From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIV

[brashcandy]

Oh, I completely agree, and in doing so Sansa would also follow LF's lead and keep her hands clean. But Petyr knows about these people. He knows he has wronged them and he knows they do not like him. They are not really hidden, in that regard. Sansa may be considered hidden, but then LF is aware of her, too. And he knows that she knows. What is peculiar about Sansa's connection with Sandor is that nobody knows. Absolutely nobody.

To clarify, I don't think that connection is necessary in itself to bring Littlefinger down, since I tend to believe this will be Sansa's task alone. From the very beginning, she and her family have been the victims of Littlefinger's onslaught and she is the one closest to him and who knows more of his secrets than anyone, possibly barring Varys.

Yeah, it's not that Sandor will show up to fight LF to the death or any other cliched scenario that potentially involves him dying for Sansa after he's vanquished her enemies. Plus, LF doesn't fight with swords - the fiasco of challenging Brandon convinces him to switch battlefields. Sandor is important to Sansa because of the genuine connection formed, meaning that despite LF's best efforts, there's someone out there whom she respects and with whom she has developed a romantic attachment. Given that LF obviously desires her for himself, this is actually the worst possible situation for him and makes Sandor the dangerous unknown. He's already present in the Vale - within Sansa's thoughts and dreams, and considering this is the place which gave birth to the unkiss, its power should not be underestimated.

[ArabellaVidal]

ArabellaVidal, it would indeed be a great move if after all his clever planning and dirty schemes, he is brought down by Sansa turning against him, and if Sandor offers her his help i would not be complaining :D It doesn’t have to be actually killing Petyr, just ruining his plans so that everything starts to fall apart!

I wouldn't complain either.

But, in fact, I never meant to suggest a scenario in which Sandor would physically be present to help Sansa. Brashcandy has pretty much summed up the importance of Sandor as the emotional dagger hidden from all eyes except for the pair involved. The strength of Littlefinger's hold over Sansa is as strong as her complete emotional isolation. Little does he know that Sandor Clegane has supplanted her direwolf, father and husband and that this connection is the strongest one in her mind. I'll have to borrow the books again to see if this is also connected in her mind (explicitly) with her identity as Sansa Stark of Winterfell. Littlefinger's hold over Sansa is not as strong as he believes.

Edit: Just read Brash's excellent new post.

[brashcandy]

Do you maybe see Myranda Royce as a possible accomplice? Her introduction seemed important in some way and she seems savvy enough... and as someone Petyr wouldn't see as a possible threat.

Ah, but Petyr does see her as a possible threat, doesn't he? :) I think Randa's role, if Martin doesn't go the antagonistic route (which is possible, but I hope not), will be to further aid in Sansa's maturity, specifically the sexual development part, and perhaps help Sansa in some tangible manner (I see Mya Stone as the true accomplice, if anyone). But, right now, Randa is focused on finding a husband, and she's centred on LF as a solid possibility, meaning that Martin could have her act as the symbolic wicked stepmother, who harms Sansa in her quest to claim LF's full attentions. tze has shared some thoughts on this before which you might find interesting.

[Lyanna Stark]

I'll have to borrow the books again to see if this is also connected in her mind (explicitly) with her identity as Sansa Stark of Winterfell. Littlefinger's hold over Sansa is not as strong as he believes.

She does. Even in the Alayne chapters, she always connects it with Sansa's memories and even once stating when she seemed bitter about him leaving "..that day was done, and so was Sansa." While in the Vale, she also seems to be making mental connections between Sandor and her direwolf, in the role as protector and also marriage beds. I think it was Milady who posted a stripped down version of Sansa's mental "leaps" with regards to this. I'll see if I can dig it out.

[Lummel]

Do you maybe see Myranda Royce as a possible accomplice? Her introduction seemed important in some way and she seems savvy enough... and as someone Petyr wouldn't see as a possible threat.

