From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIV

[Lady Lea]

Milady is going to tells us later a bit about how the Cupid and Psyche myth informed Villeneuve, but I found this quote from an essay and wanted to bring it to your attention:

Villeneuve's La Belle et la Bete places an unusual emphasis on the visual, an emphasis that is not fully explained by the story of Cupid and Psyche that informs it. Of course, Psyche's transgression--the forbidden gaze she casts upon her handsome lover--is present in inverted form in Villeneuve's tale, so that looking--Beauty's willingness to gaze upon the monster with affection--is the source of the prince's liberation. But the Beast's hideousness is only partially an effect of his visual appearance in Villeneuve's novel. In fact, the Beast is more closely identified with the frightening sounds he makes and with the anxiety-arousing question "Do you want to sleep with me?" than with the visual per se. Instead, it is in the palace itself and in Beauty's dreams that the visual dominates and enchants. Beauty spends more time in her elegant quarters--which feature quantities of brilliant gems, rooms full of dazzling mirrors, beguiling lifelike portraits, and spectacular entertainment--or contemplating the handsome suitor in her dreams than she does interacting with the repulsive Beast. Therefore, the repeated admonition to Belle not to be deceived by appearances seems to bear as much on her nighttime visions and on the palace's sumptuous decor as on the palace's ugly owner. Indeed, Beauty is confused by the lesson that the good Lady of her dreams wants to impress upon her:

Repeatedly I have been told not to rely on appearances. I don't understand it at all. But how silly I am! I'm foolishly trying to find reasons to explain an illusion formed by sleep and which my waking has destroyed. I really shouldn't pay any attention to it. I should just concern myself with my present fate, and seek amusements that will prevent me from succumbing to melancholy [or boredom--"ennui"]. (V 48; Z 170, trans, modified)

Although the dreams transmit the lessons Belle must learn, they also obscure their own importance by raising the problem of illusion. If dreams are just figments of the imagination, then what is Belle to make of the warning not to believe appearances, which is the constant message of the dreams themselves? The problem of perception, and especially of determining the appropriate value of images, runs through her sleeping and waking hours and bewilders Beauty, just as the novel's curious mixture of fantasy and realism troubles Villeneuve's readers. Beauty's uncertainty about how to read the signs around her seems tied to our questions about how to read the novel.

[Ragnorak]

Sooo far behind...

I have a bit of a different take on Tyrion during his marriage to Sansa. First, I fall firmly in the camp that holds Tywin has zero interest in a Lannister claim to the North. If he did he could have married Sansa himself. He could have announced a betrothal to Lancel to stop the Tyrells from taking her and then waited to see how the Northern scenario played out before choosing a final husband for her which would have made far more sense if the North was the end game. He wants the Stark line extinct in the spirit of the Reynes and Tarbecks and he wants Sansa humiliated in the eyes of the other lords. Sansa is supposed to become Tyrion's whore, the dwarf's leavings, and I suspect is intended to bear dwarf children to solidify the humiliating destruction of House Stark. Sansa's tears at the wedding didn't go unnoticed, they were the whole point.

Tze was kind enough to post this in the Tyrion reread thread. I find the idea of Tyrion being in a Lannister prison of his own choosing fairly compelling and also see Sansa as a bride as a "poisoned gift" from Tywin. I see Tyrion's fruitless efforts here (and the entire marriage choice to begin with) as part of this prison dynamic. From this prism both Sansa and Tyrion are prisoners of House Lannister. Both hate Tywin, both hate Joffrey, both hate Cersei. They could be ideal allies here except that the poison that brought them together even kills a detente based on mutual enemies.

I don't hold Tyrion's pointless attempts with Sansa against him. They are selfless in the sense that he is being publicly mocked for her continued virginity and we know that is a particular sore point with him. In the past this almost always resulted in rage or cruelty as a reaction. He could have not married Sansa I suppose but I suspect given Tywin's actual agenda this would have meant a far uglier fate for Sansa. I mostly see two people sharing a prison cell. Two people who combined (not romantically) would have the resources to help each other escape but circumstances are such that they never will.

My current theory is that their time together will be meaningful for both of them. I don't expect any meaningful reunion, but rather in abstentia reflections that help put the future in perspective. I think Sansa recalling Tyrion as "kind' is one such example of this. Marriage is a huge issue for both of them for a variety of positive and negative reasons. It seems to me that their marriage ought to come up again, at least in internal dialogue, as they both resolve their independent marriage problems with other people.

