corbon Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Debating TSI is both educational, and entertaining. :cool4:It seems like Dany and Viserys, living in the streets (at times), would def have gotten sick at some point if there wasn't some form of TSI in play huh? :ack:1. I very much doubt they actually lived in the streets, ever. In fact, I'm not sure where you got this idea.2. Who says they didn't? Dany certainly recognises what it feels like to have certain symptoms of illness. Viserys is entirely capable of ignoring inconvenient things like having actually been sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Endrew Tarth Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 1. I very much doubt they actually lived in the streets, ever. In fact, I'm not sure where you got this idea.2. Who says they didn't? Dany certainly recognises what it feels like to have certain symptoms of illness. Viserys is entirely capable of ignoring inconvenient things like having actually been sick.AGoT wiki:Ser Willem's servants later evicted the last Targaryens, forcing them to wander the Free Cities as guests of powerful citizens. Their welcome eventually faded, and they were forced to sell off their possessions to survive, even Rhaella's crown. When Viserys sold his mother's crown the last joy had gone from him, leaving only rage, men started calling him The Beggar King.He sold the crown, the last of their precious possesions, then earned the name the beggar king. Sounds like hard times to me...2. seems like Dany would logically think in her POV "Viserys says we were immune to common sickness... but there was that one time when he and i got really sick." She doesn't, in fact she explicitely states she can't remember ever feeling sick IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Men in their cups say... Posted October 19, 2012 Author Share Posted October 19, 2012 To say there is Absolutely Zero Evidence of TSI just proves how closed-minded you are on this. I refuse to debate a stone man. Yeah, you got Greyscale, no TSI for you.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbon Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 AGoT wiki:Ser Willem's servants later evicted the last Targaryens, forcing them to wander the Free Cities as guests of powerful citizens. Their welcome eventually faded, and they were forced to sell off their possessions to survive, even Rhaella's crown. When Viserys sold his mother's crown the last joy had gone from him, leaving only rage, men started calling him The Beggar King.He sold the crown, the last of their precious possesions, then earned the name the beggar king. Sounds like hard times to me...Sure, hard times for rich people. But it never says they lived on the streets.They lived first as guests of rich people, moving around so as not to overstay their welcome.Then the welcomes dried up and they had to sell of possessions in order to buy that welcome. thats when he is the Beggar King, begging people to take them in, not begging on the streets.Illyrio and Varys have had them in their plan all along, they have been at the very least under surveillance, no doubt many of their benefactors were arranged by Illyrio.Probably the selling of possessions was 'forced' in order to make them more dependent and therefore more pliable.Remember, they are the controlled, visible face of the Targs in exile, while Illyrio and Varys plot for (f)Aegon in secret.At the end, we see them living wealithily(while penniless) in llyrio's place. Exactly as he needs them to be to set up the Dothraki thing and give them an army to invade, which (f)Aegon will be able to save Westeros from.There is no actual suggestion they lived on the streets or felt true hardship and I can't imagine Illyrio and Varys letting them do so, taking real risks in uncontrolled situations.2. seems like Dany would logically think in her POV "Viserys says we were immune to common sickness... but there was that one time when he and i got really sick." She doesn't, in fact she explicitely states she can't remember ever feeling sick IIRC.Dany has become literally an unreliable narrator. She thinks the drogon-in-the-pit scene was just like the funeral pyre scene, confirming her immunity to fire, yet she comes away with burns and blisters and was never actually caught by the dragon fire anyway. She thinks she can never remember being sick yet she recognises what it feels like to be sick. She's fairly close to the edge at this point, clearly caught up in the fantasy of her situation and lost to reality in several aspects. Many question whether the Targeryan 'madness' side of the coin is starting to show itself, not the 'greatness' side... