White Luck Warrior XI: 11 Hells down, 100 to Go

[Shryke]

Well, wasn't Conphas raised mostly as a hostage in Kian?

Conphas himself and his understanding of the Scylvendi are far more responsible for the victory then anything else.

So there's potential there.

[Kalbear]

It would make a lot of sense. Tons of time and opportunity plus it's valuable to moe - without the scyl losing the empire can't march and the holy war can't happen. And look at what conphas does - he wages war based on intimate knowledge of psychology and culture, not on tactics or strategy.

[Kalbear]

Also, the mandate being potent makes them more heroic than Kellhus, not less.

[Castel]

Also, the mandate being potent makes them more heroic than Kellhus, not less.

You mean impotent right?

If so, it's pretty much stated at one point in the text. The man that gives without any expectation of return is more blessed than the man that gives for reward. And the man that gives for a cause that is likely meaningless or dead must be even more blessed.

Trust me... I've been feeling that way for the last few months ever since I finished WLW and finally got into the thread!

I feel noobish every time we get into the metaphysics of the No-God.

[sckma]

Impotent*? But true, you make a good point.

I was more speaking from the perspective that Kellhus is more the antagonist (being a mad false prophet and all, or so we're lead to believe), against Achaiman anyway, who would be as much as a protagonist as the series has. I guess it came down to the fact that Akka was more true to who he was, he knows why he does things, and Kellhus is claiming he is saving people's souls, and deceiving everybody. Not to mention we don't know his motives, and what he actually intends on doing.

So, given that context, I'd be happy if it was all a double bluff, and he really is as commited as the Mandate Schoolmen.

Having said that, I agree with you Kal

[dratini147]

As for Dunyainic influence inspiring Kiyuth, it need not be all Moe's doing; he could have tasked Maithanet with planting those seeds. Though only half-Dunyain, Maitha would not only have had the ability to orchestrate that event, but as Shriah would have been in the best position to do so.

[Francis Buck]

Alright, something I'm a little unclear on: Is Mekeritrig actually part of the Consult, or is he just sort of off on his own now? Do we know how he's able to control Sranc? Is it magical, Tekne, or is he just doing it through "normal" means (like he trained them or something)?

[Happy Ent]

Mek is definitely part of the Consult, or at least we have no reason to believe that he is no longer part of it.

… and to strengthen that: Mek is one of the founding members and leaders of the Consult. We see him briefly in Bakker’s recent short story The False Sun. In some sense, it’s all his fault. (Since it was he who seduced the Mangaëcca to reopen the Arc, freeing the two remaining Inchoroi.)

The Consult top guys are the human Shaeönanra, the Nonman Mek, and the Inchoroi brothers Aurax, and Aurang.

As for controlling Scranc, I don’t think its much different from controlling humans. There is the added twist that the Inchoroi probably built some kind of automatic deference into them, so Sranc are automatically dominated by Inchoroi.

(Bakker is fascinated by things like transhumanism and the Singularity. He’s thought this through. If you build an intelligent “other” life-form, better hardwire automatic deference into them. Bakker, being Bakker, solves this by co-opting the sexual pleasure centres of the Tekne creatures into this. Apparently, you don’t organise rebellion against a concept that your were built to find insanely hot. This is among Bakker’s cutest ideas, I think.)

Can Sranc be controlled by other means? Sure. They form clans, so they clearly have dominance structures built into them. The Nonmen could even have some Tekne artefacts, which would then trivialise all of this. Mek, being the Nonman who released the Inchoroi, is probably holy to the Sranc, even though they may not rationalise it like that. The Sranc are not mindless, remember that Mek used one of them as his elju, his book, but like Cleric uses the Captain.

I really want to read a short story about Moe’s time with the Sranc. (Or do I? I have to take a shower now.)

[Darzin]

I really want to read a short story about Moe’s time with the Sranc.

This would be awesome, I've often wondered just how smart Sranc are. As they do have clans granted its very primitive but so are humans without civilization. I wonder if humans taught then similar to the nonmen tutelage if you could have an actual Scranc society.

[Castel]

This would be awesome, I've often wondered just how smart Sranc are. As they do have clans granted its very primitive but so are humans without civilization. I wonder if humans taught then similar to the nonmen tutelage if you could have an actual Scranc society.

I doubt it. The Sranc seem to have an in-built urge to rape and kill. I don't think that you can manage that without access to Tekne,. Even the Consult seem to just throw them at the peoples they want dead.

I was more speaking from the perspective that Kellhus is more the antagonist (being a mad false prophet and all, or so we're lead to believe), against Achaiman anyway, who would be as much as a protagonist as the series has. I guess it came down to the fact that Akka was more true to who he was, he knows why he does things, and Kellhus is claiming he is saving people's souls, and deceiving everybody. Not to mention we don't know his motives, and what he actually intends on doing.

EDIT: The case for Kellhus being an antagonist is very very open. Achaiman himself has no deeper justification for his actions and as far as we can see Kellhus is trying to save humanity, lies notwithstanding. Achaiman has yet to prove anything. At best he's trying to make sure that that's his actual motivation but more likely he just wants revenge.

