A + J = T

[theREALjonsnow]

do i really have to answer that question?

no i do not agree with you that his name is a big wrench in the works that disproves the numerous hints that he is...

[Dagda]

do i really have to answer that question?

no i do not agree with you that his name is a big wrench in the works that disproves the numerous hints that he is...

Yes, that question has to be answered. I'm with you on the theory since Tyrion's mismatched eyes correspond to only one other character in the novels, a Targ bastard, but the name question is still a huge sticking point. Names are a key element in the world of Westeros, connecting families, and Tyrion having a Lannister name is a big problem.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I do believe Tyrion is Aerys bastard by Joanna. here is my thread about it.

http://asoiaf.wester...ound-270-275al/

I have had a few people tell me it is the most convincing argument they have seen as far as Tyrion goes. Ill post the OP here too, why not? :)

Wiki about Aerys and Tywin. Chronologiocal order.

Aerys II begins his reign 262AL

Aerys II's reign began with great promise. Under his father and grandfather, the court at King's Landing had become stuffy, filled with old men. Aerys II brought sweeping changes, replacing many at court with younger faces. Aerys, impressed by the ruthlessness of the young Lord Tywin Lannister with dealing with houses rebelling against Casterly Rock, named Tywin as the King's Hand.

Cersei and Jaime born 266AL
Feast for Crows Cersei POV—Her grandfather had died when she was only a year old, but she knew the story. Lord Tytos had grown very fat, and his heart burst one daywhen he was climbing the steps to his mistress. Her father was off in King’s Landing when it happened, serving as the Mad King’s Hand. Lord Tywin was often away in Kin’s Landing when she and Jaime were young. If he wept when they brought him word of his father’s death, he did it where no one could see the tears.

The first ten years of Aerys' rule were peaceful. The realm recovered from the tragic events at Summerhall and grew both rich and strong. Closer ties were established with Dorne when Prince Rhaegar was married to Princess Elia Martell (to the disquiet of Lord Tywin, who had hoped to marry his daughter Cersei to Rhaegar). However, around 270 AL some problems arose which turned the character of Aerys' reign into something very different.
However, Aerys came to regret this choice (appointing Tywin hand)- not because of any lack of competence on Tywin's part, but rather the opposite. He proved to be a brilliant administrator, and as Hand his reputation for brutal effectiveness became so well-known and so widely respected that popular rumor held it was Tywin, not Aerys, who truly ruled the realm. (Lord Tywin's captain of the guard, Ser Ilyn Payne, would eventually lose his tongue at Aerys' command for repeating this boast.) Jealous of the respect and fear accorded to Tywin, Aerys resolved to rely less on his Hand.--Wiki

So right here, at this point in the timeline, Aerys decides to lower Tywin in a way that can never be undone. He impregnates Joanna with a Targaryen.

Tyrion Born 274AL—Joanna dies

In 276AL, Lord Tywin staged a tourney in the king's honor. There he proposed a marriage between his daughter Cersei and Prince Rhaegar. However, Aerys' fear of Tywin's power and ambition led him to reject the offer rudely, saying that Tywin was a mere servant of the crown, and no servant's daughter was fit to marry a prince of royal blood. Tywin would not forget the insult.

Clearly something happened Between the years of 270AL and 276AL that changed Aerys’ mind about Tywin Lannister. He began treating him differently, he was the butt of Aerys’ jokes, Aerys lost all respect for him, although Tywin had bailed Aerys out of trouble on more than one occasion. Tywin was a smart, competent and ruthless Hand who Aerys admired and respected enough to make him Hand and the first few years they appeared to have gotten along. But then IMO Aerys could no longer control his crush on Joanna and they had a tryst or he raped her, after that he completely lost respect for Tywin and insulted him every chance he got.
Because Aerys didn’t go officially “mad” until later that same year as the tourney mentioned above when he was imprisoned during the Defiance of Duskendale. So Whatever happened that made Aerys loose all respect for Tywin happened before he officially went crazy in 276AL.
In late 276AL, Lord Denys Darklyn of Duskendale, possibly influenced by his Myrish wife, withheld port taxes from the crown. Eager to demonstrate his ability to handle the situation without the help of his Hand, Aerys decided to settle the issue personally, a decision that would backfire horribly. Taking a small force that included only one Kingsguard knight, Aerys personally marched to Duskendale to arrest and execute Lord Denys. Denys panicked and took the king prisoner. Lord Tywin was left to resolve the crisis himself, amassing an army and laying siege to the town in what became known as the Defiance of Duskendale. The situation remained in a stalemate for six months, with Denys threatening to execute the king at the first sign that Tywin intended to storm the town. Finally, Ser Barristan Selmy of the Kingsguard staged a daring infiltration and managed to rescue the king.—Wiki