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbon Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 To say there is Absolutely Zero Evidence of TSI just proves how closed-minded you are on this. I refuse to debate a stone man. Yeah, you got Greyscale, no TSI for you....Provide some?Not getting sick (yet) is not evidence of TSI, its just evidence of not getting sick yet. Not everybody does, these things don't have 100% infection rates. And Greyscale explicitly can lie dormant for years.And Viserys' statement is not evidence since he's outright wrong, proven by King Daeron and his sons. And lives in a fantasy world inside his own head to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveRoid Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Provide some?Not getting sick (yet) is not evidence of TSI, its just evidence of not getting sick yet. Not everybody does, these things don't have 100% infection rates. And Greyscale explicitly can lie dormant for years.And Viserys' statement is not evidence since he's outright wrong, proven by King Daeron and his sons. And lives in a fantasy world inside his own head to boot.Yeb folks, all the evidence that the heads of the dragon never got sick means nothing!TDS. Tygarian derangement syndrome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliche Guevara Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Yeb folks, all the evidence that the heads of the dragon never got sick means nothing!TDS. Tygarian derangement syndrome.TSI now stands for Targaryen Spelling Inadequacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Men in their cups say... Posted October 20, 2012 Author Share Posted October 20, 2012 Corbon I'm not sure how you think that cities work, but typically, outside of the houses, there are these things called streets that take people from one house (lets say maybe one they've recently been put out of) to other houses (let's say a certain manse in Pentos). Dany was unable to fly until most of the way through the book A Dance With Dragons, its a pretty good read, I highly recommend it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Men in their cups say... Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 But if anyone bothers to read my original post on TSI, you'll notice the part where I say that because of the random nature of disease we can't prove or disprove anything definitively. The evidence has all been discussed, I personally choose to believe in TSI, get over it.Let's get back on topic. Which dragon do you guys think Tyrion will end up riding? I'm thinkin' Rhaegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTR-90 Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 NO NO NO. Tyrion can't just can't be a targ. That would totally ruin the whole thing for me!!!!tantrum off.If Tyrion was Aerys's son, Twin would have had him killed, some disease, accident....When did Aerys sleep with Joanna, he can't just make regular visits to CS without that being noticed, and Twin is crazy enough to kill Aerys if he thought Aerys was banging Joanna(he was supposedly really in live with J).Also some here mentioned how Twyn would not kill Tyrion even if he was a bastard because it would be kin slaying. Well to that I say, we are TALKING ABOUT TWYN FREAKING LANNISTER! This guy destroyed two entire families killed Rhaeghars children and is one of the most evilest (and coolest) characters in the book, I don't think he gave much of a damn about religion or gods, if Tyrion was a bastard, Twyn would have got rid of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Endrew Tarth Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 @Corbon, we can agree to disagree. As you said it doesn't explicitely state they lived on the streets, it doesn't say they didn't either... I find it hard to believe they were that down and out AFTER wearing out their welcome and didn't spend some time literally begging, staying at crap inns, and yes at least a few times living on the street. All we know for a fact, as you said, is where they were when the story began, but we don't have enough info to say they were well taken care of or "watched over" by llyrio or Varys...same w/ TSI... You're basically throwing around your opinion in your posts and pretending it has weight but you should be using textual evidence. Both of our arguments are moot unless we were speaking w/ GRRM right now, who could put it to rest, so technically we're both wrong LOL. :cheers:TSI now stands for Targaryen Spelling InadequacyLMAO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Men in their cups say... Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 For everyone, in the 'Tywin woulda killed his dwarfass' camp, the quote farther up this thread really clears that question up for me. "I cannot prove that you are not mine"And also, Tywin didn't kill Tyrion and the story may still go the AJT route, so when you say 'tywin woulda killed him' yur just wrong. Thats not what happened. Tyrion is clearly alive. Its fine to use future hypotheticals when trying to predict which way the story will go but introducing a hypothetical scenario that clearly just FLAT OUT DID NOT HAPPEN IN THE BOOKS is of no use to anyone... hate it all you want you but try to keep your posts grounded in the text.