A + J = T

[Men in their cups say...]

I posted something mean about you. Then I deleted it because I'm better than that. Apparently I still have to post something though...

[Newstar]

The strongest bit of evidence against Tyrion being a Targaryen bastard is Moqorro's vision. Moqorro tells Tyrion that he sees dragons AND Tyrion. This suggests that suggests that Tyrion is a non-Targ amongst Targs.

I'd thought so, too, but the quote is actually not that clearcut:

"Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all."

The punctuation is ambiguous; if it had been "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark, and you," that would have been a dead A + J = T (if that's what we're calling it now) giveaway. However, I think there's a hint there, although GRRM is playing punctuation tricks so as to make it less obvious.

Also, "snarling in the midst of it all" doesn't rule out Tyrion being one of the dragons. If the quote had been "snarling in the midst of them all" ("them" being the dragons), that also would have clearly distinguished between Tyrion and the dragons. The phrasing doesn't do that, though.

The "snarling" bit is a little strange. Tyrion does "snarl" a fair bit in the books. Direwolves and dogs "snarl" frequently. (OMG, Tyrion's a secret Stark!)

As for Quaithe's warning about a lion clearly referencing Tyrion, I think it was to ensure that the reader had Tyrion in mind. If she had just referenced another dragon, it wouldn't have been a tipoff to the reader that the warning included Tyrion (unless it had been phrased differently, I guess).

There's no way Tywin Lannister would knowingly allow such a child to survive especially if that child is Tyrion.

Maybe, but no matter what, Tyrion is Joanna's child, and Tywin presumably adored Joanna. He might treat Tyrion with utter contempt and subject him to horrible abuse, but I don't believe that he could bring himself to kill Tyrion knowing that he was Joanna's child. Tywin Lannister was one ruthless SOB when it came to everyone else, but not when it came to anything to do with Joanna, I think.

[Daemrion]

Joanna was once a lady-in-waiting to Rhaella, so it could have happened then. Also, I imagine that Joanna would want to visit Tywin in KL from time to time. To paraphrase GRRM, I don't think Joanna was nailed to the floor of Casterly Rock the whole time.

...

Very true. No need for Aeyrs to 'teleport' in; a simple horse would be enough to get him there.

Yes, Joanna was lady in waiting to Rhaella, but I always read that as being lady in waiting before she got married. Certainly, we know that she was at Casterly Rock raising Jaime and Cersei before Tyrion was being born when she caught them together as kids. I also doubt that Aerys would be making solo trips to Casterly Rock without Tywin knowing about it. And it seems unlikely that Aerys would sleep with Joanna in CR and no one bat an eyelid about it. Aerys had much more opportunity to impregnate Joanna (if he did at all) whilst she was in Kings Landing rather than when she was at Casterly Rock.

It is far more likely that Aerys and Joanna didn't have a chance to sleep together clandestinely without anyone else's knowledge prior to Tyrion's birth. Whilst it is not impossible for Aerys and Joanna to have carried on an affair or have intercourse, it is still right now, less likely than not given what we currently know.

Although I agree that Genna's comments are more towards character of Tywin/Tyrion/Jaime rather than biology.

I am inclined to believe that Tywin did not know that Tyrion was not his from the beginning. I think when Aerys brought Jaime into the Kingsguard, he crowed to Tywin about how he stole his son and left Tywin with his ... for an heir. Tywin would not only see this as a total loss to Aerys, he would be humiliated if any of this got out. This is why I think he resigned as hand as soon as he could. I also think this is why he was so ruthless when it came to killing Aerys' heirs. I think he wanted to hurt Aerys in the same way Aerys hurt him. (Yes, I know Aerys was already dead, but revenge is seldom rational.)

Leaving him with a dwarf for an heir would have opened Tywin up to people laughing at him, and as has been pointed out many times, Tywin hated people who laughed at him and his family because of what happened with his father. I don't think A+J=T would be here or there in Tywin's decision to leave Kings Landing and resign as Hand. He would have resigned whether or not Tyrion was Aerys' secret son.