I see everyone as a potential accomplice! I don't think that GRRM will have a problem converting any number of people in the Vale into convincing allies for Sansa - I mean convincing to us readers. I don't feel particularly curious as to who Sansa wins over, I'm more interested in what the trigger will be: news about Jon maybe, perhaps the revelation that Lord Baelish was involved in her father's death or possibly the announcement that Rickon lives and has been proclaimed Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North by the Manderlys. There again it might be Vale events or some particularly gross attempt on her honour :dunno:

[ArabellaVidal]

I see everyone as a potential accomplice! I don't think that GRRM will have a problem converting any number of people in the Vale into convincing allies for Sansa - I mean convincing to us readers. I don't feel particularly curious as to who Sansa wins over, I'm more interested in what the trigger will be: news about Jon maybe, perhaps the revelation that Lord Baelish was involved in her father's death or possibly the announcement that Rickon lives and has been proclaimed Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North by the Manderlys. There again it might be Vale events or some particularly gross attempt on her honour :dunno:

What do you think about the Mad Mouse factor? Is he an ally of Littlefinger's or a complete wild card? Will Sansa attempt an alliance with him or will he take her away for his own purposes? There is also the missing Blackfish to consider and Tyrion's alliance with the mountain men. Is Littlefinger aware of the events at Riverrun at this point, do you know?

[Little Wing]

Ah, but Petyr does see her as a possible threat, doesn't he? :) I think Randa's role, if Martin doesn't go the antagonistic route (which is possible, but I hope not), will be to further aid in Sansa's maturity, specifically the sexual development part, and perhaps help Sansa in some tangible manner (I see Mya Stone as the true accomplice, if anyone). But, right now, Randa is focused on finding a husband, and she's centred on LF as a solid possibility, meaning that Martin could have her act as the symbolic wicked stepmother, who harms Sansa in her quest to claim LF's full attentions. tze has shared some thoughts on this before which you might find interesting.

Ah, tze's post was really enlightening, thank you! As to the poisoning at the feast - it seems quite possible, seeing as how Starks fare at feasts :crying: but I hope Martin won't take that road again...

What do you think about the Mad Mouse factor? Is he an ally of Littlefinger's or a complete wild card? Will Sansa attempt an alliance with him or will he take her away for his own purposes? There is also the missing Blackfish to consider and Tyrion's alliance with the mountain men. Is Littlefinger aware of the events at Riverrun at this point, do you know?

I'd so much love for the Blackfish to mess up Littlefinger's plans!

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Re LF's plans: In addition to the points raised above, I'm not entirely sure that Bronze Yohn doesn't have at least a clue as to who "Alayne" might really be. Sansa recalls him visiting Winterfell at least once, and remembers that he talks with her mother in addition to fighting with the men.

Sansa bears a very strong resemblance to her mother, not just in her hair color but in her eye color, face and figure. People wouldn't constantly be remarking on her resemblance to Catelyn if the only thing in common was red hair. And I'm here to tell you, as a woman who has gone through all the hair colors of the rainbow, had long hair, short hair, straight hair, curly hair and for a brief time, NO hair - just changing your hair color is a poor disguise. The only times I've not had people recognize me with a change of hair color is from a distance and for a brief time. My figure, face, mannerisms, expressions, etc. stayed the same. So if someone was looking me full in the face, they'd know it was me.

BY probably hasn't seen Sansa since she was a little girl but he knows Catelyn, and who he saw when he frowned and said "Do I know you, girl?" was no doubt a young Catelyn with the same blue eyes but with dark brown hair. Even if he didn't think "a-ha! Sansa Stark!" right away, he's probably suspicious, at the very least, as to why a girl who is the right age to be Sansa and looks an awful lot like Catelyn is Petyr Baelish's long-lost bastard daughter. What BY is going to do about it, I have no idea, but we do know (though Sansa doesn't) that he deeply resented Lysa's forbidding him from calling his banners to Robb's aid.