[brashcandy]

Thanks for that post, Ragnorak. Sometimes we concentrate so much on the Beauty of the tale, that we forget to discuss the complexities and compulsions surrounding the Beast. I think it would be useful if Lady Lea does present what we learn about the beast in the aftermath of Villeneuve's tale. Fathers/patriarchs play a very important role in ASOIAF (as they do in beauty and the beast), not only facilitating contact between the beasts and their children (Robert and Ned), but as we see in Tyrion's case, sometimes helping to nurture beastly qualities in their children. I don't believe that the restrictions faced by Sansa and Tyrion in their marriage were equal, neither do I agree with your thoughts that his attempts to reach out to Sansa were "selfless in a sense", but I do understand the overall point you're making.

[brashcandy]

Lady Lea - thanks for that quote, really enjoyed reading. Do you think an argument could be made that it's Beauty's own sexual desires which ultimately lead to her to give into the beast in Villeneuve's tale?

[Grail King]

Just want to jump in real quick like and give congrats to KittyKatKnits, as I am on the wino section of Sansa 12 and I am drinking a nice burgandy wine at the moment.

Back to Sansa 12.

[Milady of York]

Villeneuve's La Belle et la Bete places an unusual emphasis on the visual, an emphasis that is not fully explained by the story of Cupid and Psyche that informs it. Of course, Psyche's transgression--the forbidden gaze she casts upon her handsome lover--is present in inverted form in Villeneuve's tale, so that looking--Beauty's willingness to gaze upon the monster with affection--is the source of the prince's liberation. But the Beast's hideousness is only partially an effect of his visual appearance in Villeneuve's novel. In fact, the Beast is more closely identified with the frightening sounds he makes and with the anxiety-arousing question "Do you want to sleep with me?" than with the visual per se. Instead, it is in the palace itself and in Beauty's dreams that the visual dominates and enchants. Beauty spends more time in her elegant quarters--which feature quantities of brilliant gems, rooms full of dazzling mirrors, beguiling lifelike portraits, and spectacular entertainment--or contemplating the handsome suitor in her dreams than she does interacting with the repulsive Beast. Therefore, the repeated admonition to Belle not to be deceived by appearances seems to bear as much on her nighttime visions and on the palace's sumptuous decor as on the palace's ugly owner. Indeed, Beauty is confused by the lesson that the good Lady of her dreams wants to impress upon her:

Repeatedly I have been told not to rely on appearances. I don't understand it at all. But how silly I am! I'm foolishly trying to find reasons to explain an illusion formed by sleep and which my waking has destroyed. I really shouldn't pay any attention to it. I should just concern myself with my present fate, and seek amusements that will prevent me from succumbing to melancholy [or boredom--"ennui"]. (V 48; Z 170, trans, modified)

Although the dreams transmit the lessons Belle must learn, they also obscure their own importance by raising the problem of illusion. If dreams are just figments of the imagination, then what is Belle to make of the warning not to believe appearances, which is the constant message of the dreams themselves? The problem of perception, and especially of determining the appropriate value of images, runs through her sleeping and waking hours and bewilders Beauty, just as the novel's curious mixture of fantasy and realism troubles Villeneuve's readers. Beauty's uncertainty about how to read the signs around her seems tied to our questions about how to read the novel.

Lea, many thanks for that quote. After this wonderful essay you've cited, there's nothing I could add, for that practically says all I had in mind and more, it's a concise explanation of the link in the dream sequence I was going to talk about. Thumbs up!

[Caro99]

Again LL, fabulous work! Villenueve’s version is so interesting that I am ashamed to admit I hadn’t known about it before!

Great catch about Tywin btw. What you said and then what Ragnorak came up with just make me feel angry about such a clever cold man. I wonder what he was indeed thinking. Beside Hoster Tully and the mother of Prince Doran, I can’t see many lords or regents rejecting marrying their daughters to Tyrion if it meant that they would be the fathers-in-law of The Mrs. Lannister. Jaime was indeed in the Kingsguard, and since Tywin may not have cared to marry again and produced an heir before or after he realized Jaime wouldn’t be his heir, I wonder if he maybe though Myrcella or Tommen could be the next owners of the Rock.