281AL Tourney at Harrenhal, Knight of the Laughing Tree, where Jaime was raised to the Kingsgaurd under his fathers extreme duress but silent compliance.
A moon's turn later, Jaime was raised to the Kingsguard by Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower in a ceremony during the Tourney at Harrenhal, making him the youngest Knight to ever to be raised to the order.^[1] That night, however, King Aerys soured the honor by sending him back to King's Landing to guard Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys, depriving him of the chance to participate in Lord Whent's tourney. Jaime realized then that the King had only chosen him for the Kingsguard as a slight against Lord Tywin, of whom Aerys was insanely jealous, to rob him of his heir. Furthermore, the plan failed to bring Jaime and Cersei closer together, as they had intended. When Lord Tywin, furious at this turn of events, resigned as Hand and returned with Cersei to Casterly Rock. Jaime remained at court, guarding the King.—Wiki about Jaime/Aerys/Tywin

Feast for Crows—‘Unbidden, a memory came to her, of the feast King Aerys had thrown when Cersei first came to court, a girl as green as summer grass. Old Merryweather had been nattering about raising the duty on wine when Lord Rykker said, "If we need gold, His grace should sit Lord Tywin on his chamber pot." Aerys and his lickspittles laughed loudly, whilst father stared at Rykker over his wine cup. Long after the merriment had died that gaze had lingered. Rykker turned away, turned back, met Father's eyes, then ignored them, drank a tankard of ale, and stalked off red faced, defeated by a pair of unflinching eyes.’--Cersei about their father.
Lickspittles--Noun
A person who behaves obsequiously to those in power.
.---(meaning people who laugh when their superior laughs, these men were laughing at Tywin because they were following Aerys' lead. As you can see by Rykker's actions they, (the lickspittles) are still scared or at least intimidated by Tywin, but Aerys is not. At this point Tywin is just a big joke to him. No one else in the seven kingdoms laughs at Lord Tywins face that I can recall.

Feast for Crows—‘My lord father had no use for whores, she thought. After our mother died he never touched a woman.—Cesei about her mother and father.

Of course she was wrong, she thought this right after she found Shae’s dead body in her father’s bed, but we all know how rough Tywin Lannister is with whores, so if he found out Joanna had slept with someone else rape or not, there is no telling what he would do. Seems like a pretty good reason for Joanna to keep it a secret from Tywin.

Hints about the marriages of Tywin/Joanna and Aerys/Rhaella
Aerys was born to Prince Jaehaerys, the second son of King Aegon V. While still a teenager, Aerys was married to his sister Rhaella in accordance with the family tradition of dynastic incest. The marriage was arranged by their grandfather the king, who was motivated by a prophecy that he interpreted to mean the Prince that was Promised would be born of their line. According to Ser Barristan Selmy, who was present at the wedding, there was no fondness between the two siblings.--wiki

DWD
“Prince Aerys . . . as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord’s right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the . . . the liberties your father took during the bedding.”--Barristan

Ser Barristan Selmy claimed that in her youth she was in love with Ser Bonifer Hasty, who wore her favor and won a tournament where he named Rhaella Queen of Love and Beauty. The pair had a passionate but ultimately doomed relationship, as Ser Bonifer was of too low birth to be seriously considered as a suitor for a Targaryen princess.

Later in her life, at the command of her father Jaehaerys II, Rhaella married her brother Aerys at some time before 259AL. Jaehaerys was influenced by a woods witch brought to court by Jenny of Oldstones, who prophesied that the Prince that was Promised would be born from their line. According to Ser Barristan, there was no fondness between Aerys and Rhaella on the day of their wedding.
On the same day her grandfather and his eldest son perished in the Tragedy at Summerhall, Aerys became Crown Prince and Rhaella gave birth to their first child, Rhaegar.

In later years, as Aerys' insanity began to set in, he grew sexually abusive toward Rhaella. He developed a sexual fetish for fire and death, only sleeping with Rhaella after he had executed someone by burning. The final time, just before the the queen was sent to Dragonstone to escape the coming siege of King's Landing by the rebels, Jaime Lannister of the Kingsguard recalls listening to Rhaella cry as the king raped her. In the morning, the queen's maids reported seeing scratches, bruises and bite marks all over her body.
According to Barristan Selmy, Rhaella did her best to protect her younger son from the worst of Aerys' excesses, keeping her child oblivious to the fact his father was sliding deeper into madness.
When the city fell two weeks later, she and her younger son Viserys became the last known surviving members of House Targaryen. Rhaella spent the duration of her pregnancy on Dragonstone, where she delivered her third child, Daenerys. She died shortly thereafter from the stress of giving birth.
When she was a princess, her ladies-in-waiting included Lady Joanna Lannister and the mother of Prince Doran Martell.^{—Wiki about Rhaella, Aerys’ wife}

So we know that Aerys and Rhaella’s relationship was not a loving one. We know that he liked to and was aroused by raping women. And to me it seems obvious that he would take liberties with anyone he wanted. And he had no qualms about specifically insulting or embarrassing Tywin Lannister.