What might happen is the Blackfish pops up, they put two and two together that this Catelyn-look-alike is in fact Sansa, and Blackfish, who knew what went down with Petyr and Catelyn, might well be thinking "LF has Sansa here because he's grooming her to be a replacement Catelyn. EW. Yes indeedily, Lord Royce, that's Sansa. We've got to rescue her." We knew Blackfish and Catelyn were close, that Catelyn confided in him, and even if he never actually met Sansa I'm sure the Blackfish would want to do right by her for Catelyn's sake.

[Milady of York]

Thanks to you all, ladies, for the insightful responses.

Caro:

This bit actually reminded me of Sandor. Sansa, a maid of the highest blood and princess of Winterfell, could be Venus who ends up having a child with a mortal lover, (Sandor who can be “Mortal” due to his lower birth”, and who is a man who has fled the fires that almost destroyed KL. I guess he could be said to have undergone a lot of hardships and unfair trials because he won the enmity of the smallfolk mainly because of his brother and the house he used to serve.

Sandor has also undergone a long journey from the first time he appeared in Winterfell’s courtyard mocking Robb to the man he is now in the QI, not only geographically but physically and emotionally, and thus I hope he can one day establish himself somewhere in the ancient North with a little bird in tow.

In this tale, I see Venus more like Cersei. She was married to someone she didn’t choose: Hephaistos, the smith god, but she had affairs outside of marriage to her heart’s content, and none of her children were her husband’s. She was in love with her brother Ares, but she was forced by her father Zeus to marry Hephaistos, who later would divorce her for her adulteries. She had numerous sons with Ares, and also with some other gods and mortals. Aeneas and his brother were her sons by Anchises, a mortal nobleman. And there’s also the detail that Venus had her own younger, more beautiful nemesis in Psyche.

Bgona:

First: Why is the spiritual travel of the woman? Why this difference from the man? As if a man has to grow differently than a woman, while they can be also just explained for both.

This is the hero journey of a female, inherently different from the hero journey of a male; this is about personal development explored through love, marriage and motherhood from a female protagonist’s point of view and there is a lot of symbolism attached to female psychology only, something not usual in Greco-Roman mythology and literature, where the hero is always a male and usually don’t touch women’s issues but broader ones.

The name of Aegina brings to my mind the name of Aegon. Can they have any similarity? Some of the known Aegon?

I personally do not see any. Aegina was a nymph, so we can say that in this case, a cigar is just a cigar.

And I just want to remember that she was defined as "sweet as honey" by The Tickle at the Inn.

I doubt the Tickler was thinking like a Roman here, but I see why his interlocutor didn’t dispute that compliment. It’s interesting how much you learn on re-reads. Even fairy tales and myths need re-reading, for I had missed a lot on my first read of Cupid and Psyche, and not until re-reading the original in Latin I caught some small yet significant details, such as the honey reference and Eros’ reputation.

Lyanna:

There is also second hand evidence of how unique her action was in that in later chapters, we see Cersei and Kevan reflect on him as a tool. A useful tool, but a tool all the same. Tyrion and Tywin seem to lump him in with his brother: a useful hellhound to let loose on your enemies, but nothing you feed at the table (Tywin's own words). Sansa, on the other hand, sees his humanity and reaches it, when everyone else sees him as something akin to a useful machine.

I agree with this. I can see it in this legend with Cupid as well, his mother dotes on him, but has no scruples in using him for her own plans and doesn’t care about his personal feelings so much, because she’s judged him as an irredeemable rascal, not worth bothering to teach some useful manners. She wants him as her immature pretty son and her personal “hellhound to let loose” on whomever she wishes to, as do the others, especially the Fates, and he doesn’t care about being just a tool, and even is happy being one, he loves it as the Cleganes love killing, until Psyche comes around and humanises him. Sure, there’s still a ferocious and deadly aspect to him, but he’s got his Soul and his Delight, so he’s more balanced now.