Also, when Beauty gives up her idea of “being” with the Unknown, it reminded me of Alayne thinking that Ser Loras would never kiss a bastard girl. It was unexpected and not very good for the plot I think to have Beauty in the end revealed to be a noble, but it does indeed echo what will happen with the Alayne=Sansa Stark revelation when the time for it arrives.

Beauty’s father, the Queen and the fairy sum up in some way the different types of bad parents out there- at least in Westeros.

And also, I hope that if Sansa does end up recalling Tyrion as kind, that will help solidify friendships that may come in handy between houses after and if the Others are defeated.

[Lady Lea]

Lady Lea - thanks for that quote, really enjoyed reading. Do you think an argument could be made that it's Beauty's own sexual desires which ultimately lead to her to give into the beast in Villeneuve's tale?

I'm glad it was useful :)

I don't know, Brash, I think Beauty was more drawn to the Beast than she cared to admit. She had attributed all sorts of unpleasant adjectives to him, but when she starts seeing that his nature is gentle and forms a more favourable opinion of his character, she reinterprets his actions in a more flattering way. For example, his monosyllabic answers which she deemed a mark of stupidity she later saw as "prudent".

So she definitely resisted positive feelings towards him for a while, but she gradually starts to desire him. Of course, the pressure from the Fairy and her family helped her to make the final decision, but in my opinion she did not say yes to him against her will. She may not have loved the Beast completely but I think there was some feeling there.

(ETA: also, I really like the parallel you've drawn regarding Sansa disguised as a bastard and Beauty being passed off as a merchant's daughter! very astute)

[Milady of York]

Do you think an argument could be made that it's Beauty's own sexual desires which ultimately lead to her to give into the beast in Villeneuve's tale?

I think so. In both tales. In Psyche's case, it could be argued that it was so, her own sexual desire led her to disobey the temporary prohibition of not looking at Cupid until her child was born, if we go by the interpretation that one of her sisters symbolises flesh and she was the first of the two who talked her into lighting the lamp and uncovering that unknown lover. There is one difference in both cases, that of Beast showing her via daily dreams what he really was like on one side and showing him what he was like on the other in the light of day: he is the nocturnal potential lover and the quotidian potential husband. There's a pattern - dream sequence I call it- that is this: by night, he shows his true nature as Cupid does, she sees him and is able to elaborate and clarify her thoughts both by herself and thanks to the Fairy, whilst Psyche gets to experience what Beauty can only sense, and doesn't reflect on it; and by day the Beast shows his beastly nature, so Beauty knows both sides, something Psyche never did: she only knew Cupid was tender and an enjoyable bed companion -that's why the Roman tale is more about sexual desire than any other retelling- but she didn't know what he was or what would he be like as a husband and father. Beast, by asking her every night if she wants to sleep with him, is trying to get Beauty to make the connection -the missing link- between the man in the dream and himself, but she refuses, she's not yet aware of the clues, but she finds she’s getting drawn to him as the dreams continue unfolding. It's a slow process of sexual awakening (Psyche's is sudden), and the connection is made via the gaze, that’s female desire, with good results in the Villeneuve version and disastrous in Apuleius’. It’s because of this pattern that some scholars think the inspiration for Cupid and Psyche was a woman’s dream that got to Apuleius’ ears only the Old Gods and R'hllor and Zeus maybe know how, and that’s also why some, like the author of that essay and meself, think Beauty and the Beast by Villeneuve is a subversive replay of the Roman tale, with elements added to suit the times and the morals the author saw fit.

[Ragnorak]

Thanks for that post, Ragnorak. Sometimes we concentrate so much on the Beauty of the tale, that we forget to discuss the complexities and compulsions surrounding the Beast. I think it would be useful if Lady Lea does present what we learn about the beast in the aftermath of Villeneuve's tale. Fathers/patriarchs play a very important role in ASOIAF (as they do in beauty and the beast), not only facilitating contact between the beasts and their children (Robert and Ned), but as we see in Tyrion's case, sometimes helping to nurture beastly qualities in their children. I don't believe that the restrictions faced by Sansa and Tyrion in their marriage were equal, neither do I agree with your thoughts that his attempts to reach out to Sansa were "selfless in a sense", but I do understand the overall point you're making.