Joanna/Tywin--Tywin seldom spoke of his wife but was much saddened by her death. He never remarried. According to his brother Gerion Lannister "The best part of Tywin died with her.’ Kevan later took over Joanna's role as Tywin's most trusted counselor. Wiki
According to Barristan Selmy, Aerys lusted for Joanna Lannister, something that caused further friction between the King and his Hand. At the wedding of Tywin to Joanna, Aerys drunkenly japed about how it was a pity the First Night tradition was banned and took certain liberties in the bedding ritual when the men at the feast had to disrobe the bride.--Wiki
During the Siege of Riverrun Jaime dreams and sees a woman he barely recognizes. She asks if he will forget his father like he has forgotten her. She talks about the future Tywin wanted for his children: his son a knight and his daughter a queen and cries when Jaime replies that they have indeed become that.—Wiki

NO mention of a 3rd dwarf child.

SoS, Tyrion chap 38, Discussion with Oberyn Martell----‘A queer time to come visiting. His mother has dies giving him birth, so the the Martells would have found the Rock deep in morning. His father especially. Lord Tywin seldom spoke of his wife, but Tyrion had heard his uncles talk of the love b/n them. In those days, his father had been Aerys's hand, and many people said that Lord Tywin Lannister ruled the 7 kingdoms, but Lady Joanna ruled lord Tywin. "He was not the same man after she died, Imp,' his uncle Gery told him once. "The best part of him died with her." Gerion had been the youngest of Lord Tytos Lannister's four sons, and the uncle Tyrion liked best.....’
.."I had just been born, what did you expect of me?"
"Enormity," the black-haired prince replied. "You were small, but far-famed. We were in Oldtown at your birth, and all the city talked of was the monster that had been bored to King's Hand, and what such an omen might foretell for the realm."....................Lord Tywin had made himself greater than king Aerys, I heard one begging brother preach, but only a god is meant to stand above a king. You were his curse, a punishment sent by the gods to teach him that he was no better than any other man."......."You did have one evil eye, and some black fuzz on your scalp.......You shrieked, but it was only when your brother Jaime said, 'Leave him be, you're hurting him,' then Cersei let go of you. 'It doesn't matter, ' she told us. 'Everyone says he's like to die soon."

Tyrion Chap 70, CoK, Oberyn and TL----"Were you aware that our mothers knew each other of old?"
"They had been at court together as girls, I seem to recall. Companions to Princess Rhaella?"

These are my reasons that I believe Tyrion is the son of Aerys. It has nothing to do with anything except that something happened which is never explained that made Aeyrs turn on Tywin right around the time of Tyrion's birth. he lost all respect for Tywin and considered him a flat out joke later on. So much so that he refused the offer of Cersei for Rhaegar in an extremely public and embarrassing way for Tywin. What else besides Aerys cuckolding Tywins wife could make him behave this way towards such a powerful, scary man who had helped Aerys and as far as we know had never done anything to Aerys that would incite of all this scorn and ridicule??

[Slayer of Lies]

I'm following your logic, but it still is a big wrench in the works that Tyrion is a family name, whereas the twins don't seem to have Traditional Lannister names. If Tyrion Targ, then why?

Tyrion’s “obviously Lannister” name does not single-handedly wipe out all of the other dragon-loving, blonde-locked, black-and-green-eyed, Targ-prince-dreaming, bacon-burnt-black loving clues. If anything, Tywin chose a Lannister-sounding name because he felt it was the wisest course / best option at the time, whether he knew Aerys fornicated w/ Joanna or not. I mean, what better way for a guy to “claim” Tyrion as his own son than to give him a “traditional-sounding” Lannister name, as opposed to something “nontraditional” like Jaime or Cersei?

I do believe Tyrion is Aerys bastard by Joanna. here is my thread about it.

http://asoiaf.wester...ound-270-275al/

Great post! I think the one point in there that I hadn’t picked up on in previous reads is that Joanna only mentions Tywin speaking of two children, although this could be written off as Tyrion simply not being born yet, as Tywin would have had eight years to speak of his twins with Joanna prior to Tyrion entering the picture.