Further, I'm pretty sure that Tywin states in the book that he presented the dead bodies of Aerys's heirs to Robert to make a public gesture of loyalty to Robert since he basically came at the last minute to the Rebellion.

And as pointed out, an 'accident' could always be arranged at any time, if he knew that Tyrion wasn't his. Tyrion would have still been a kid when Jaime was named to the KG.

[Brindled]

could this be why tyrion didnt get greyscale but connington did? didnt viserys tell dany that targs didnt generally get sick with common diseases or something along those lines?

just a side note, but it is more evidence that tyrion may have stronger targ blood than we might have been led to believe.

[corbon]

could this be why tyrion didnt get greyscale but connington did? didnt viserys tell dany that targs didnt generally get sick with common diseases or something along those lines?

just a side note, but it is more evidence that tyrion may have stronger targ blood than we might have been led to believe.

No, its a load of rubbish that is demonstrably false coming out of the deluded Viserys' mouth, only Dany is too young and inexperienced to tell that Viserys is an idiot. Targs can and do get sick, and even full-blooded Targaryen kings have died of sickness.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

I know that targs died during the great spring sickness (or whatever it was called) but do we have any reported cases of Targ greyscale from the text?

Edit: besides princess shireen, i don't really see the Baratheons as having enough Targ blood based on Maester Aemon's comments about the 3 heads of the dragon.

[corbon]

I know that targs died during the great spring sickness (or whatever it was called) but do we have any reported cases of Targ greyscale from the text?

Edit: besides princess shireen, i don't really see the Baratheons as having enough Targ blood based on Maester Aemon's comments about the 3 heads of the dragon.

What relevance is it, really?

You have a demonstrably false comment by an arrogant moron known to be seriously divorced from reality, that plays precisely to his arrogance.

Dany believes it because he is her big brother and she doesn't know any better, but she's clearly been sick herself, thus proving him wrong again.

So all you have left is a main character who was one of the fortunate ones who didn;t get sick. Along with quite a few other people.

Targ blood is irrelevant here.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

What relevance is it, really?

You have a demonstrably false comment by an arrogant moron known to be seriously divorced from reality, that plays precisely to his arrogance.

Dany believes it because he is her big brother and she doesn't know any better, but she's clearly been sick herself, thus proving him wrong again.

So all you have left is a main character who was one of the fortunate ones who didn;t get sick. Along with quite a few other people.

Targ blood is irrelevant here.

IDK there may be more to it than that... We really can't say what the hell is going on with Dany at this point as evidenced by threads like "Is Dany riding the pale mare". I understand your point that Viserys is an unreliable source of info, but what if Targs were immune to greyscale and thats how the rumor of "Targ super immunity" got started, during a particular outbreak in westeros...

[Knight of the Teabags]

but what if Targs were immune to greyscale and thats how the rumor of "Targ super immunity" got started, during a particular outbreak in westeros...

However there is no evidence for this either way, so your arguement is basically Occrams' Razor. In fact the only source currently in the books for Targ immunity either to all disease or specifically grayscale is Viserys whose judgement based on what we know of him we must seriously question. The other thing is the reactions of both Barristan and Jon Connington (both who spent more than a little time around the Targaryen family) when their respective charges (who they both believe to be Targaryens) are faced with infectious diseases suggests if there is a rumour of Targ super immunity it is not commonly known.

Tyrion's survival from grayscale (which lets be honest isn't assured yet - after all the symptoms may yet emerge) is much easier explained by saying he just happened to be one of the random minority of humanity against any disease that has the right stuff in his immune system to survive it. There is no such thing in human history as a 100% fatal disease even in cases like the native americans against old world disease like smallpox, some people always somehow survive - and these people are about as likely to be special in any other way as any other member of the human race.

