More Small Questions, Really?

[Foxhound]

We don't know. All we know is the Dornish got a head that is claimed to be Gregor's. We don't know if it's real, and if it is, what Robert Strong has under his helmet.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

Question about bastards:

I thought I read somewhere that (legitimate?) Targ bastards got the name Blackfyre, but later I found out that Brynden Rivers, and Shierra Seasar were legitimised as well, but Stannis offers Jon the Stark last name, and Ramsay now calls himself Bolton, because he's been legitimised. We know Robert has acknowledged Edric Storm as his bastard, but hasn't legitimised him (I think), but Aegon the Unworthy's bastards were all truly legitimised, so why aren't they Targaryens? How does this work? Sorry if this already has been asked, there was some stuff about bastards on the first few pages, but this wasn't mentioned, and I didn't want to read through the entire thread.

[Dr. Pepper]

Question about bastards:

I thought I read somewhere that (legitimate?) Targ bastards got the name Blackfyre, but later I found out that Brynden Rivers, and Shierra Seasar were legitimised as well, but Stannis offers Jon the Stark last name, and Ramsay now calls himself Bolton, because he's been legitimised. We know Robert has acknowledged Edric Storm as his bastard, but hasn't legitimised him (I think), but Aegon the Unworthy's bastards were all truly legitimised, so why aren't they Targaryens? How does this work? Sorry if this already has been asked, there was some stuff about bastards on the first few pages, but this wasn't mentioned, and I didn't want to read through the entire thread.

Blackryre was the name Daemon took when Aegon legitimized his bastards. He formed a cadet house and took the name Blackfyre because he was offered the Targaryen sword, Blackfyre. That doesn't mean that all of Aegon's Great Bastards became Blackfyre's, only Daemon and his branch. I don't think there is any hard and fast rule on what name a legitimized bastard is meant to take. Usually, they are made legitimate to put them in the line of succession or to award them familial lands when no heir is available. Often they will take the name of their natural father, hence Ramsay became Bolton. Stannis offers Jon legitimacy as a Stark because (1) Jon's presumed father was Ned, and (2) he was offering him Winterfell which has always been held by a Stark. Aegon legitimizing the Great Bastards was a sort of unique thing as there wasn't any real reason to do it except that he was just an asshole and a shitty king who didn't have any problem knowingly stirring up trouble on his death bed. I would presume that a lot of his newly legitimate Great Bastards didn't take the Targaryen name so as to steer clear of suspicion that they were making a claim to the throne.

Edric Storm was acknowledged, but not made legitimate. This is the same with Jon and Ramsay and the Sand Snakes. I think Mya Stone may have been acknowledged by Robert but I really can't remember. I sort of recall him wanting to bring her to court or something but someone will have to check that.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

Blackryre was the name Daemon took when Aegon legitimized his bastards. He formed a cadet house and took the name Blackfyre because he was offered the Targaryen sword, Blackfyre. That doesn't mean that all of Aegon's Great Bastards became Blackfyre's, only Daemon and his branch. I don't think there is any hard and fast rule on what name a legitimized bastard is meant to take. Usually, they are made legitimate to put them in the line of succession or to award them familial lands when no heir is available. Often they will take the name of their natural father, hence Ramsay became Bolton. Stannis offers Jon legitimacy as a Stark because (1) Jon's presumed father was Ned, and (2) he was offering him Winterfell which has always been held by a Stark. Aegon legitimizing the Great Bastards was a sort of unique thing as there wasn't any real reason to do it except that he was just an asshole and a shitty king who didn't have any problem knowingly stirring up trouble on his death bed. I would presume that a lot of his newly legitimate Great Bastards didn't take the Targaryen name so as to steer clear of suspicion that they were making a claim to the throne.

Edric Storm was acknowledged, but not made legitimate. This is the same with Jon and Ramsay and the Sand Snakes. I think Mya Stone may have been acknowledged by Robert but I really can't remember. I sort of recall him wanting to bring her to court or something but someone will have to check that.

Ah thanks that explains a lot. I was so confused! Bastards are complicated :P I actually put Edric Storm in because I wanted to explain that I understood why he didn't have the Baratheon name, but then I forgot to write that down :P

[TheCrannogDweller]

I would presume that a lot of his newly legitimate Great Bastards didn't take the Targaryen name so as to steer clear of suspicion that they were making a claim to the throne.

I don't think that's the reason, because Bittersteel actually supported the Blackfyre claim.

As for the Great Bastards - there were just 4 of them - 3 excluding Daemon Blackfyre. Both Brynden and Aegor had the surname Rivers, because their mothers were from the Riverlands - one was a Blackwood, the other - a Bracken (two houses that have a lot of animosity between them - just like the two Bastards), and the last one - Shiera Seastar, was from a Valyrian noble woman from Lys - hence the unusual surname.