---

As an apparently “alternative” means of reverse-engineering Tyrion’s lineage, for various reasons I subscribe to the belief that Jon, Dany and Tyrion are the “main characters,” and I tend to work backwards from that premise to arrive the “necessity” of Tyrion also having Targaryen blood.

It isn’t that I want him to be a Targaryen, or think it adds anything to the depth of the story in itself. Instead, I believe he is one of the heads of the dragon, based partly on the tone of the various POV narratives (Tyrion’s apparent infallibility and near-omniscience), and partly on the fact that he was a POV in book (implying endgame forethought on GRRM’s part). Therein, Tyrion turning out to not be at least partially Targaryen in addition to being a head of the dragon would really be two huge missed opportunities in my view, considering we’re solving for the identities of the three heads of the dragon (aka: Targ), and Jon and Dany are apparently the “obvious” ones, with some people seemingly favoring Aegon as well (and ascribing the “cloth dragon” portion of the “slayer of lies” prophecy to someone else).

As I mentioned earlier in this thread (and as most readers know), Jon, Dany and Tyrion certainly have more in common than nearly any other trinity of characters in the books.

• They are all AGOT POVs

• Their mothers died birthing them (assuming R+L=J)

• All of their fathers are dead

• They all live or lived in the shadows in their elder brothers

• They are/were all exiles of a kind

• They’ve worked to save their respective subjects and struggled with the onus of power

• They’ve all had relationships that would be shunned by their peers/elders

• They’ve drawn a following of people considered to be savages

• They’ve all been the target of assassination attempts

• Tyrion is about to be the only character to meet both Jon and Dany

• Etc., etc.

No other three character arcs have as much “obvious stuff” in common (obvious upon multiple reads, at least), and to “ignore” these similarities in solving for a trinity of characters critical to the endgame is a mistake, IMO.

As more fuel for this notion, we can note that the three dragon eggs at Drogo’s funeral pyre were placed on the heart (Dany), loins (Jon), and head (Tyrion), if you accept the potential symbolism herein. As Tyrion is arguably the smartest character in the books, it stands to reason that this early symbolism at the funeral pyre might also imply that Dany and Jon need someone smart like Tyrion to overcome the Others (noting that I also believe the Iron Throne is a “MacGuffin” of sorts, since it seems likely to me that we’ll find out who the throne goes to in a “epilogue” sense near the end of book 7, at which point it won’t necessarily “do” anything).

Additionally, back to Tyrion, if he is the third head of the dragon, considering who’s now deceased in the overarching ASOIAF timeline, this means the surviving POVs from AGOT consist of Sansa, Arya, Bran (definitely all Starks) and Jon, Dany and Tyrion (Seemingly the three heads of the dragon, and possibly all at least part-Targ). That would bear an excellent symmetry, and may later to prove to be something GRRM had planned as early as ASOS (when the three Stark/three Targ POVs first became true, post Red Wedding).

Anyway, there’s always more to say on the subject, but I believe the only person who can talk me out of Tyrion being the third head of the dragon at this point is GRRM.

Secondly, as for the “necessity” of Tyrion being Targaryen, it would seem rather poor writing to me to offer up a character who is one of the heads of the dragon, but require that this character have zero Targaryen blood in a world rife with the very symbolism and frequent double meanings that GRRM implanted in it. I mean, the books are practically called A Son (Jon) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), yet we’ve also got more overarching “on the surface” concepts like “the Others versus the Dragons” built into that same title.

And, yes, we’ve still got GRRM’s quote referencing that “the third [head] will not necessarily BE a Targaryen”, but Tyrion would be a Hill if born a bastard of Aerys, which is a convenient technicality for GRRM to employ in PR to perpetuate the mysterious potential identities of the heads of the dragon to the casual reader.

Meanwhile, it wouldn’t make much sense for Tyrion to be a head of the dragon if he were simply a Lannister and nothing more. There’s no great history of the Lannister helping the Targaryens win thrones. Further, why would Tyrion choose to follow in the footsteps of the father he hates (who aided Aerys) by helping Team Targ reclaim the throne? What motivation does Tyrion “Lannister” have to install anyone other than himself to the throne, without the help of the Targaryens?

In my view, Tyrion is a much stronger character as Targ than a Lannister, because it explains / adds depth to why he visited Jon at the Wall, and why he’s on his way to Dany now, amongst other things.

So GRRM gives us several clues that Tyrion may not be a Targ.

