top of Dunk), but the key is that whatever happens in the dream then happens in reality. While Tyrion has had some interesting dreams, unless I am mistaken, none of them have predicted later events.

Maybe one could argue that Tyrion's mention to Jon that he used to stare at fires and imagine his father or sister burning was a fulfilled by his murder of his Tywin, but the fact that he says "imagined" (Targs are known for prophetic dreams, not imaginations, right?) hurts that argument, along with the fact that Cersei is still very much alive (though, of course that could, and probably will change). To me, this sounds a lot more like a miserable kid having some cruel thoughts than it does a young prophet seeing into the future.

Is it impossible that Tyrion has the gift of prophesy? Of course not, (I'd be psyched we got to see him fighting alongside Barristan with dragons flying overhead in TWOW!) but my point is, so far, none of his dreams have actually come true, so let's stop calling them prophetic.

I can call them whatever I want. I think he has the blood of old valyria in his body and this causes him to dream the way he does.

" I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me..." SOS Jon. ...that he was a Targaryen.

anything else?

[Amoracchius]

I can call them whatever I want. I think he has the blood of old valyria in his body and this causes him to dream the way he does.

" I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me..." SOS Jon. ...that he was a Targaryen.

anything else?

Thanks, Humpty Dumpty.

Seriously, if you're only on here to assert your opinions as fact and yell at those who disagree or question your assertions, you are wasting everyone's time, yours most of all.

[theREALjonsnow]

Thanks, Humpty Dumpty.

Seriously, if you're only on here to assert your opinions as fact and yell at those who disagree or question your assertions, you are wasting everyone's time, yours most of all.

what are you doing? Valar doaeris Valar morghulis et tempus fugit

[Beathag]

This speculation is fascinating and may have merit. But there is a passage where Lady Genna (Tywin's sister) is talking with Jamie about Tywin explaining to him that Tywin had always protected her:

but every little girl needs a big brother to protect her. Tywin was big even when he was little.” She gave a sigh. “Who will protect us now?”

Jamie kissed her cheek. “He left a son.”

“Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth.”

That was a queer remark. “Why should you fear?”

“Jaime,” she said, tugging on his ear, “sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna’s breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there’s some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear the cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you. I said so once to your father’s face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years.”

Who would know more about the hidden events within the Lannister's than Tywin's little sister? This passage tells more than just who Tryion's father was. This passage is also why I don't think Tyrion is Targaryen.

This exchange has lead me to think Jaime and Cersei are not Tywin's, and explains Tywin's hatred of Tyrion. But I am also a little tired of trying to find the Targs lurking everywhere...

[theREALjonsnow]

i think its important to mention that she compares jamie to all three of his lannister uncles and their respective traits...

if we also keep in mind that a tywin's cousin was joanna lannister ( albiet from a lesser house) then the comments start to make sense in my opinion. joanna + tywin equals the twins, who practice incest similar to their parents (cousins) not targs...

tyrion on the other hand has always been the secret targ lurking tall in the shadows...

i said so to you father's face hints at that she might have known/had suspicion/found out that tyrion was not his...

so then the phrase of (aye he left a son.that is what i fear most in truth. a queer remark.) at the beginning of the quote takes on new meaning... (if you want it too)

[corbon]

This exchange has lead me to think Jaime and Cersei are not Tywin's, and explains Tywin's hatred of Tyrion. But I am also a little tired of trying to find the Targs lurking everywhere...

sigh

[theREALjonsnow]

sigh

not sure if you did that intentionally but somehow you found my first post from two years ago lol thanks!

even back then i knew their wasn't something right about our imp of CR...

[Dagda]

not sure if you did that intentionally but somehow you found my first post from two years ago lol thanks!

even back then i knew their wasn't something right about our imp of CR...

I'm following your logic, but it still is a big wrench in the works that Tyrion is a family name, whereas the twins don't seem to have Traditional Lannister names. If Tyrion Targ, then why?