[Caro99]

Arabella, yes you are right. Sandor doesn’t need to be present to help her out. The strong bondage that seems to keep making Sansa remember him is strong and meaningful, and I dobt we have seen the last of it J

KRBD: I would like it for the Blackfish to meet up with Sansa

Milady, I didn’t know all that, but of course Cersei and venus resemble each other!!

[Milady of York]

Cannot be stressed enough. There's been so many superficial labels applied to the relationship Sansa has with Sandor, with the focus you noted on "bad boy" reformation, but when one actually looks at their dynamic throughout the series, we see it's about their internal growth, and the peculiar affect they were able to have on one another. Now that we're grounding their relationship within the B&B mythology, it becomes more evident how it's not just about any Beauty and any Beast, but the particular qualities of both that have made it special.

I'm actually not sure why people are so super keen on looking at it with such a reductive view. It's very often you see posters, even commited fans, insisting that it's shallow, cliche or predictable, when it's anything but. As we have seen through the reread and rethinking threads, the Sandor/Sansa relationship is raelly dynamic. It's changing and evolving on the pages. It strikes me as the opposite of shallow.

It's also interesting to note for the naysayers that a lot of their respective character growth takes place when they are parted, but that the connection between them remains.

Indeed. And it mirrors the B&B central plot where the connection between Beauty and the Beast grows stronger when she returns to her father's house and they're separated.

It was never about any Beauty. Psyche and Belle are both very beautiful girls, and that’s the first thing everyone notices, because it’s obvious to the eye, but neither of them are just a fragile doll to gape at and lust after. Psyche is kind, sweet, empathetic, compassionate, and courageous, she can suffer trials and beatings with grace, even if it hurts her so much she thinks of suicide. Similarly, Belle is kind, amiable, helpful, compassionate, loves reading and music, etc. Sansa is a mix of both, but more like Psyche because of her strength and ability to get through trials shedding her innocent self and maturing along the way without losing her main qualities.

And it’s not about any Beast either. Eros is a ruthless piece of work, he could have killed Psyche, after all this wasn’t the first beautiful and innocent woman he had shot without qualms, as many victims could attest. Clegane also had, by his own admission, killed women and children, and therefore scaring another little child out of her shell should have been no special affair for him, no matter how beautiful the child was.

You cannot transform just any beast or reform a bad boy into a good boy, going from black to white, because you think you can. Both these girls know what their beasts are like, and yet, they are able to see beyond that and treat them compassionately and lovingly like nobody had before. They never consciously outline an ambitious plan of converting them into what they aren’t, they want them to be what they know they can be, what they’ve seen in them; they affect them without thinking, reacting to them as their goodness impels them to. Because this is about bringing forth the qualities the beast already possesses. Not all beasts are “transformable,” they have to be of a certain material, if not, he’ll remain a beast for good, and the beauties must be as well, or they’re just dolls who’ll never achieve either their personal growth or influence the beast’s.

Independently from the circumstances where they met first, once the seeds are planted and their journey begins separately, they begin to sprout, a tree grows and grows stronger, taller, until it reaches maturity and they see the fruits it carries, they are able to connect it to the original seeds and who planted them, and then, only then, they choose to go back to that person, with whom they had not lost a connection of sorts, because separation benefits their character growth, not truncates it. When Belle is at her father’s, she dreams of Beast dying, and decides to go back to him; she’s been able to see him as a potential husband during that separation. When Psyche has to undergo these trials, she senses Cupid needs her and is trying desperately to escape the prison his mother has locked him in, she wants to be with him again, and because of that she can get help from people who owe Cupid some favours. Sansa dreams of her beast as a potential mate whilst he’s far from her and “dead” to everyone else…

Definitely, it’s not about some shallow, clichéd and boring bad boy reformation. In a version, Belle is a bit disappointed that the Beast turns out to be a prince, and she asks “but where is Beast?” :D

[bgona]

Woooow!!!! Right now my mind is running after reading that Tze post. Thanks Brash.