• Has black and green eyes – a la warring factions of the DOTD (blacks and greens), and Shiera Seastar, a Targ bastard who also had mismatched eyes, one blue and one green

• Has a lock of pale blonde hair

• Used to dream he was a Targaryen prince

• Is fascinated with dragons

• Likes his bacon burnt black

• Tywin says “I cannot prove that you are not mine” and “You are no son of mine”

• Aerys was attracted to Joanna, per Barristan

• Chooses the name “Hugor Hill” as one of his Essossian nicknames

• Visits Jon and Jon’s new “brothers” at the Wall

• Speaks with Jon about dragons

• …“stood as tall as a king”

• Oberyn’s tale of Tyrion’s birth is very reminiscent of Visenya’s birth in TP&TQ and, in turn, Rhaego’s (both Targaryen births involving “monsters”)

• Etc., etc.

In any event, on one side of the debate (Targaryen), all of these “coincidences” are seen as potential clues of Tyrion’s Targ lineage, “ignoring” several clues that Tyrion might simply be the Lannister he portrays. On the other side of the debate (Lannister), all of these “clues” tend to be written off as a string of “annoying coincidences” assembled by people who favor Tyrion’s Lannister lineage.

In either case – objectively – it’s still an open debate because the text support for Tyrion’s alternate parentage is out there, and these “factoids” still either need to be paid off (Targaryen) or be proven as red herrings (Lannister). And whatever the outcome, it seems a sector of readers is going to be unhappy.

For my part, if Tyrion turns out to not be a head of the dragon, or to not have any Targ blood, those are both big missed opportunities in my view, and I will quite possibly be one of those unhappy readers. Sure, it might be a little bothersome to have not one but two secret Targs that were right in front of your face the whole time, but I’m also really not sure how GRRM plans to reconcile the mysteries of everything from Tyrion’s fascination with dragons to Aerys’ fascination with Joanna in the event Tyrion simply turns out to be a Lannister.

[Kennedy the Keen]

Also just to point out Tyrion is George's favorite character, and George is the man is charge, so why not have his favorite character be a Targ and ride a dragon. I know I would have Mance (my favorite character) riding a dragon, or being a long lost stark that becomes the King in the North and the new Last Hero defeating the Others.

With just these subtle clues George can actually make Tyrion a secret Targ if he wanted to. He has set it up enough that it wouldn't be completely impossible/implausible.

[Dagda]

Oye lord people, these discussions are supposed to be for enjoyment, not blood sport. In the end they mean nothing to the stories as they will be, so don't get so invested in them. I love a great theory, but never, ever will the book payoff disappoint because it goes against some preconceived notion.

Smile when reading!!!!

:)

[theREALjonsnow]

what? why do you feel as if people are coming at this with a " bloodsport " level of intensity? i just see people posting there proof and evidence...

don't get invested in being so correct about your own theories and be more open to people changing your mind!

imagine the smile you will have when in book 6 tyrion is riding a dragon with a special saddle he built himself wielding a valyrian axe, spreading carnage and mayhem on the hills of westeros burning the haters burnt black like his bacon! :drunk:

[Dagda]

I was just responding to Slayer "For my part, if Tyrion turns out to not be a head of the dragon, or to not have any Targ blood, those are both big missed opportunities in my view, and I will quite possibly be one of those unhappy readers."

I love the level of inventiveness on these boards, that rise to the level that I don't think George can possibly match in his books. The depth, the creativity. I'm not seeded in my correctness or stupidity, I just enjoy the flow. Folk need to be happy with the journey, even if not expecting the ending .... Dune taught me that! :p

[Slayer of Lies]

I was just responding to Slayer "For my part, if Tyrion turns out to not be a head of the dragon, or to not have any Targ blood, those are both big missed opportunities in my view, and I will quite possibly be one of those unhappy readers."

I love the level of inventiveness on these boards, that rise to the level that I don't think George can possibly match in his books. The depth, the creativity. I'm not seeded in my correctness or stupidity, I just enjoy the flow. Folk need to be happy with the journey, even if not expecting the ending .... Dune taught me that! :P

Perhaps “unhappy” is a strong word, or stance. I guess it depends on where you draw the line.

For example, if Tyrion suddenly invented the Lamborghini, or shared a graphic sex scene with a chicken, I suspect the vast majority of readers would be “unhappy” on some level.

So perhaps it’s a matter of qualifying my theoretical “unhappiness” with Tyrion's potential Lannister lineage relative to say, a death in the family, because – you’re right – they’re just books, and we’re just sharing our thoughts here. We might have different thoughts on the books, and we might analyze them differently, but we can always celebrate our shared love for the books themselves.

So maybe positioning myself as “a little disappointed” would have been a better choice of words on my part, because my hopes for Tyrion’s arc will not have been realized based on misreading what I perceived as a collection of clues and foreshadowing.

Or maybe “unhappy” and “disappointed” sound the same to you, because the point of your post was to tell me that I should be happy and enjoy the journey no matter how the books end?