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Endrew Tarth Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 yes there is a lot of idle speculation here. I am really surpised at how vehemently some have reacted against this theory. In that respect I should apologize to Corbon or anyone else who thinks I was being snarky/prickly. I really just like to play devil's advocate and make the conversation interesting... Which it has been! I'm glad you started this conversation again Cups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dornishman's Wife Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 And also, Tywin didn't kill Tyrion and the story may still go the AJT route, so when you say 'tywin woulda killed him' yur just wrong. Thats not what happened. Tyrion is clearly alive. Its fine to use future hypotheticals when trying to predict which way the story will go but introducing a hypothetical scenario that clearly just FLAT OUT DID NOT HAPPEN IN THE BOOKS is of no use to anyone... hate it all you want you but try to keep your posts grounded in the text....That is the most hilarious bit of "reasoning" I've seen in a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Men in their cups say... Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 Haha I know its silly when an argument turns into an existential crisis isnt it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Endrew Tarth Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 That is the most hilarious bit of "reasoning" I've seen in a long time.That is kind of funny, but I just had a thought. Everyone wants to jump in and say "NO WAY TYWIN WOULD LET HIM LIVE! He's too ruthless, doesn't care about the gods yada yada. If he's so freakin ruthless, and would arrange an indirect murder if he wasn't his son, don't you think he would do the same just having a dwarf whoremonger for a son?i mean seriously, what's stopping him from ridding himself of the joke that is his twisted dwarf son. Tyrion is the only reason men have to laugh at Tywin now which he explicitely states he loathes. There must be a reason Tywin doesn't outright try to kill him, son or no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 The strongest bit of evidence against Tyrion being a Targaryen bastard is Moqorro's vision. Moqorro tells Tyrion that he sees dragons AND Tyrion. This suggests that suggests that Tyrion is a non-Targ amongst Targs.Even if Aerys is Tyrions father, he is not a Targaryen. He'd be a bastard and his last name would be Hill. Blackfyres were legitimized Targaryen bastards and any of their legitimate kids have the blackfyre name. Tyrion isn't one of those either.So you can't really claim that Tyrion is a 'dragon' whether the father is Aerys or not.P.S Lions can Snarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of the Teabags Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 i mean seriously, what's stopping him from ridding himself of the joke that is his twisted dwarf son. Tyrion is the only reason men have to laugh at Tywin now which he explicitely states he loathes. There must be a reason Tywin doesn't outright try to kill him, son or no.Because Tyrion actually being TYWIN's son makes all the difference, because if Tywin largely believes Tyrion is his son Tyrion's behaviour is his responsibility.Tywin may loathe Tyrion's whore-mongering, but if he believes himself to be Tyrion's father his duty is to make Tyrion behave more responsibly and reflect more respectively on House Lannister. Which is exactly what we see Tywin doing towards Tyrion throughout the books trying to make him act like a good Lannister - stopping the Tysha marriage and stopping Tyrion from getting into further situations where he picks fights with Cersai over whores for instance. Finally on this note there is a possibility that though Tywin found it very hard to find much he actually liked about Tyrion, he may well have held (like many parents who find their children lacking) a glimmer of hope in his heart he might actually manage to change Tyrion into someone a little more respectful who Tywin could take a degree of pride in. Tywin could never stop Tyrion being a dwarf, but he could make him abstain from whoring, hold a number of positions on the small council and then marry say Sansa Stark getting Tywin a grandson who would have a claim to Winterfell.But if Tywin has a serious concern that Tyrion is not his all these great hopes and expectations he has on Tyrion are for nothing, why even bother? Just quietly make him disappear, Tywin could even let him run off with that crofter girl, especially if he thinks Tyrion's Aerys' bastard he'd probably think was hilarious...You see IMHO a lot of the worst confrontations Tywin has with Tyrion ultimately boil down what how Tywin wants his son's behaviour to reflect on himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbon Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 You see IMHO a lot of the worst confrontations Tywin has with Tyrion ultimately boil down what how Tywin wants his son's behaviour to reflect on himself.And if Tywin suspects Tyrion is a bastard, how does that change the reflection on himself? After all, the reflection is not about what he thinks, its about how the rest of the world sees things, which is Tyrion as his son regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Men in their cups say... Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 The problem with saying 'Tywin still has hope for Tyrion' is that Tywin says 'You will never inherit Casterly Rock' Why bother to keep Tyrion around if he isn't even good for the one thing you really need, an heir?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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