[Madness]

Some teasers?

Gal, Plains of - A great expanse of grassland to the north of the Cerish Sea (TTT Glossary, p556).

Kig'krinaki - A Sranc tribe from the plains of Gal (p578).

Xoagi'i - A Sranc tribe from the Plains of Gal (p635).

Suskara - A vast region of broken plains and highlands between Atrithau and the Jiunati Steppe, inhabited by numerous tribes of Sranc, some of which are tributary to the so-called Sranc King of Urskugog (p622).

In the absence of their Maker's imperatives, they establish hierarchy among themselves?

[Happy Ent]

Kig'krinaki - A Sranc tribe from the plains of Gal (p578).

Xoagi'i - A Sranc tribe from the Plains of Gal (p635).

These are the named Scranc tribes that have been the rivals of the Werigda “since time immemorial.” (The Werigda are the human tribe that Aengelas belongs to, of whom Aurang makes a womb at the end of Warrior Prophet.)

[Rhom]

These are the named Scranc tribes that have been the rivals of the Werigda “since time immemorial.” (The Werigda are the human tribe that Aengelas belongs to, of whom Aurang makes a womb at the end of Warrior Prophet.)

Arrrrrrgh! More proof that I have to make time for a re-read. None of this is even remotely familiar to me!!!!

[Francis Buck]

Arrrrrrgh! More proof that I have to make time for a re-read. None of this is even remotely familiar to me!!!!

Lol, I'm the same way dude. I just finished re-reading PON for the first time, and I still didn't even know that there named Sranc tribes, let alone a fucking Sranc king.

[Madness]

Lol, your synopsis is inspiring, HE. Touche. I'm interested as well in the Sranc King of Urskugog, Francis...

Rhom, don't be so hard on yourself... though, the Slog of Slogs. We're usually talking about handfuls of sentences out of hundred of thousands of words - just absorb. Be the sponge ;).

[Rhom]

If you're someone who is OK w/ Bakker, I think the rereads are pretty essential. There's just too much to get in one time through.

I've read each book three times, and there are still things that I miss until I see it on a message board.

For example, I'd totally missed that there'd been one skin spy w/ a soul, but that they'd not been able to duplicate it. I do wonder what we're to make of that.

In my younger days, rereads were a common occurrance for me. I read books 1-10 of WoT multiple times. (That's a long re-read.) I read LotR and the Silmarrillion at least four times. ASoIaF through SoS got a re-read "just because" and then another just before AFFC.

However, much like my days of spending 5 hours a night playing WoW compared to my inability to even play 2-3 hours a week of any video game now... most of my reading schedule is spent trying to catch up with all the recommendations I get on this board. I do think I will need to make room for Second Apocalypse at some point soon. Probably after A Memory of Light in January.

[lokisnow]

Re: Moe, Cnaiur, Conphas, Skauros and Kiyuth.

It's all there in the subtext of Chapter Six of TDTCB.

Cnaiur years before had crushed the Kianane as King of Tribes. In the years since--hell the text implies this revelation amongst the Scylvendie leadership has happened that day--secret knowledge of his affair with Moenghus has become public knowledge and is used to ridicule and discredit him. His triumph as King of Tribes is inverted and transformed into a tragedy, it is no longer holy to the people because a new narrative has taken hold that his victory was against custom and therefore something to be despised. Note that this discrediting of Cnaiur is identical to the basic exploitation of the Trackless/Track metaphor that Kellhus later attempts to use on Cnaiur and that Moenghus used on him originally.

Also note that Cnaiur triumphed over the Kianene as King of Tribes because he did NOT act as Conphas or Xunnurit outline that Scylvendi must act. In other words he was not vulnerable to the tactics of psychology that Conphas relies on.

It is only when Cnaiur's voice is silenced and the experiences of Zirkata discredited and circumvented that Conphas' victory is enabled.

Isn't it strange that the thirty year old events of a distant remote village, events never spoken of (because Cnaiur would obviously kill anyone who did so) suddenly become public knowledge at the absolutely crucial moment that will destroy the Scylvendi for a generation and in so doing enable the success of the holy war? If these events were so well known why was Cnaiur not stopped earlier, how did he become King of Tribes?

And how on earth would Scylvendi in the equivalent of Florida have any clue about the events in the equivalent of Massachusetts. In a pre-modern world Cnaiur's secret should be safe. But it is not.

Isn't it strange.

[Sci-2]

I've never reread any of these books, just some key passages. Not that there's a lot of filler, but I feel like the key parts of the narrative that we talk about usually only rely on specific sections.

[Sci-2]

Both.

[Latan]

Cnaiur's secret is known because his uncle saw his reaction to Moenghus that night, and has ever since been telling people at every opportunity what happened between them. That is why his family tried to kill him on his ascension to the white yaksh, and doubtless this story traveled along with the stories of his battlefield prowess. If only to make people feel superior to a warrior with so fearsome a reputation.