This is hardly blood sport. It’s just a conversation. And it involves something you have thoughts and opinions about as well.

For example, you were suggesting that Tyrion is a Lannister on the merits of his name alone, or at least that his name is a “big wrench,” which I don’t necessarily buy, so I suggested a counter argument for you to consider.

However, instead of offering your thoughts on the matter, you chose to come back with a seemingly exasperated “oye lord people” that was apparently addressed only to me, and capped your post off with: “Smile when reading!!!!”

So let’s smile for a minute.

I think with many readers, it is usually mysteries like “who wrote the bastard letter,” “who are Jon Snow’s parents,” or “who are the three heads of the dragon” (and many, many more) that fire people up and drive them to discuss these books at length with other readers who are equally as passionate about the books as they are.

For me, as with many others I’ve interacted with, my primary enjoyment with these books – which is only possible because they are unfinished – comes from trying to figure out all various possible outcomes given the clues on the pages – something I can’t say I’d bother with if the books were already finished.

Furthermore, the first time I finished GOT the World Trade Center was still standing, so there are certain outcomes I’ve been invested in or anticipating for nearly fifteen years. And some of them I happen to prefer more than others.

In this particular case – based on my individual reader experience and interpretation of the text – I believe that Tyrion being a Targ tells a better story than Tyrion being a Lannister.

It would mean he’s not a kinslayer, it would mean he and Jaime killed each other’s fathers, and it might even mean that Tyrion is a bastard and Jon Snow is not – another slick reversal, for he tells Jon, “All dwarfs are bastards in their father’s eyes,” yet perhaps instead some bastards are fathered by Aerys Targaryen, and some bastards are actually the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Just as well, all of the advice that Tyrion gave Jon in book one would be advice intended for himself instead. For example, "Once you’ve accepted your flaws, no one can use them against you."

Additionally, perhaps Tyrion’s redemption arc could begin: maybe he’d try to stop using whores, maybe he’d try cut back on drinking, maybe he’d stop cutting people with his words, or maybe he'd "take some responsibility" in the fight against the Others… all because he perceives that he has a clean slate by way of no longer being Tywin’s son. And he'd still be half-Lannister to boot, by way of being Joanna's son, for those that "like him better" as a Lannister.

Meanwhile, if he’s Tywin's son… he’s “just” a Lannister. He’s of no relation to Jon or Dany, he’s committed regicide and patricide, he’s a member of the family that kicked off GOT as the “bad guys,” he ostensibly has no “proper” place as a head of the dragon alongside Jon and Dany, and he’s seemingly unlikely to ever change his sometimes sickening ways.

Addtionally, Tyrion not being a head of the dragon would mean that his mother’s death during his birth was purely coincidental, which would also insinuate that the deaths of Jon’s and Dany’s mothers during their births were also coincidental. Unless, of course, the mother of the third “non-Tyrion” head of the dragon also died birthing him or her (which, note, severely limits the number other “appealing” candidates). I mean, it'd be an odd red herring to throw into the books if someone like Bran turns out to be the third head, because, sure, his mother is kind of "dead," but she didn't died birthing him, which means Dany's and Jon's mothers' deaths was never even a clue.

In any event, why else would GRRM introduce Tyrion as a POV in book one? What makes him so important? Why not simply tell his story through other POVs? And how did he get to be one of GRRM's favorite characters if he's just a Lannister, and not a head of the dragon?

IMO, a character that doesn’t show significant personal growth over seven books is less interesting, and one of the ways for Tyrion to do just that involves a shock to his lineage, and possibly even to start "using his powers for good."

Within that frame, as a head of the dragon and a half-Targ, I feel Tyrion has much more upside and potential for serving the overarching story than he does if neither of those things is true. And to be a head of the dragon and a full-blooded Lannister just doesn’t make very much sense to me at all…

But I could be wrong, and maybe I’ll be a little bit bummed out if that happens, but that’s a perfectly normal feeling for a reader to have, particularly when they’ve been invested in an idea for so long.

Meanwhile, you seem to have the good fortune of being someone who will be pleased no matter what GRRM writes, and for that, I'm jealous! GRRM kind of broke me a few years back, and I've been trying to unravel his mysteries ever since. :drunk:

[theREALjonsnow]

:agree: awesome post.

[Dagda]

Perhaps “unhappy” is a strong word, or stance. I guess it depends on where you draw the line.

For example, if Tyrion suddenly invented the Lamborghini, or shared a graphic sex scene with a chicken, I suspect the vast majority of readers would be “unhappy” on some level.