From Sansa's narrative perspective I think one of the most important aspects of this marriage is that it is the first time someone tries to remove her "Stark" identity. It also shows us the first example of Sansa "protected" by being cloaked in another identity. For all the problems the Tyrion marriage presents, it is a shield from the beatings and a shield from being raped by Joffrey. Her lesson in KL has been "trust no one," but at some point in the future I think she'll have to start trusting someone. In Tyrion's case there is a huge Tysha parallel. Tywin is trying to make him rape his wife again and turn her into a whore. This time he refuses. Much like their unconsummated and clothed marriage bed, there is no overlap or mutual influence on each other for good (like Ned and Cat) or ill (like Robert and Cersei.)

Tyrion's suggestion of getting away from KL and visiting Casterly Rock from Sansa's perspective is awful (Sure, genius, I'd love to see the seat of power that beat me, married me to you, and killed my father, mother, sister and brother-- How romantic!) But from Tyrion's perspective this is his desire to be loved confronting his Lannister nature and very significant in his own development. There is no real relationship at all between the two that one would expect from even the coldest of marriages, but in both their cases the marriages carry huge future potential. Imagine LF making unwanted advances and Sansa thinking, "Even Tyrion didn't..."

From a B&B perspective what does this make Tywin? He can be viewed as the one that put the Beast curse on Tyrion and plays the immediate role of the father who gives Beauty to the Beast.

Lykos had an interesting post in the Tyrion reread. With Mord in the Skycell, Tyrion asks for peas and a leg of lamb. In his exchange over dinner with Sansa they're eating mutton and pease. Lykos brought up Hans Christian Andersen´s fairy tales. The Princess and the Pea has some potential and I think The Snow Queen might be worth a look from Sansa's perspective at some point in the future. I'm still convinced that lamb and peas have some profound symbolism that still eludes me.

[Milady of York]

I'm still convinced that lamb and peas have some profound symbolism that still eludes me.

Milady isn't so sure about pea symbolism, but thinks Ragnorak will find about lambs and rams in Psyche's tasks. ;)

[brashcandy]

(ETA: also, I really like the parallel you've drawn regarding Sansa disguised as a bastard and Beauty being passed off as a merchant's daughter! very astute)

Thank you! :) It's really interesting to consider how Sansa moves from nobility to bastardy and the effects this will have on her relationships with the beasts around her along with her own psychological development. We've seen her becoming more attuned to her beastly nature - erotic dreams, hearing wolf howls, not wanting to be tied down in a marriage - so I think Martin has to be setting her up for some kind of reconnection with one or more of the central beasts in her story arc.

It’s because of this pattern that some scholars think the inspiration for Cupid and Psyche was a woman’s dream that got to Apuleius’ ears only the Old Gods and R'hllor and Zeus maybe know how, and that’s also why some, like the author of that essay and meself, think Beauty and the Beast by Villeneuve is a subversive replay of the Roman tale, with elements added to suit the times and the morals the author saw fit.

Very enlightening. The whole act of coming and going, asking and refusing, establishes a kind of erotic pattern in the relationship between Villeneuve's Beauty and the Beast, and I do like the idea of it being a subversive replay of the Roman tale. I think Sandor's coming to Sansa's room on the night of the Blackwater and asking her to leave with him, then being rejected as he sees it, presents us with some suggestive parallels. Her thoughts in that first chapter of ASOS when she's reflecting on that night support this:

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her away from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she’d been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she’d kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside … she could scarcely imagine it.

From Sansa's narrative perspective I think one of the most important aspects of this marriage is that it is the first time someone tries to remove her "Stark" identity. It also shows us the first example of Sansa "protected" by being cloaked in another identity. For all the problems the Tyrion marriage presents, it is a shield from the beatings and a shield from being raped by Joffrey.

I'm not sure if the marriage would have protected her in the long run from Joffrey, but it does present an obstacle to LF marrying her off right away, which is good.

From a B&B perspective what does this make Tywin? He can be viewed as the one that put the Beast curse on Tyrion and plays the immediate role of the father who gives Beauty to the Beast.

Lykos had an interesting post in the Tyrion reread. With Mord in the Skycell, Tyrion asks for peas and a leg of lamb. In his exchange over dinner with Sansa they're eating mutton and pease. Lykos brought up Hans Christian Andersen´s fairy tales. The Princess and the Pea has some potential and I think The Snow Queen might be worth a look from Sansa's perspective at some point in the future. I'm still convinced that lamb and peas have some profound symbolism that still eludes me.