[Jem]

IDK there may be more to it than that... We really can't say what the hell is going on with Dany at this point as evidenced by threads like "Is Dany riding the pale mare". I understand your point that Viserys is an unreliable source of info, but what if Targs were immune to greyscale and thats how the rumor of "Targ super immunity" got started, during a particular outbreak in westeros...

The only thing that the "Is Dany riding the pale mare" threads are evidence of is that some people have problems with comprehension.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

However there is no evidence for this either way, so your arguement is basically Occrams' Razor. In fact the only source currently in the books for Targ immunity either to all disease or specifically grayscale is Viserys whose judgement based on what we know of him we must seriously question. The other thing is the reactions of both Barristan and Jon Connington (both who spent more than a little time around the Targaryen family) when their respective charges (who they both believe to be Targaryens) are faced with infectious diseases suggests if there is a rumour of Targ super immunity it is not commonly known.

Tyrion's survival from grayscale (which lets be honest isn't assured yet - after all the symptoms may yet emerge) is much easier explained by saying he just happened to be one of the random minority of humanity against any disease that has the right stuff in his immune system to survive it. There is no such thing in human history as a 100% fatal disease even in cases like the native americans against old world disease like smallpox, some people always somehow survive - and these people are about as likely to be special in any other way as any other member of the human race.

But we're not talking about human history, we're talking about Westerosi history and GRRM has stated that "real world" genetics and the like don't apply. I'm really just playing devil's advocate, but my assertion is just as valid as yours (ie noone referencing immunities) as Dany says in her POV she cannot remember ever being touched by sickness, and the fact that we've never seen a Targ get sick in these stories (only in the history which could be unreliable),

The only thing that the "Is Dany riding the pale mare" threads are evidence of is that some people have problems with comprehension.

IDK pretty strong case for berries giving her the runs and not the pale mare, we won't know definitively till TWoW.

[Men in their cups say...]

I think that even though Viserys was somewhat deranged and arrogant, he probably didn't just make up the thing about Targ super immunity. It is far more likely that he heard it from someone. I wouldn't be surprised if this was something commonly said about Targs in Westeros, so my opinion is that there is some truth to this statement.

Apparently there are some exceptions to this although a more specific reference would be nice.

Some Targs may have died during the spring sickness isn't a very good counter-argument given what we know about the annals of history in Westeros.

I think its very likely that Targaryen dna includes some sort of hyper-immune system that protects Dany from the Pale Mare (its the berries) and Tyrion from Greyscale. Especially since we saw him swallow half the Rhoyne and JonCon only dip his hand in and yet still contract it. The fun part about this is that disease is so random by nature that nothing can be proved definitively by this one little piece of evidence.

But given that magic and GRRM are in play, and since I'm already leaning towards the AJT outcome, Yes, Targaryen Super Immunity (TSI for all you noobz) is REAL! and is evidence that Tyrion sprung from Aerys' twisted loins.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

TSI! :bowdown: epic LOL.

Yes could be just as likely the Targs were assasinated (due to succession to the throne issues) and the deaths were blamed on spring sickness...

[DaveRoid]

Danny was brazen with the the diseased Astapori's and went and touched one old man IIRC because she didn't believe she could get the disease... what she believes is irrelevant but she DID NOT get the disease even when she was acting extremely carelessly. Tyrion in a similar but far worse fashion basically drinks his weight in disease infested waters and seems just fine so far..... do we have anything on Jon with similar circumstances?

There is something here which might relate to targaryan blood or the heads of the dragon having inhuman qualities.

[corbon]

I think that even though Viserys was somewhat deranged and arrogant, he probably didn't just make up the thing about Targ super immunity. It is far more likely that he heard it from someone. I wouldn't be surprised if this was something commonly said about Targs in Westeros, so my opinion is that there is some truth to this statement.

Apparently there are some exceptions to this although a more specific reference would be nice.

Some Targs may have died during the spring sickness isn't a very good counter-argument given what we know about the annals of history in Westeros.