So perhaps it’s a matter of qualifying my theoretical “unhappiness” with Tyrion's potential Lannister lineage relative to say, a death in the family, because – you’re right – they’re just books, and we’re just sharing our thoughts here. We might have different thoughts on the books, and we might analyze them differently, but we can always celebrate our shared love for the books themselves.

So maybe positioning myself as “a little disappointed” would have been a better choice of words on my part, because my hopes for Tyrion’s arc will not have been realized based on misreading what I perceived as a collection of clues and foreshadowing.

Or maybe “unhappy” and “disappointed” sound the same to you, because the point of your post was to tell me that I should be happy and enjoy the journey no matter how the books end?

This is hardly blood sport. It’s just a conversation. And it involves something you have thoughts and opinions about as well.

For example, you were suggesting that Tyrion is a Lannister on the merits of his name alone, or at least that his name is a “big wrench,” which I don’t necessarily buy, so I suggested a counter argument for you to consider.

However, instead of offering your thoughts on the matter, you chose to come back with a seemingly exasperated “oye lord people” that was apparently addressed only to me, and capped your post off with: “Smile when reading!!!!”

So let’s smile for a minute.

I think with many readers, it is usually mysteries like “who wrote the bastard letter,” “who are Jon Snow’s parents,” or “who are the three heads of the dragon” (and many, many more) that fire people up and drive them to discuss these books at length with other readers who are equally as passionate about the books as they are.

Meanwhile, you seem to have the good fortune of being someone who will be pleased no matter what GRRM writes, and for that, I'm jealous! GRRM kind of broke me a few years back, and I've been trying to unravel his mysteries ever since. :drunk:

It really wasn't a shot at you, I just get to the point where when reading theories I like, I get stuck on points of logic that stop my agreement in it's tracks. The name game is one for me .... And I know how little a point it is based on the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, but these things still grab me like a thorn. I even have problems with my own theories! ;) One thing I have learned is I have to listen to others evaluations, because, in the long run, it's still conjecture and may point in another direction. Take a look in Heresy 97 and you can see how I fall off even my original beliefs. If you do, spoiler alert, I'm still questioning why Aemon would leave the Wall in my mini Targ Northern Conspiracy Theory ... I know nothing. :)

As for George, I like his work, but am more invested in the Prince of Nothing series .... and even there I'm along for the ride.

[Dagda]

:agree: awesome post.

History .... :commie:

[Slayer of Lies]

For any Tyrion fans (or foes) I kicked off a "why does his lineage matter" thread in the general forum today:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/105464-so-tyrion-is-a-lannister-but-why/

I personally think he has more "endgame potential" as a Targ, but I hardly expect everyone to agree with me, and I'm curious to learn what readers on both sides of the fence think about his "upside" as either a Targ or a Lannister, and/or which lineage people think will tell a better story in the end.

[horizon]

Tyrion being a Targ would feel wrong in the scope of the whole story. It would be overkill in terms of hidden/unknown identities.

[The Lord of Corpses]

" You and Lady Sansa owe me a better present, Uncle Imp. This one is all chopped to pieces."

Tyrion was staring at his nephew with his mismatched eyes. " Perhaps a knife, sire. To match your sword. A dagger of the same fine Valyrian steel... with a dragonbone hilt, say?"

Joff gave him a sharp look. " You... yes, a dagger to match my sword, good." He nodded. " A ... gold hilt with rubies in it. Dragonbone is too plain." As you wish, Your Grace. Tyrion drank another cup of wine. He might have been all alone in his solar for all the attention he paid Sansa. But when the time came to leave for the wedding, he took her by the hand.

Undeniable proof that Tyrion is a Targaryen, from SOS's " Purple Wedding". This scene will show up in HBO's the Lion and the Rose tomorrow IM humblest of O's.

mismatched eyes... biggest hint at A+J=T and when it shows up in this quote we know it is important. King Joff wants Tyrion to remove the " dragonbone " hilt and put on a " gold with rubies " hilt. So a Valyrian blade " dagger " kinda short like the Imp huh, will be transformed to Lion but still remain a hidden Dragon underneath. Also your Acoholic Dragon Dreamers Anonymous quote wouldn't be complete without a sip of dornish red!

Calling this theory the A.D.D.A for my fellow posters that " know nothing."

[Mithras]

Undeniable proof that Tyrion is a Targaryen, from SOS's " Purple Wedding" this scene will show up in HBO's the Lion and the Rose tomorrow IMO.

mismatched eyes... biggest hint at A+J=T and when it shows up in this quote we know it is important.

King Joff wants Tyrion to remove the " dragonbone " hilt and put on a " gold with rubies " hilt. So a Valyrian blade " dagger " kinda short like the Imp huh, will be transformed to Lion but still remain a hidden Dragon underneath.