Definitely agree about Tywin, and thanks for the link to Lykos's post. I'll have a look at those fairytales. As for the peas and lambs, I wish I could help, but maybe something will spark later :)

[Newstar]

There is no real relationship at all between the two that one would expect from even the coldest of marriages, but in both their cases the marriages carry huge future potential.

I don't know about that; Sansa has not wavered from her conviction that she doesn't want Tyrion as a husband (although her thought towards the end of AFFC that she didn't want to be married again, "not now and maybe not ever," suggests that she's been turned off marriage altogether) since their wedding day. It doesn't mean she wanted him to die in order to be rid of him (thus her mixed feelings about the prospect of widowhood), but her thoughts on marriage to Tyrion were and remain a big, fat "DO NOT WANT."

That doesn't necessarily rule out "future potential" for some kind of working "collegial" alliance if they ever have to interact in the future, though, assuming they can get past the marriage fiasco. On that note (potential for a working relationship), I remembered something interesting on reread. In her first chapter of ACOK, when she interacts with Tyrion at Joffrey's tourney, Sansa inwardly thinks of Tyrion as follows:

He speaks more gently than foffrey, she thought, but the queen spoke to me gently too. He's still a Lannister, her brother and Joff's uncle, and no friend [emphasis added]. Once she had loved Prince Joffrey with all her heart, and admired and trusted his mother, the queen. They had repaid that love and trust with her father's head. Sansa would never make that mistake again.

And she sticks to that pretty consistently. However, in AFFC, she thinks the following of Littlefinger:

He was Petyr, her protector, warm and funny and gentle...but he was also Littlefinger, the lord she'd known at King's Landing, smiling slyly and stroking his beard as he whispered in Queen Cersei's ear. And Littlefinger was no friend of hers. When Joff had her beaten, the Imp defended her, not Littlefinger. When the mob sought to rape her, the Hound carried her to safety, not Littlefinger. When the Lannisters wed her to Tyrion against her will, Ser Garlan the Gallant gave her comfort, not Littlefinger.

She seems to lump Tyrion in with others she would consider friends (or ambiguous love interests, if you ship SanSan, I guess), or at least helpers, while it's Littlefinger (if not Petyr) who's "no friend." She also phrases it "when the Lannisters wed her to Tyrion against her will," rather than "when Tyrion wed her against her will," which would be probably a more accurate phrasing; her phrasing seems to distinguish between the hated Lannisters and the (somewhat less-hated) Tyrion.

Shortly thereafter, there's this passage which lumps Tyrion in with her family members:

She would have fled them both, perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go. Winterfell was burned and desolate, Bran and Rickon dead and cold. Robb had been

betrayed and murdered at the Twins, along with their lady mother. Tyrion had been put to death for killing Joffrey, and if she ever returned to King's Landing the queen would have her head as well. The aunt she'd hoped would keep her safe had tried to murder her instead. Her uncle Edmure was a captive of the Freys, while her great-uncle the Blackfish was under siege at Riverrun. I have no place but here. Sansa thought miserably, and no true friend but Petyr.

Tyrion's the only non-relative mentioned in that list. Granted, she might be thinking of him more charitably as she believed that he was dead (and therefore represented no threat of forcing her hated marriage down her throat), but it's an interesting change.

In terms of a potential working relationship, it seems significant that the only Starks who were antagonistic towards Tyrion (Robb and Cat) are dead, and that Tyrion has non-antagonistic relationships with Bran and Jon. If Tyrion sides with Dany, maybe Tyrion's pre-established relationships with Bran, Jon, and possibly Sansa (again, assuming they can get past the marriage) will pave the way for a Stark/Targaryen working alliance.

[brashcandy]

Tyrion's the only non-relative mentioned in that list. Granted, she might be thinking of him more charitably as she believed that he was dead (and therefore represented no threat of forcing her hated marriage down her throat), but it's an interesting change.

I didn't see it so much as a change, as it was that she was listing all those whom she had firm information on, as in either dead or captured. Sandor is conspicuous in his absence here, and it's because she doesn't know what has happened to him, as well I think perhaps Martin's way of hinting that he will be the one to help her. Of course, we readers know that Tyrion isn't dead, so he too could make a reappearance.