The first that came to my mind: Is it Joffrey Snow White? He was the one that died poisoned. He is the one that brought the dwarfs (LF idea, but Joffrey agreed finally). He was the one with the wicked mother.

Maybe he was a false Snow White.

I remind the tale of Snow White about 3 attempts to kill Snow White. The third one was the apple (Myranda is the poisoned apple: she is poisoning Sansa virtue).

In addition: Sansa is almost begging for the Kiss of the Stranger (and Sandor more than the Warrior is the Stranger, before he killed people with his sword, now he is digging their tombs, and the Stranger is half animal, half human, that people don´t know how to represent it). I say that Sansa is almost begging for the kiss of the Stranger due to all her bitter for his departure, leaving only a cloak and a kiss.

--------------

About Sandor interfiering at the Vale thru Sansa thoughts: I have this idea that Sandor´s dreams are to Sansa the same than Nymeria´s dreams to Arya. Their union to the Stark inside them. It is their anchor to not get lost in their false identities.

[bgona]

KRBD I agree with you that changing only the hair color is a poor diguise. Sansa looks a lot to her mother, but it seems more beautiful than her.

Anyway I remember once that a friend dye her hair but also cut it, dressing differently (cause she felt different). I had been with her the day before at the same class, same seats. The day after that hair change I didn´t recognize her. Neither our other friend. We seat together, we got lunch together. And it was as if a different person was there.

I have recall that Robar Royce (BY son) fought at the Hand Tourney against Lothor Brune (Apple-Eater :P, maybe Myranda eater ).

[bgona]

Milady the Aegon-Aegina is just about how their name are writen. It is just that, because it has surprise me that at Spanish we take the initial A.

About the Tickel jajajajajaja I doubt also that he was thinking the Roman idea! More as The Maiden and The Bear sense.

Anyway it is amazing that Sandor agreed with that description and that he added a reference to her behaviour as a Lady.

Edit: I just want to say to Milady: I agree with all about your last post :bowdown: ) Maybe even Sansa could have sense at the Vale Sandor pain while dying?

[Milady of York]

She does. Even in the Alayne chapters, she always connects it with Sansa's memories and even once stating when she seemed bitter about him leaving "..that day was done, and so was Sansa." While in the Vale, she also seems to be making mental connections between Sandor and her direwolf, in the role as protector and also marriage beds. I think it was Milady who posted a stripped down version of Sansa's mental "leaps" with regards to this. I'll see if I can dig it out.

Lyanna, do you mean this?

This scene makes you think a lot if you read the sequence of Sansa’s thoughts in each stage:

[bedding, Lysa screams] – The Hound – Sandor Clegane – The old hound – [Rape attempt by Marillion]– [The old dog tries to help and is kicked] – Lothor – The Hound – [Dream].

Notice how her thoughts begin and end with The Hound? And she goes directly from Lothor to Clegane and back to Lothor, which marks the moment she’s probably begun to see him in the role the other left vacant.

One more thing I find interesting, is that after she thinks of him as The Hound, his beastly persona, she immediately switches to Sandor Clegane, the name of the man. It’s not the first time she does that, and I find the circumstances surrounding this pattern of thought very significant because of the results:

First time, in ASOS:

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused.

What’s happening here? = First time she admits to missing him after he left.

Where is she? = King’s Landing, about to meet the Tyrell women.

Where it leads to? = The UnKiss, a short time later.

Second time, in ASOS:

A dog can smell a lie, you know, the Hound had told her once. She could almost hear the rough rasp of his voice. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They’re all liars here, and every one better than you. She wondered what had become of Sandor Clegane. Did he know that they’d killed Joffrey? Would he care?

What’s happening here? = Petyr and Lysa's wedding.

Where is she? = In the banquet, hearing Lysa's screams.

Where it leads to? = Replacing Tyrion with the Hound in her dream, that same night.