Also your Acoholic Dragon Dreamers Anonymous quote wouldn't be complete without a sip of dornish red!

Calling this theory the A.D.D.A for my fellow posters that " know nothing."

All of these and most of the evidences in this theory also make sense if the Lannisters have a recent, legitimate Targaryen ancestor like Eleana Targaryen. This is highly probable especially after Ran confirmed a Surprising Lannister Ancestor to be revealed in TWOIAF which removes the necessity of an Aerys rape assumption.

ETA:

Her grandfather had died when she was only a year old, but she knew the story. Lord Tytos had grown very fat, and his heart burst one day when he was climbing the steps to his mistress. Her father was off in King’s Landing when it happened, serving as the Mad King’s Hand. Lord Tywin was often away in King’s Landing when she and Jaime were young.

This passage clearly shows that Joanna and her twins were in Casterly Rock while Tywin was serving as the Hand in King’s Landing. He returned to Casterly Rock regularly to do his husbandly duties. How can Aerys go to Casterly Rock without Tywin and rape his wife?

[The Lord of Corpses]

All of these and most of the evidences in this theory also make sense if the Lannisters have a recent, legitimate Targaryen ancestor like Eleana Targaryen. This is highly probable especially after Ran confirmed a Surprising Lannister Ancestor to be revealed in TWOIAF which removes the necessity of an Aerys rape assumption.

It " removes the nesccessity of an Aerys rape assumption " for you and fellow posters who do not believe A+J=T. ( I still go with the 50+ A.D.D.A quotes that suggest otherwise.)

I don't think a " rape " was involved in the first place. Yet I still believe he is the " second son " of the Mad King. go figure!

[The Lord of Corpses]

All of these and most of the evidences in this theory also make sense if the Lannisters have a recent, legitimate Targaryen ancestor like Eleana Targaryen. This is highly probable especially after Ran confirmed a Surprising Lannister Ancestor to be revealed in TWOIAF which removes the necessity of an Aerys rape assumption.

ETA:

Her grandfather had died when she was only a year old, but she knew the story. Lord Tytos had grown very fat, and his heart burst one day when he was climbing the steps to his mistress. Her father was off in King’s Landing when it happened, serving as the Mad King’s Hand. Lord Tywin was often away in King’s Landing when she and Jaime were young.

This passage clearly shows that Joanna and her twins were in Casterly Rock while Tywin was serving as the Hand in King’s Landing. He returned to Casterly Rock regularly to do his husbandly duties. How can Aerys go to Casterly Rock without Tywin and rape his wife?

Dude it's in the past. We can't be sure sometimes how current events have played out from chapter to chapter, so you assuming to know everything that took place between Aerys/Joanna seems silly.

If you wan't to start getting into a what the text suggests that is fine but I posted something from Storm of Swords Purple Wedding that will take place this weekend.

Where did you pull your quote that you believe ( I see nothing that mentions Joanna or Aerys relationship in that quote, only your conjecture about what the interpretation should be.) proves A+J =/= T? And how can you make the statement " clearly shows " if there is not a single mention of Aerys or Joanna in the sentence. You are reaching my friend!

[Frey family reunion]

All of these and most of the evidences in this theory also make sense if the Lannisters have a recent, legitimate Targaryen ancestor like Eleana Targaryen. This is highly probable especially after Ran confirmed a Surprising Lannister Ancestor to be revealed in TWOIAF which removes the necessity of an Aerys rape assumption.

ETA:

Her grandfather had died when she was only a year old, but she knew the story. Lord Tytos had grown very fat, and his heart burst one day when he was climbing the steps to his mistress. Her father was off in King’s Landing when it happened, serving as the Mad King’s Hand. Lord Tywin was often away in King’s Landing when she and Jaime were young.

This passage clearly shows that Joanna and her twins were in Casterly Rock while Tywin was serving as the Hand in King’s Landing. He returned to Casterly Rock regularly to do his husbandly duties. How can Aerys go to Casterly Rock without Tywin and rape his wife?

But we are also told that Joanna and Princess Martell were good friends and ladies in waiting for Queen Rhaella, so surely they spent time together at King's Landing.

ETA: or Dragonstone

[Mithras]

But we are also told that Joanna and Princess Martell were good friends and ladies in waiting for Queen Rhaella, so surely they spent time together at King's Landing.

ETA: or Dragonstone

I think that was before she married Tywin and perhaps one of Tywin's reasons to marry her was her friendship with the future queen. Jon Arryn took Lysa to the court but he was an old man who needed to produce an heir as quickly as possible. I don't think Tywin brought Joanna to the court instead of having her raising the twins at Casterly Rock.