[Milady of York]

Very enlightening. The whole act of coming and going, asking and refusing, establishes a kind of erotic pattern in the relationship between Villeneuve's Beauty and the Beast, and I do like the idea of it being a subversive replay of the Roman tale. I think Sandor's coming to Sansa's room on the night of the Blackwater and asking her to leave with him, then being rejected as he sees it, presents us with some suggestive parallels. Her thoughts in that first chapter of ASOS when she's reflecting on that night support this:

Exactly. That pattern is proof of how the Greco-Roman myth got into the fairy tale we know today through its inclusion in the French tale. If not for that, there'd be a missing link in the chain than connects it to its origins in Antiquity.

The parallels I see, therefore, are these: Cupid is a flesh and blood lover by night and is a "beast" by day, Beast shows himself as a potential lover by night in Belle's dreams and is his beastly self by day, Sandor is a potential lover in Sansa's dreams and is The Hound by day. In all three cases, they trigger the erotic awakening of their respective Beauties, who had made no connection between the diurnal role and the nocturnal role of their respective Beasts until they finally can see them both united via the gaze. We're still to see how it turns out in Sansa's case, though, she's still in the dreaming stage.

[Ragnorak]

@Newstar

I probably should have elaborated more on that "no relationship" statement. I see both Tyrion and Sansa trapped in their own worlds with no connection between them at all. It is the circumstances of marriage that seem to matter for each of their stories not any spousal relationship they share. Tyrion is trying to recreate Tysha and Sansa is in just another room of her Lannister prison. Insert any spouse and Tyrion is trying to recreate Tysha. Insert any Lannister and Sansa is armored in courtesy and basically just as revolted. It is clear from their POVs that they are just worlds apart.

I don't think this is a good circumstance for either of them and would never be no matter how much time they might spend together. Tyrion can become "kind" now that she's escaped her Lannister cell. When confronted with a rapist like Marillion, a pervert like LF, or an arranged marriage to Harry the Heir her time with Tyrion is a positive in terms of perspective for her future, evaluating how men treat her, and learning to trust again. For Tyrion I think it will be extremely important for his internal struggle to cope with Tysha. The future potential is in each of their own individual stories not in any reunion between the two.

Tyrion resolving Tysha has been there almost his entire arc and that centers around marriage, love and the abusive nature of Lannister power. How he treated Sansa and how she treated him is definitely going to matter in his future regardless of whether or not they ever step foot on the same continent again. Sansa is being confronted by an arranged marriage, unwanted advances from LF, and being exploited for her claim. These are all issues present in her marriage to Tyrion. How Tyrion treated her and how she treated Tyrion during their time together is going to be relevant to her immediate and possibly long term future. It matters because they survived it and it is over not because of any real connection they shared. It is more like Jaime learning caution after his experience with Robb and respecting him for it, not like a Jon/Ygritte connection.

[Lyanna Stark]

Ragnorak,

Great post, and lots of food for thought. It had not occurred to me before that perhaps Tyrion was so trapped in his Lannister prison that he really did toe Tywin's line here and understood that he was party to doing a Reyne and Tarbecks on the Starks by marrying Sansa. Also interesting that even though he goes along with it on a macro level (The Rains of Castemere on anyone opposing the Lannisters!) he still manages to rebel on the personal level.

Hmm, I will have to think some more on it!

EDIT: I think I was viewing Tyrion in a too positive light perhaps, which would shock more than one poster into having to fetch their smelling salts, I am sure. ;)

[ArabellaVidal]

Before I read more in this thread, I would like to re-hash something from an older one. I was reading Lady Candace's wonderful analysis and some of the subsequent discussion (which was kickass, btw!) of the parallels and similarities between Sansa and Ned (PtPX). I wondered where in the re-reads came the discussion of the tourney of the Hand.

For readers, this is a significant event since we are introduced to the various fighters and factions that will be segmented throughout Westeros soon after fighting for various sides. It has a similar significance to the tourney at Harrenhal which was a turning point in Westeros history. How much of the similarities and parallels were discussed and where is the one discussing the Ned/Lyanna attendance with the Ned/Sansa attendance?

One of the posters commented on Ned's ruthlessness when it comes to administration and the dispensation of necessary justice, which I found to be a significant point for Sansa's development. She is becoming more and more of a dark character, isn't she?

It's also an interesting parallel to GRRM's TV Beauty who was lawyer, I think? Was her father in the same field? Will have to wait for the analysis for that.

That was a great thread! Just wanted to express my 'like' without the button. I still haven't gone through all the resource links that brashcandy and QoW kindly provided regarding symbolism because they provide so mush fodder for thought. Thanks, ladies!