Daemon's case was unique - his mother was Aegon's cousin Daena Targaryen - and IIRC he's the only Targ-Targ bastard in the history of Westeros. Or at least he's the only one that has been legitimized.

Why Brynden and Aegor weren't called Targaryen is an interesting question. Although, if you had such awesome nicknames like Bloodraven and Bittersteel, I don't think you'll care that much what your surname is. :D

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

I don't think that's the reason, because Bittersteel actually supported the Blackfyre claim.

As for the Great Bastards - there were just 4 of them - 3 excluding Daemon Blackfyre. Both Brynden and Aegor had the surname Rivers, because their mothers were from the Riverlands - one was a Blackwood, the other - a Bracken (two houses that have a lot of animosity between them - just like the two Bastards), and the last one - Shiera Seastar, was from a Valyrian noble woman from Lys - hence the unusual surname.

Daemon's case was unique - his mother was Aegon's cousin Daena Targaryen - and IIRC he's the only Targ-Targ bastard in the history of Westeros. Or at least he's the only one that has been legitimized.

Why Brynden and Aegor weren't called Targaryen is an interesting question. Although, if you had such awesome nicknames like Bloodraven and Bittersteel, I don't think you'll care that much what your surname is. :D

Aegon the Unworthy legitimised ALL his bastards (on his deathbed if I'm not mistaken). So Bloodraven and Sierra Seastar were legitimised as well!

I do like your explanation that Daemon was a Targ-Targ, that makes sense. But still, aren't bastards named after where they're FATHERS are from usually? Or is it about where they're born?

[TheCrannogDweller]

Aegon the Unworthy legitimised ALL his bastards (on his deathbed if I'm not mistaken). So Bloodraven and Sierra Seastar were legitimised as well!

I do like your explanation that Daemon was a Targ-Targ, that makes sense. But still, aren't bastards named after where they're FATHERS are from usually? Or is it about where they're born?

He did legitimize all of his bastards on his deathbed, but my point was - the term "Great Bastards" applies only to those four, because their mothers were from noble families.

On your question - I don't know, but I guess they would be named according to the place they were born - after all, the point of being a bastard is that you don't have a legitimate father.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

He did legitimize all of his bastards on his deathbed, but my point was - the term "Great Bastards" applies only to those four, because their mothers were from noble families.

On your question - I don't know, but I guess they would be named according to the place they were born - after all, the point of being a bastard is that you don't have a legitimate father.

I think it's said somewhere in the books that it applies to where their father is from (maybe in AGOT), but I guess that was just an inconsistency in the books then, or I'm just plainly wrong. In general it seems to apply to where they're born, Mya Stone, Edric Storm.. The strange thing then is that Catelyn thinks Jon is Ashara Dayne's child, while his name is Snow.

[TheCrannogDweller]

I think it's said somewhere in the books that it applies to where their father is from (maybe in AGOT), but I guess that was just an inconsistency in the books then, or I'm just plainly wrong. In general it seems to apply to where they're born, Mya Stone, Edric Storm.. The strange thing then is that Catelyn thinks Jon is Ashara Dayne's child, while his name is Snow.

Well, I don't know what to tell you about that one - maybe it is an inconsistency. Or maybe Jon is a unique case himself. Or maybe, since he grew up in the North, he got the northern bastard surname.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

Well, I don't know what to tell you about that one - maybe it is an inconsistency. Or maybe Jon is a unique case himself. Or maybe, since he grew up in the North, he got the northern bastard surname.

That's alright, I guess it doesn't really matter. My main question was about the Brynden Rivers and Blackfyre and why not Targ, and I've got some satisfying answers, so I'm good.. No more sleepless nights about that one ;)

[Dragonfish]

Blackryre was the name Daemon took when Aegon legitimized his bastards. He formed a cadet house and took the name Blackfyre because he was offered the Targaryen sword, Blackfyre.

Just wanted to clear something up here: Daemon was given his surname when Aegon IV acknowledged him as his bastard and gave him the sword Blackfyre. Then a few years later Aegon legitimized him, but Daemon chose to keep the name Blackfyre.

Edric Storm was acknowledged, but not made legitimate. This is the same with Jon and Ramsay and the Sand Snakes.

Ramsay was actually legitimized in one of the last books.

I think Mya Stone may have been acknowledged by Robert but I really can't remember. I sort of recall him wanting to bring her to court or something but someone will have to check that.

IIRC, Mya has never been officially acknowledged, but it's an open secret who her father is (except to her, of course).

I think it's said somewhere in the books that it applies to where their father is from (maybe in AGOT), but I guess that was just an inconsistency in the books then, or I'm just plainly wrong. In general it seems to apply to where they're born, Mya Stone, Edric Storm.. The strange thing then is that Catelyn thinks Jon is Ashara Dayne's child, while his name is Snow.