Emotional bonds like these two have are hard to break, and harder still if you ignore or understimate them. Milady thinks Mr. Petyr of House Mockingbird is as good as lost.

[Daenerys is my queen]

Lyanna, do you mean this?

One more thing I find interesting, is that after she thinks of him as The Hound, his beastly persona, she immediately switches to Sandor Clegane, the name of the man. It’s not the first time she does that, and I find the circumstances surrounding this pattern of thought very significant because of the results:

First time, in ASOS:

What’s happening here? = First time she admits to missing him after he left.

Where is she? = King’s Landing, about to met the Tyrell women.

Where it leads? = The UnKiss, a short time later.

Second time, in ASOS:

What’s happening here? = Petyr and Lysa's wedding.

Where is she? = In the banquet, hearing Lysa's screams.

Where it leads? = Replacing Tyrion with the Hound in her dream, that same night.

Emotional bonds like these two have are hard to break, and harder still if you ignore or understimate them. Milady thinks Mr. Petyr of House Mockingbird is as good as lost.

:agree:

By the way, hello everyone. I just finished reading the whole thread and you're all awesome. I doubt I could express myself as well as you can but I might try later anyway. :)

[brashcandy]

Welcome DIMQ! Don't worry about eloquence, just jump right in whenever you're ready :)

[ArabellaVidal]

Fantastic answers, thank you, Milady, Brash, Lyanna and Bgona. You are stars!

As to the question of Sansa's disguise, I think Petyr is being clever. The first association that people would make for a Tully or Ned's elder daughter would be the red hair. Bronze Yohn sees that she looks familiar but, if I remember correctly, before he can concentrate more on this thought Littlefinger tells him that she's his daughter Alayne. Bronze Yohn severely dislikes Petyr and would then be understandably slightly blinded by his repulsion and ignore her to show his disdain. He would then pay as little attention to her as possible.

Maybe he will remember this later when he is cooler and thinking straight or something happens to make him see things differently. At the moment, he does not expect to see Sansa so he won't make the connection yet.

[Lummel]

What do you think about the Mad Mouse factor? Is he an ally of Littlefinger's or a complete wild card? Will Sansa attempt an alliance with him or will he take her away for his own purposes? There is also the missing Blackfish to consider and Tyrion's alliance with the mountain men. Is Littlefinger aware of the events at Riverrun at this point, do you know?

What are you asking me for! Since my name isn't George my ideas are as likely to be wrong as everybody elses about the future of the story!

What I have said a few times, here and there, is that the situation with Sansa in the Vale isn't set in stone. There are clearly a lot of people and situations in place that could transform that storyline very quickly even within her first/next chapter while Bran or Jon, for instance, look to be set in their last condition for a bit longer.

The timeline is a good question because what Baelish knows is probably affecting his actions. Looking at Errant Bard's universal timeline his workings out show that the last Sansa chapter happens before the fall of Riverun. Depending on what Cerseism Baelish is commenting on it would be at least the best part of a week before he learns about the surrender of Riverrun. Miranda Royce's gossip about Jon's election was about a month old by the time she got to tell Sansa. Jeyne Poole alias 'Arya' was sent north to marry Ramsey about two months earlier so that piece of news is also around for Sansa to find out about too.

...As to the question of Sansa's disguise, I think Petyr is being clever. The first association that people would make for a Tully or Ned's elder daughter would be the red hair. Bronze Yohn sees that she looks familiar but, if I remember correctly, before he can concentrate more on this thought Littlefinger tells him that she's his daughter Alayne. Bronze Yohn severely dislikes Petyr and would then be understandably slightly blinded by his repulsion and ignore her to show his disdain. He would then pay as little attention to her as possible...

Ah. The Halo effect. :)

[ArabellaVidal]

What are you asking me for! Since my name isn't George my ideas are as likely to be wrong as everybody elses about the future of the story!

Aw, nuts! Really? And here I was, so hopeful! ;)

Thank you for the answer and the links!