[ArabellaVidal]

Yes, you can read it in the English edition linked, the merchant’s children are six sons and six daughters, not three boys and three girls. At the end of the tale, it’s revealed that Belle’s parents are a king and a good fairy.

The palace is under a spell by the evil fairy who raised the orphan Prince who is Beast, so it’s implied that the garden is also magical, which extends to the roses. And it’s winter, not summer. Understanding what the roses mean is more a question of symbolism and reading between the lines, observing the surroundings and why the garden in winter, the storm, the enchanted castle, the statues, the everything. That’s why I said “… on the surface.” To me, the analysis has overlooked much of the symbolism present in the small details, and doesn’t show that it’s a point-counterpoint type of narrative and that there’s more of the Cupid/Psyche dynamic than just a nod and the important link in the dream sequence is out of the analysis. In fact, this one is more like the Roman tale than Beaumont’s when it comes to their interactions.

A big and hearty thankyou for this, Milady! I don't have much patience for analysis while reading on a computer so I never finished the story.

When we get to the rest of the Tyrion analysis, I wanted to bring up the irony of both Tyrion and Sansa wanting to be loved for themselves, but how their marriage to each other was a disaster because it doesn't allow either one of them to be those things - for Sansa she doesn't want to be married to a Lannister and Tyrion has always been first and foremost a Lannister, emphasized by the comment that he tells her he can be the Knight of Flowers in the dark and she knows that's ridiculous, and for Tyrion that he's looking for his Tysha replacement which Sansa can never be.

Very interesting.

- Another thing about the Tyrion/Sansa interaction is that, in Tyrion's eyes, she remains utterly a Stark despite her own laments that they have made her a Lannister. She wouldn't bend her "stiff Stark knees" so he could cloak her with Lannister colors - he had to stand on a fool's back, which indicates that trying to make a Lannister of Sansa is a false fool's errand. Later, on the way to Joffrey's wedding, Tyrion complains to himself that she had a wall of courtesy as icy as the great wall in the North. Ice, remoteness, refusal to bend - all Northern characteristics which once again give the lie to anyone who thinks that Sansa is not a Northerner at heart.

Love it!

Lady Lea, I believe that your analysis reinforces the idea that Villneuve's tale is more about pragmatic and socially stratified unions and is thus has a great correlation with Sansa and Tyrion's union than any other BatB relationship in the ASOIAF books.

Added: And now that I've read the whole thread I want to go and read Michelle Sagara West's Into the Dark Lands, another interesting BtB tale. I want to see if I remember correctly how the problems of identity (Erin to Sara), dreams (she sees Stephanos in his true form and hears his anguish when they're apart), their dinner conversations, their marriage and many things that are coming back about that story. It even predates the writing of ASOIAF having been originally published in 1991. The 'beast' imprisons Erin (a healer/warrior, very Arya like in the beginning) but remains in his adopted form as a human rather than the First Servant of the Dark and she only sees his true form in dreams when she is allowed to escape him. She did also marry and ally herself to Stephanos because there was some potential for the public good rather than just for the sake of romance though that was also a reason. There is also some sort of a garden in the second book.

I never caught the BtB parallel when I read that novel several years ago but I did see a sort of subversive incorporation of the Sleeping Beauty tale towards the end of the first book. Being a fantasy fan, GRRM might have come across that novel, but I'm not really sure. The heroine did have red hair though but that's a flimsy link. Now where is that book?

[fiekie]

I've never posted in this thread though I've been reading it quite a bit (although I havn't gotten around to reading it all yet!) and find myself fascinated by the B&tB theme as applied to Sansa.

I've also been wondering if anyone has gone so far back as the Epic of Gilgamesh in analysing the theme?

Briefly: in tablet 1 of the standard version we find the creation of Enkidu, described as covered in hair, living with wild animals and generally being more beast than man. His first introduction with civilisation is his... experiences with the temple prostitute Shamhat. Although Shamhat plays a very minor role in the epic, I've always found it fascinating that a woman is described as being a man's first introduction to civilisation. Does this remind anyone else of the Sansa/Sandor situation? How she opened him to the more "civilised" aspects of humanity (love/compassion/acceptance etc.)?

Don't want to waste anyone's time though so can someone tell me if this has been discussed somewhere? Else I'll do a more detailed analysis.