There is no hard and fast rule for bastard naming. The parents are free to choose the name, and they may choose from among the typical regional bastard names, a new name of their own devising, or none at all. If they go for the regional name, then they may presumably make their choice based on where one of the parents is from, where the child was born, or where the child was raised. In other words, the parents have some flexibility in naming their bastard.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

Just wanted to clear something up here: Daemon was given his surname when Aegon IV acknowledged him as his bastard and gave him the sword Blackfyre. Then a few years later Aegon legitimized him, but Daemon chose to keep the name Blackfyre.

Thanks!

The quoted part is still a bit blurry to me though. because:

As for the Great Bastards - there were just 4 of them - 3 excluding Daemon Blackfyre. Both Brynden and Aegor had the surname Rivers, because their mothers were from the Riverlands - one was a Blackwood, the other - a Bracken (two houses that have a lot of animosity between them - just like the two Bastards), and the last one - Shiera Seastar, was from a Valyrian noble woman from Lys - hence the unusual surname.

I get that the surname Blackfyre would be cool, but if the great bastards can choose after they're legitimised (and the others were legitimised too, beyond a doubt), why would THEY still choose to remain Rivers and Blackfyre? So I think they can only get that last name when

A. The king gives them that option or

B. There are no other legitimate heirs.

[The Drunkard]

Would Aegon have known the insult he was giving when he made the Tyrells the Overlords of the Reach? Sure they surrendered to him, but it's like if the Poole's were to surrender Winterfell, and the invader decides to make them the head honchos of the North. Just seems odd.

Still, though, I guess the ol' "I have dragons so I can do whatever I want" reasoning could have come into play.

[YoungGriff the Conqueror]

Would Aegon have known the insult he was giving when he made the Tyrells the Overlords of the Reach? Sure they surrendered to him, but it's like if the Poole's were to surrender Winterfell, and the invader decides to make them the head honchos of the North. Just seems odd.

Still, though, I guess the ol' "I have dragons so I can do whatever I want" reasoning could have come into play.

You have to remember the Gardeners got wiped out so there wasn't any chief family in the Reach. It was his choice so he upjumped the Stewards.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Also, they weren't just stewards, but "hereditary high stewards" of the Reach who could trace their descent back to the first king of the Reach. It's probably not stated outright, but it may indeed be that their status could have been considerably higher than the Pooles's.

[LordBloodraven]

Also, they weren't just stewards, but "hereditary high stewards" of the Reach who could trace their descent back to the first king of the Reach. It's probably not stated outright, but it may indeed be that their status could have been considerably higher than the Pooles's.

They weren't hereditary high stewards of the Reach, as Ecthelion, Denethor and Faramir were. Harlen Tyrell was steward of Highgarden when the Gardeners were defeated. The Pooles could have Stark blood for all we know and so with the Cassels. The Tyrells don't even have a seat that we know of before Highgarden

[The Drunkard]

You have to remember the Gardeners got wiped out so there wasn't any chief family in the Reach. It was his choice so he upjumped the Stewards.

Yeah, I realise. I'm comparing the choice of Tyrells, who IIRC are little more than stewards, to people like the Florents or Hightowers, families that could easily get quite angsty having to take orders from stewards.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

They weren't hereditary high stewards of the Reach, as Ecthelion, Denethor and Faramir were. Harlen Tyrell was steward of Highgarden when the Gardeners were defeated. The Pooles could have Stark blood for all we know and so with the Cassels. The Tyrells don't even have a seat that we know of before Highgarden

Well, the only quote I found about that issue calls them hereditary & high.

Following the defeat and death of King Mern IX, at the Field of Fire, Lord Harlen Tyrell, hereditary high steward of the Reach, surrendered Highgarden and was granted the castle along with dominion of the Reach by Aegon the Conqueror.

I'm pretty sure I've never claimed that they were LotR-style stewards, but they obviously were more than just the Gardeners' janitors.

[LordBloodraven]

Well, the only quote I found about that issue calls them hereditary & high.

I'm pretty sure I've never claimed that they were LotR-style stewards, but they obviously were more than just the Gardeners' janitors.

I'll have to check but I'm sure that they were only stewards of Highgarden. On the LOTR thing, I meant like Faramir and his descendants were bestowed the title of High Steward of Gondor by Aragorn after the War of the Ring. The comparison to Denethor is not a good one.

[The Drunkard]

I just had a look at the appendices at the end of a couple of the books, and the phrase 'hereditary high steward' is never mentioned. Harlan Tyrell is referred to as "his [Mern's] steward" only. So I'm not sure if that phrase was found somewhere else, or a wiki error. It doesn't appeared to be sourced, either.