I think its very likely that Targaryen dna includes some sort of hyper-immune system that protects Dany from the Pale Mare (its the berries) and Tyrion from Greyscale. Especially since we saw him swallow half the Rhoyne and JonCon only dip his hand in and yet still contract it. The fun part about this is that disease is so random by nature that nothing can be proved definitively by this one little piece of evidence.

But given that magic and GRRM are in play, and since I'm already leaning towards the AJT outcome, Yes, Targaryen Super Immunity (TSI for all you noobz) is REAL! and is evidence that Tyrion sprung from Aerys' twisted loins.

The plague killed tens of thousands in the Seven Kingdoms^[1] with the major cities affected the most; it was bad in Lannisport, worse in Oldtown, but worst of all in King's Landing, where four in ten succumbed to it.^[2] A strong man could wake up healthy in the morning and die by the evening, so swiftly did the plague strike.^[3] Dorne and the Vale of Arryn did not suffer from the Great Spring Sickness, as they closed off their access roads and their ports to all travelers.^[4][2]

The plague did not care for status and killed people high-born or low, including King Daeron the Good,^[5][1][2][6] his last Hand of the King^[2] and his two most immediate heirs, Princes Valarr^[7][2] and Matarys,^[1][2][6] as well as ...

There is zero evidence for TSI and active counter-evidence.

Yes, someone possibly told Viserys that. Just like he was told that all the peasants in westeros are secretly sewing dragon banners and praying for his return. Viserys was a moron and anything coming out of his mouth has a higher chance of being wrong than right. There are no secret banner sewing session, no popular support, no usurpers knives, no 'sale' of Dany to the Dothraki, no immunity from bad things due to being 'the dragon', and no immunity to sickness (or heat).

Danny was brazen with the the diseased Astapori's and went and touched one old man IIRC because she didn't believe she could get the disease... what she believes is irrelevant but she DID NOT get the disease even when she was acting extremely carelessly. Tyrion in a similar but far worse fashion basically drinks his weight in disease infested waters and seems just fine so far..... do we have anything on Jon with similar circumstances?

There is something here which might relate to targaryan blood or the heads of the dragon having inhuman qualities.

No there isn't. Because we know Targaryen blood does not give immunity to stuff. Targaryens die the same as anyone else, be it by disease, fire, old age, a sword in the back or anything else.

Even the most highy infectious diseases do not have 100% infection rates. Some people just don't catch it, not because they are immune, but because they are just lucky. Someone has to be.

Dany and Tyrion have plot armour, not to mention that either of them may have the respective diseases yet anyway.

[Men in their cups say...]

Thanks for the quote corbon.

I'm still not convinced though. Remember that everyone except a few in the know still think Jon Arryn died of a tummy ache and Robert was simply bested by a boar. The King, his Hand, and both of his immediate heirs dying sounds way more like a well executed regime change to me....

And even if a few Targs did really die of super flu, there's bound to be some exceptions when Super Immunity meets Super Spring Sickness.

[Men in their cups say...]

Haha Jon survived being in the same room as Shireen......

Val knows whats up.

[corbon]

Thanks for the quote corbon.

I'm still not convinced though. Remember that everyone except a few in the know still think Jon Arryn died of a tummy ache and Robert was simply bested by a boar. The King, his Hand, and both of his immediate heirs dying sounds way more like a well executed regime change to me....

And even if a few Targs did really die of super flu, there's bound to be some exceptions when Super Immunity meets Super Spring Sickness.

Problem is there is no credible evidence for TSI. None.

Ignoring actual credible evidence because it doesn't fit the theory is the other hallmark of really bad theories.

[alienarea]

Jon survived being stabbed four times

:leaving:

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Debating TSI is both educational, and entertaining. :cool4:

It seems like Dany and Viserys, living in the streets (at times), would def have gotten sick at some point if there wasn't some form of TSI in play huh? :ack: